It's clear reading some posts over the past few years on here that standards and expectations have crept lower and lower, this season as a whole has not been acceptable.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Quick, go get Paul Lambert, he's done the same thing. Oh wait, he was sacked by the same club in 2021.
Yes, that's how we should make decisions! Let's all make comparisons regarding completely different situations that happened once just because the end result was the same!
I didn't respond to the question about the Arsenal invincibles as it was rendered pointless by the fact you had asked a question that was already answered in the first message you quoted I.e The Bayern team of 2012/2013 was better.
I'm not sure what "say post" means. Well I am, it means nothing but I'll let you define what it means for you.
Any further questions?
But we are miles off challenging for the league and have been since 2013. Of course we want to be there but even when we are finishing 2/3 place we are still 10’s of points behind the leaders.
Injuries this season really can’t be swatted away as an ‘excuse’. It has been unprecedented just how many players have been out and how long term the injuries have been. Of course that has a knock on effect on performance.
And the thing is - players will be injured too next season
We'll just have to wait for the season after, and then the one after, etc, according to his apologists.
But he did choose the players, who whether we like it or not, not only cost as much as they did, but also didn't provide a return on investment a manager and club would demand of a £170m investment. Imagine if the £146m spent on Antony and Mount alone over the past two summers, would've been spent elsewhere such as striker. Therefore ETH has to take responsibility for the choices he has made, which means our league position can be used to evaluate whether he made the right choices.
I mean it's shocking to me (although I guess it shouldn't be considering how bad we've been overall for a decade?)
Countless posters in here are saying "there isn't an obvious upgrade" as if we didn't just have the worst season in the modern history of the club by almost every metric apart from points (where we were 2 off that record as well). It's not like we are trying to sack a manager getting top 4 and competing with the top teams every year but can't get over the hump.
And you know this how?
I was ETH out for a good portion of the season, but that clearly makes me a top red.
Since you're such a good mind reader fella, maybe you should sign up for those ESP shows were they talk to the dead and look for long lost releatives. You'd fit right in
He also knocked Ten Hag and his amazing Ajax side out of Europe with fecking Tottenham.
Keep him another season...if he shits the bed, they can talk to McKenna, Angie, InzahgiNagelsmann etc.
This is disingenuous nonsense.
There has been plenty of acceptance that the injuries have been a huge hindrance this year, even from those who think it’s time for him move on. I also haven’t seen anyone claiming we should be expecting to win the league every year. You seem to be arguing against things you have completely made up in your own head.
Many of the main criticisms of him on this thread have been fairly detailed and nuanced critiques of his tactical failings - for example his failure to adapt our tactics and provide more protection for our defence in response to our injury crisis. Try addressing the points people have actually argued instead of trying to strawman them.
Injuries still don’t explain the insistence on midfield tactics leaving us so wide open. No matter how we slice it, 8th is far too low of a finish and then add in the fact of a -1 GD, less than 60 goals for, and a record 14 losses.
At least you are honest though to admit that you change your opinion like the wind and should probably be ignored on this subject.
Damn, I thought the short numbered points would help you too.
Anyhow, we’ve sorted that you think the Leverkusen team (schooled by Atalanta) are better than the mid 70s Bayern team who most say are one of the best club sides ever… Maier, Beckenbauer, Hoeness, Schwarzenback, Rummenigge, Gerd Muller (the bulk of the 74 WC winning team). Ok
Second point/question was very clear previously but you skipped it first time. If you think Leverkusen are “factually” better because they went unbeaten, do you think Arsenal 2004 were a better team than United 99? (same logic).
Still holding back on the “correct way to quote” too.
(Edit.
To be clear, I think we/Ten Hag have had a very poor league season. A lot has been injuries/some crap decisions, a lot has been his fault.. tactics, subs, Antony)
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They don’t, he should have changed from a wide open 433 once injuries hit. Big mistake that hurt us.
Should have been more pragmatic when key players were injured and won/drew ugly
Urm he won the FA Cup and Pep isn't available to take over. Who cares that we turned out humiliating performances weekly despite spending half a billion on his vision.
We can only get a manager who has won the league or champions league at his last 4 clubs. Not good enough to improve on that brilliance.
