Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[pocco]

I mean if you had peak Kante or Declan Rice and a defence that pushed up behind it could work really well. Instead we have Casemiro, Maguire, Evans. Three less suited players you would struggle to find.

Dortmund are one example of a team that don't have Kante or Rice (or anybody near as good), have slower CBs than us, and yet they manage just fine to play a high line. It's just excuses. When we had our first choice defence we still had the same issues.

 

[Ali Dia]

Yes, good point.

And one I would think they've considered.

Keeping him is a huge gamble for them.

If they're forced to sack him after a few months (because - well - the blatantly subpar performances and results just keep coming), they will look like absolute morons for not just sacking him straight away (which is what most fans - and most journos/pundits too - lean towards here and now).

I’d say they will give him the first half of next season and move for McKenna depending on how they are both doing at that time. If McKenna has them hanging on and ETH is more of the same i think that’s the move that will be made

 

[stevoc]

It makes sense to keep him. For now.

This isn’t a free pass, this isn’t lowering standards, it’s a renaissance for the club and Ten Hag has the chance to be our Rembrandt if he’s successful. Otherwise he’ll be remembered for his brand of transition football failing.

That wouldn't be the clubs problem though. Ineos won't be thinking of keeping him on to give him a chance to redeem his reputation.

 

[pocco]

It wasn't the top four bit I took issue with.

Which part of his post didn't you agree with?

 

[stevoc]

The only reasons to keep him are:
- player replacement is higher on the agenda (like it should be). Especially the players that might bring their 'A' game for a new coach being the sort of players that we need to stop indulging.
- there's no inspiring candidates out there.

Why would players replacement be higher on the agenda if Ten Hag stays?

And what's an inspiring candidate in your opinion?

 

[Alex99]

Which part of his post didn't you agree with?

Literally the only other bit.

 

[pocco]

It makes sense to keep him. For now.

This isn’t a free pass, this isn’t lowering standards, it’s a renaissance for the club and Ten Hag has the chance to be our Rembrandt if he’s successful. Otherwise he’ll be remembered for his brand of transition football failing.

Yeah I think the mask has finally slipped and you're outing yourself as only backing him on some ridiculous fantasy of yours.

Could you imagine Ashworth or Wilcox telling SJR that we need to stick with him because he could be our Rembrandt They'll get sacked on the spot.

 

[Garethw]

INEOS have high standards and will want their own staff.

I think they've already decided ETH is gone (at the very top level) but obviously won't say anything with a cup final on the horizon, the club isn't exactly leak proof.

ETH has been a dismal failure this season by every possible measure, there's no discussion to be had.

All of the speculation could have been killed off weeks ago with a simple statement that ETH will remain in charge next season regardless of the outcome of the remaining fixtures.

The fact that hasn’t happened makes me think that they’ve decided to get rid of him after the cup final.

 

[MadDogg]

There have been several posted in this thread.

I suspect if you consider injuries an excuse not an explanation, despite seeing other clubs struggle during their periods of more intense concentrated injury, that no matter what others say and explain your view is pretty firm.

And that’s fine.

There is nothing I or anyone else can say to soften this, Ten Hag, INEOS and the players need to perform next season to win anyone over. It’s futile trying to convince anyone otherwise.

Injuries absolutely are a good excuse for us not being as good as what we wanted to be.

Injuries absolutely are not a good excuse for just how bad we have been.

That seems to be the huge disconnect between people who want him out and those who want to keep him. The latter seem to accept that the injures we've had mean this entire season was an utter write-off and no matter what happened and no matter how bad we got there's no real blame for ETH. I do wonder if there was a limit to that though. Would you want him out if we were near the relegation zone? Because based on our actual performances we could easily have been down near it (not in it, but not 'that' far above it), but individual player quality (and poor finishing by opponents) led to us getting a lot of points that we didn't actually deserve.

 

[Teja]

All of the speculation could have been killed off weeks ago with a simple statement that ETH will remain in charge next season regardless of the outcome of the remaining fixtures.

The fact that hasn’t happened makes me think that they’ve decided to get rid of him after the cup final.