I don't know, it's just strange how much a single cup final has shifted so many opinions. People love to go on about how cup competitions often can be random or don't always have the best teams winning them, and that the league is what proves which teams are in the correct pecking order (when it suited us). But now that we scraped the FA cup, the entire league campaign/CL campaign is forgiven and the manager should stay? What the feck kind of decision making process is that? So if Ortega doesn't screw up and Haaland's shot goes off the crossbar and in suddenly that means you're Ten Hag out, but because that didn't happen he now stays? People need to give their heads a wobble.
Be Ten Hag in if you want or Ten Hag out if you want, but the thought of a single result either way shifting the opinion is just absurd.
Be Ten Hag in if you want or Ten Hag out if you want, but the thought of a single result either way shifting the opinion is just absurd.
There's no one out there able to improve us, don't you realize that? It's impossible, Ten Hag had U14 players in his starting lineup from all of our injuries he did the best he could!
Injuries are also a poor excuse given that we just beat City and the only long term injured player to return was Martinez. What it shows is that ETH got his tactics horribly wrong when we got a grand total of zero points against Bournemouth, West Ham, Forrest, Fulham, Brighton and Palace.
Football fans for you. Ineos need to ignore the noise and come to their own decision.
Damn, I thought the short numbered points would help you too.
Anyhow, we’ve sorted that you think the Leverkusen team (schooled by Atalanta) are better than the mid 70s Bayern team who most say are one of the best club sides ever… Maier, Beckenbauer, Hoeness, Schwarzenback, Rummenigge, Gerd Muller (the bulk of the 74 WC winning team). Ok
Second point/question was very clear previously but you skipped it first time. If you think Leverkusen are “factually” better because they went unbeaten, do you think Arsenal 2004 were a better team than United 99? (same logic).
Still holding back on the “correct way to quote” too.
I'll answer the bottom part first to help you out. When replying to multiple different points made in a post either quote them individually using the quote function or if you just click reply then make it clear which parts you are responding to and don't go back and forth so much.
Gerd Muller was one hell of a goalscorer maybe we should keep Ten Hag.
For the second time the thing you are saying hasn't been responded to (re Arsenal) is very directly responded to in the message you are quoting. I don't believe Arsenal of 2004 were better than Man Utd 1999 and I don't think Leverkusen 2024 are better than Bayern 2013.
*We are playing a little bit here but to be very real for a second as I won't waste much more time. You are trying very hard to pin me down to a gotcha moment (amusingly it isn't working). Leverkusen this season got the second highest points total in the history of the Bundesliga and went undefeated. If you don't think that is a clear example that they were a unique team to be competing against then believe what you want. They clearly were which is what I was obviously pointing out and this is a bush I will not continue beating around.
If an entire system both attacking and defending is built upon a single good ball playing CB, and you don't have ANYONE else that can replicate what he supposedly brings, then the system itself sucks.
Regardless, Martinez isn't a great high line defender anyways so it's not like would have suddenly turned into Arsenal defensively even if he was fit.
That's all I can hope for (and honestly think they have, the reports coming out today that they haven't are BS in my opinion)
All the while banishing an £80m player to Dortmund, who is now playing for a CL trophy.
Additionally, the player profiles he was after directly relate to his tactical failings. They’re not an unfortunate coincidence - they’re a symptom of the tactical approach that has resulted in such a poor league campaign. Virtually everyone could see our midfield needed reinforcement - it was too open, leaving our defence brutally exposed too often, with an imbalance of attacking versus defensive midfielders. So why on earth was Mount identified as the sort of midfielder to prioritize?
It didn’t make much sense at the time, but many of us gave him the benefit of the doubt and backed him assuming he had a plan. Turns out his master plan was just to engineer an even more wide open midfield than ever before. And then to refuse to change it when going through a defensive injury crisis. And we’ve seen where that’s left us and it’s not pretty.
The fans that want him out will turn on the new guy after about another 2 years and be saying the same things about him. If the club had listened to these, SAF would have been sacked before he ever got going. ETH had terrible luck this year with injuries. That's not his fault, it's just bad luck.
That is fair actually, it's amazing that I got to play a couple of games for Utd this season in midfield and from personal experience I can tell you all that Ten Hag is a great lad with top clobber.
Agreed. He let Fred go as well, which was bonkers, given the amount of injuries we've had.
How bad was his luck with injuries? Was it unprecedented?