Yeah +1. They've purged basically the whole leadership. Made no indications that they'd keep Ten Hag. I really don't think he'll be around. It's a sensible decision to leave him in charge for a cup final.

 

[pocco]

Literally the only other bit.

So top 4 is fine, but it's completely inconceivable that we could finish third or second? We finished 3rd literally 12 months ago and spent £200m+ since then. And yet you can't even accept its a possibility? feck off with this shit.

Unless... you think Ten Hag has made us worse??

 

[Gandalf]

I’d say they will give him the first half of next season and move for McKenna depending on how they are both doing at that time. If McKenna has them hanging on and ETH is more of the same i think that’s the move that will be made

McKenna will have a new job within the next couple of weeks so that ship will have sailed if we wait until the middle of next season. Mid season changes are often a disaster as nobody worth hiring is available and you get stuck paying too much in compensation along with paying off the guy you are getting rid of.

Erik has 1 year to go on his contract and is agitating to be backed with an extension, if he stays we will give him that extension as he would be a lame duck without it and then when we do fire him it will cost us more and we will have wasted another season going nowhere. The time to sort this out is after the final whistle on Saturday, there are options out there and a chance for a proper reset and we will regret it if we do not act.

 

[Alex99]

So top 4 is fine, but it's completely inconceivable that we could finish 3rd or second? We finished 3rd literally 12 months ago and spent £200m+ since then. And yet you can't even accept its a possibility? feck off with this shit.

We can't simultaneously brand the transfers under Ten Hag an unmitigated disaster and huge waste of money, then describe those same transfers as £400 million worth of squad improvements.

Similarly, we can't simultaneously claim to have overpeformed to get 3rd last season, claim to have done so again to get 8th this season (which people have repeatedly done with xPts), and use this as evidence of how bad things are at the club, and also go "this squad is only a couple of players off a title challenge", which is what 2nd and 3rd were this season.

We might get 3rd (or even 2nd) but it will be in the manner of our more recent finishes there under Ten Hag, Solskjaer and Mourinho (i.e. other teams being worse, more than us being particularly impressive). It will take big drop offs from a number of clubs and huge improvements from us to get 2nd or 3rd next season.

Realistically, we're not getting close to City and Arsenal, who I expect to be the two in the title picture again. I expect Liverpool to drop off, but can't predict by how much, but I also expect Chelsea and Newcastle to find themselves in the picture for top four next season. That's four teams (including us) competing for third already, and that's before we include Villa and Spurs.

I think it's delusional to think we're close to being good enough for 2nd or 3rd.

Edit: I didn't use any of my previous posts in this exchange to defend Ten Hag. You're another in a growing collection of posters who think anything not explicitly critical of him must be in defense of him.

 

[lex talionis]

If there were an obvious upgrade available to us, now would be the time to sack and strike. But there are no obvious upgrades and we may well be better off waiting until next summer or even during the season if an opportunity arises. But what we cannot do is allow ten Hag to have any further control over transfer activity. Input, sure, but control, no. For me where ten Hag failed the club are his acquisitions, starting with Antony.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I think it's delusional to think we're close to being good enough for 2nd or 3rd.

Based on the improvements we've made along the process this year, and assuming we keep Ten Hag next season, this is undeniable fact.

 

[Bastian]

clearly that extra time to train was invaluable towards the 2nd of this season as we crashed out of europe completely. If they keep EtH for next season assuming that magically patterns of play will come, would be completely crazy to me. Hasnt shown anything yet of that nature. We get outplayed damn near every week by other teams who actually show a style of play

I mean that regardless of whether ETH is at the helm or a new manager. With regards to the second half of this season we could hardly field a fully fit XI so training would have been compromised a bit by that, with us probably having to draft in a host of youngsters just to make up the numbers.

I am also assuming that we'll be extremely busy in the summer and get rid of as many players who do not fit tactically for whatever the vision will be going forward, and those who aren't good enough for said vision.

 

[DSG]

I mean there's plenty to criticize him for, but when you try to push an untrue narrative it just makes you look silly.