For the record I didn't, truthfully I was fully behind him confidence wise until we came out last summer and made Mount a priority
I was moaning like a schoolchild in that transfer thread that it was a mistake, and it still boggles my mind that he thought the Mount/Fernandes dual 8 partnership would elevate us with Casemiro behind, much less that we made signing him with a year left on his deal such a priority that we also passed on an obvious CB upgrade in Kim (ironic because CB was our biggest issue injury wise this year, whereas Mount doesn't even play when fit now)
If the new guy finishes top four and competes for trophies, no one will turn on them. See ETH last year.
For the record I didn't, truthfully I was fully behind him confidence wise until we came out last summer and made Mount a priority
I was moaning like a schoolchild in that transfer thread that it was a mistake, and it still boggles my mind that he thought the Mount/Fernandes dual 8 partnership would elevate us with Casemiro behind, much less that we made signing him with a year left on his deal such a priority that we also passed on an obvious CB upgrade in Kim (ironic because CB was our biggest issue injury wise this year, whereas Mount doesn't even play when fit now)
I was so desperate to be on board that I even defended the Mount signing. I knew it didn't make sense but did genuine mental gymnastics to defend it.
I would love nothing more than to have any sort of belief that Ten Hag can do the job. He seems like a good man.
He has just proven he can't do it.
Yeah this is why I find it ridiculous that people seem to think I'd be upset if he stays and we come out like gangbusters the first few months next year flying near the top of the table playing great stuff. I literally WANTED him from Ajax after we fired Ole, he was my top choice. I just think we have been given overwhelming evidence in multiple avenues that he's not up to it, and I absolutely abhore the idea of "giving him the first few months next year" where we most likely will have the same issues we've had for a calendar year now and have to end up sacking him after a shit start to the year in December while scrambling for an interim. The thought of wasting another year on blind hope (because god knows we haven't seen evidence to point to) makes me want to punch a wall.
Doesn't change the fact that he's an absolute tw@t
Nobody turned on Arteta when he finished 8th and look where Arsenal are now. Nobody turned on SAF when he finished 13th. Well actually, they did but thankfully, social media wasn't around back then.
He did, and I said as much in my post. You can absolutely question the signings from a perspective of have they been good enough. Our whole window last summer was weird for me. Mount was a bizarre way to open the window. Spending on Onana was also unnecessary- especially when it was clear as day from his 1st season that we needed goals in the team to kick on. That never happened, but the price we payed for his targets isn’t on him. If he wants Antony for example, and the club say they can get Antony it’s unrealistic to expect the manager to turn round and go ‘ no that’s too much for this lad, I’ve changed my mind’. Erik wanted Antony because he knew his game, his strengths and abilities and he knew he could trust him to work and to listen. That’s fair enough even if Antony hasn’t worked out.
But it’s very harsh to say ‘ he spent £400m ‘ when he wasn’t involved and we know getting rinsed for transfers has been Uniteds MO under the glazers.
Read and understand the post I was replying to.
You missed my “edit”… trying to be balanced too.
No gotcha, that was just a tangent from your second best comment.. I don’t think they are and gave two off the top of my head examples that’s all.
Remember this started with you talking about winning and Tuchel hence my reply of an FA Cup vs nothing but if you don’t want to cover all points/claims you made, that’s ok, you’ve got a lot of posters to reply to?
Of course they will and rightly if the football regresses and the tactics make no sense.
SAF is a one in a million. We can't hire the next one because there will be no other. He was such a rarity the club can't be held hostage to the notion that all a manager needs is more time.
Out of the managers we've sacked since he retired, who do you honestly think would have went on to replicate a modicum of the success SAF had? The answer is nobody, and that includes EtH.
If the new guy underperforms, what is wrong with wanting him out? SAF was one of a kind manager. He got Aberdeen an European trophy. Did ETH win any European trophies with Ajax? Giving ETH (or any other manager) 5 years isn't going to automatically turn them into a SAF regen.
Of course. Because we had Casemiro and McT doing what Deklan Rice or prime N'golo Kante needed to do. And Maguire and Evans not doing what players like Martinez and Virgil van Dijk do. But he played it anyway because he thought to do otherwise was to waste the season and put us back further. He thought he could get a tune out of the players he had and he was wrong.
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