Let's break down that "400m"

2022/23

-Antony: Probably the biggest mistake we've ever made on the transfer market value wise, but it wasn't ETH who splashed 80m on him, as the Glazers panicked got involved in our transfer dealings after the two opening defeats to Brentford and Brighton, which resulted in us paying up a ridiculous fee for Antony.

-Casemiro: He was identified and recommended to him by the club, and he okayed it. Obviously not great value, but I don't see what ETH should've done. We had no one added to the midfield other than Eriksen at that point, and similarly to the Antony deal, there was panic, the club offered a great DM to him, and he okayed it. If you think the manager should've said "not for 60 million", then you probably think it's like FM or FIFA. Want to add that it was obviously more of a short-term signing rather than building the squad for the future in Casemiro's case.

-Malacia: Cheap punt for 13m, has been generally promising when he played. I don't think ETH is at fault for a potentially botched operation that aggravated his injury or if Malacia is missing due to mental health reasons, similarly to Sancho last year. Good value for a young player for the present and long-term.

-Martínez: 49m initial fee, he's an incredible player who's great at either CB or that LCB/LB role that Arsenal and City play. Great signing. Good value for a young player for the present and long-term.

-Eriksen: Good signing for free, was very useful up until his injury.

-Sabitzer, Weghorst, Butland, Dubravka: Largely irrelevant loan deals. Weghorst was useful because we had no striker. Sabitzer had some good performances in those 6 months he spent at the club. Around 5.25m in loan fees for these players.

2023/24

Hojlund: One of, if not the best young striker we could've bought as an alternative to Kane. Probably similarly to Casemiro, it was a recommendation from the scouting department and ETH decided to go for it. Very shrewd bit of business for 64m, for a 20 year old who's ready to contribute from day 1 and is a 30 goal per season striker in a functional system where he doesn't have to feed off scraps. Good value for a young player for the present and long-term.

Mount: 55m for a player in the last year of his contract. Probably just about value if you look at his ability, CV, and age. Can't really get a 24 year old midfielder with his ability and achievements in football for less than that these days. Him being injured all year is obviously something that no one saw coming, and the player hasn't had the chance to make an impact yet. Value for a young player for the present and long-term, but I'd personally exclude his transfer fee from the total amount spent on transfers so far, when judging ETH.

Onana: Very good technical keeper, ball-player and passer that's a necessity for any possession-based side these days. 43m was just about value for him, again considering his ability, achievements in football, and age.

Amrabat: 7m loan fee for him, well, he's done well when he wasn't playing left-back or a single pivot #6 in that dysfunctional 4-3-3. I admit he's not a single-pivot DM that we require, but in a 4-2-3-1 that we've played in the last few games, and the whole of last year, he's good value for a potential 17m fee if the deal is made permanent.

Bayindir: Around 4m, not really a relevant signing once again.

Reguilón: Free loan because of an injury emergency situation. Not really relevant and did okay when he played.

Evans: Free signing, not really relevant to our long-term squad building anyways.

All in all, I'd say around 300-310m was spent on young players with potential long-term, key roles in the squad, and around 250m if you exclude Mount from the list...which I personally think is fair. 250m in 4 windows for a top 3 biggest club in the world going through a big rebuild, is honestly a joke. Even if it was 400m, it's nothing special. We should've been going for 4-5, or even more significant arrivals per summer, not the 3 per season policy the Glazers had instilled, revealed by Ole in his interview. Or at least should've added significant players in the winter windows, like Chelsea and other clubs managed to.

Malacia, Martínez, Hojlund, Mount, Onana. I think these are the signings you should judge him on. Casemiro was a mistake value wise, but not solely down to him. Antony was a huge mistake, but once again, not solely down to him. Hojlund will 99% be a huge success, but not solely down to him, as I really doubt it was ETH who initially mentioned his name to the club.

Free transfers and loans are totally irrelevant IMO and should be dismissed. Players also generally need time, and always need a good environment they can excel in. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that those 5 players I listed can just turn shit overnight.

You should have said, “Let’s break down that 400m in a completely subjective and biased way”.

All / most of these transfers were directly connected to Ten Hag. Hojlund’s agent is Ten Hag’s brother — or the same agency at least.

 

[Blood Mage]

If he stays Ineos are putting massive pressure on themselves because the Glazers would have sacked him by now.

 

[Jev]

Similarly, we can't simultaneously claim to have overpeformed to get 3rd last season, claim to have done so again to get 8th this season (which people have repeatedly done with xPts), and use this as evidence of how bad things are at the club, and also go "this squad is only a couple of players off a title challenge", which is what 2nd and 3rd were this season.

Nobody is saying we’ve overperformed this season. People say we’ve overperformed our xPts/performances, which is true but also not at all the same thing.

 

[Alex99]

Nobody is saying we’ve overperformed this season. People say we’ve overperformed our xPts/performances, which is true but also not the same thing.

How are they not the same thing?

 

[Rojofiam]

You should have said, “Let’s break down that 400m in a completely subjective and biased way”.

All / most of these transfers were directly connected to Ten Hag. Hojlund’s agent is Ten Hag’s brother — or the same agency at least.

Hojlund switched to SEG after he learned of United's interest in him. We didn't sign him because ETH recommended him or because they share the same agency.

 

[Jev]

How are they not the same thing?

Because they’re just not, at all. Considering how bad we’ve been, 8th place is flattering us. In that sense we’ve overperformed our xPts. But we’ve severely underperformed by being as bad as we have been.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Chelsea showing more ambition than us.

 

[Alex99]

Because they’re just not, at all. Considering how bad we’ve been, 8th place is flattering us. In that sense we’ve overperformed our xPts. But we’ve severely underperformed by being as bad as we have been.

So we've underperformed but also overperformed? Got it.

 

[hobbers]

It makes sense to keep him. For now.

This isn’t a free pass, this isn’t lowering standards, it’s a renaissance for the club and Ten Hag has the chance to be our Rembrandt if he’s successful. Otherwise he’ll be remembered for his brand of transition football failing.

It makes no sense, it is a free pass and obviously its lowering standards.

Officially lower standards of football and basically results as West Ham

 

[Jev]

So we've underperformed but also overperformed? Got it.

You’re being deliberately obtuse in your attempt to defend ETH (and yes, that is what you are doing despite your denials). Overperforming means playing better and getting more points than you could expect with the material at your disposal. We’ve done neither this season, we’ve just gotten more a bit points than our terrible performances have merited. It’s really not that complex.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

De Zerbi going to Chelsea then. Or Tuchel. I’d take either.

 

[DSG]

Standard for the Caf. Follow the flock or you become fair game, even if your points are reasonable.

I get you guys complaining about being shouted down for an unpopular opinion, but the reason the Caf is doing that is because your defense of Erik is just a litany of excuses. Excuse after excuse for a guy getting paid 9m a year. If the worst PL finish in 35 years doesn’t get you canned at Manchester United then what will?

By absolving the manager of accountability, we show everyone in the club that mediocrity will be tolerated. That’s an ominous precedent to set.

 

[Leftback99]

For now I voted to keep him as i see no outstanding candidates to replace him..

Who would you actually class as an outstanding candidate if you could choose anyone?

We're trying to replace a manager that was lucky to finish 8th.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Similarly, we can't simultaneously claim to have overpeformed to get 3rd last season, claim to have done so again to get 8th this season (which people have repeatedly done with xPts), and use this as evidence of how bad things are at the club, and also go "this squad is only a couple of players off a title challenge", which is what 2nd and 3rd were this season.

Nobody is saying we’ve overperformed this season. People say we’ve overperformed our xPts/performances, which is true but also not at all the same thing.

How are they not the same thing?

The difference was Rashford's 17 goals. We were 6th last season according to the xPts table.

 

[Ali Dia]

McKenna will have a new job within the next couple of weeks so that ship will have sailed if we wait until the middle of next season. Mid season changes are often a disaster as nobody worth hiring is available and you get stuck paying too much in compensation along with paying off the guy you are getting rid of.

Erik has 1 year to go on his contract and is agitating to be backed with an extension, if he stays we will give him that extension as he would be a lame duck without it and then when we do fire him it will cost us more and we will have wasted another season going nowhere. The time to sort this out is after the final whistle on Saturday, there are options out there and a chance for a proper reset and we will regret it if we do not act.

I disagree. He’s not going to leave Ipswich for a random club without giving it a good lash there but he would have to leave for a top job. I don’t see Chelsea Spurs Arse Villa or any of the rest of them going for him.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

That wouldn't be the clubs problem though. Ineos won't be thinking of keeping him on to give him a chance to redeem his reputation.

I didn’t say it was? I’m just saying if he stays hopefully it’s the beginning of something good. The renaissance isn’t just for Ten Hag it’s the whole club that needs it post(ish) Glazers.

Yeah I think the mask has finally slipped and you're outing yourself as only backing him on some ridiculous fantasy of yours.

Could you imagine Ashworth or Wilcox telling SJR that we need to stick with him because he could be our Rembrandt They'll get sacked on the spot.

So I can’t be a bit creative and hopeful that the whole club does better?

Jesus the state of this forum if any kind of semi light hearted view of things, any sort of hope is quashed by the drones of “out”.

It’s not a fantasy to be hopeful that the club can start to make meaningful changes and heal a bit. A rebirth and rejection of past practices and if Ten Hag isn’t the man to help with this then whoever else can.

I just think you want to argue.

All of the speculation could have been killed off weeks ago with a simple statement that ETH will remain in charge next season regardless of the outcome of the remaining fixtures.

The fact that hasn’t happened makes me think that they’ve decided to get rid of him after the cup final.

It’s very frustrating and I’d just like it sorted.

Injuries absolutely are a good excuse for us not being as good as what we wanted to be.

Injuries absolutely are not a good excuse for just how bad we have been.

That seems to be the huge disconnect between people who want him out and those who want to keep him. The latter seem to accept that the injures we've had mean this entire season was an utter write-off and no matter what happened and no matter how bad we got there's no real blame for ETH. I do wonder if there was a limit to that though. Would you want him out if we were near the relegation zone? Because based on our actual performances we could easily have been down near it (not in it, but not 'that' far above it), but individual player quality (and poor finishing by opponents) led to us getting a lot of points that we didn't actually deserve.

Everyone will view this on a spectrum. Hence I’m not going to attempt to change anyone’s mind.

I can’t, the team and club may be able to.

But yeah there absolutely is a limit. Had we finished much further down even 10th for example I’d be saying Ten Hag out. I just think many are underestimating the impact of those injuries to our season.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

It makes no sense, it is a free pass and obviously its lowering standards.

Officially lower standards of football and basically results as West Ham

I’m not looking to change your mind. It’s just an acceptance of where we are. High standards and reality are important things to marry up.

 

[Leftback99]

But yeah there absolutely is a limit. Had we finished much further down even 10th for example I’d be saying Ten Hag out. I just think many are underestimating the impact of those injuries to our season.

We were very lucky to finish higher than 10th based on performances.

 

[AndyMUFC]

Pochettino being available makes things interesting for me.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

INEOS need to act now. I’d be shocked if they don’t have someone lined up.

 

[Gandalf]

I disagree. He’s not going to leave Ipswich for a random club without giving it a good lash there but he would have to leave for a top job. I don’t see Chelsea Spurs Arse Villa or any of the rest of them going for him.

Not a done deal but he is the only candidate seemingly in the running for Brighton right now with the bookies convinced it is when and not if he is announced although the reported Chelsea interest could turn his head.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

We were very lucky to finish higher than 10th based on performances.

I disagree. I think we’ve been very unlucky this season to be in a position where the players we are playing aren’t of the required standard.

And I’ve been very close to giving up completely which is why my stance is not being bothered either way if he stays or goes.

 

[Atheist]

Pochettino is sacked after a season but meanwhile we’re told we need to give Ten Hag many more seasons before he can deliver.

 

[despairingfool]

Sack ten hag Saturday, get pochettino in immediately before end of may.