Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[BenitoSTARR]

I love how you cling to the ‘he had to loan players and get free agents’ argument as if ETH got literally zero support in the market and had to dig into bargain bin all the time.

We bought him over £400m worth of players he largely picked himself (just like he wanted), with over half of the amount spent on players he had managed before.

But because he was forced to make two emergency loans (Weghorst and Reguilon) he’s apparently had to make do with bargain signings only.

Be objective here.

1. Is the squad Ten Hag inherited as good as that City one?
2. Has there been a greater turnover of players at City in those first two years?
3. Was the footballing structure at City pre Pep better than what Ten Hag inherited?

Theres your answer to the initial point raised. Which is why it’s a silly comparison.

I doubt you’ll answer those questions.

 

[AndySmith1990]

It could easily be Alonso failing here, we have problems upon problems within problems.

We have a lot of work to do; patience is needed regardless of the manager situation. Ten Hag is probably gone and I fully expect most in this thread to soon turn against the next manager when things aren‘t going his way.

I find posts like this a little pathetic. They give off an impression that you get upset when people criticise United managers.

Sincerely hope this sad cult of the manager shite ends one day

 

[AndySmith1990]

Be objective here.

1. Is the squad Ten Hag inherited as good as that City one?
2. Has there been a greater turnover of players at City in those first two years?
3. Was the footballing structure at City pre Pep better than what Ten Hag inherited?

Theres your answer to the initial point raised. Which is why it’s a silly comparison.

I doubt you’ll answer those questions.

Is the squad Klopp inherited as good as City's? Has there been a... Ah feck it. These daft arguments you make are so tiresome and detached from reality. Ten Hag will be sacked in a couple weeks anyway

 

[Leftback99]

It could easily be Alonso failing here, we have problems upon problems within problems.

We have a lot of work to do; patience is needed regardless of the manager situation. Ten Hag is probably gone and I fully expect most in this thread to soon turn against the next manager when things aren‘t going his way.

If the next manager also has us performing like a relegation candidate then yes he's very likely to get turned on.

 

[Stadjer]

Among the 5 managers we had (excluding interim) EtH is among the worst in every stat.

Goals per game - 4th, just above LVG.
Conceded - by far the worst
Win % - 2nd, only behind Jose
Loss % - 2nd, only Moyes lost more. Other 3 managers are not even close.
Points per game - 4th, only Moyes is behind.

Then other stats like Possession, shots, shots conceded he should be among the worst.

ETH also has the worst squad out of all those managers. Especially considering what he players he had to use this season because of all the injuries.

Doesnt mean ETH is doing a good job but if you compare all the squads, im not suprised he is amongst the worst in stats.

 

[Stadjer]

crazy by the end of the second season they already have like 2 solid teams that can challenge top 4. That's what money and top management/recruitment can do...

And breaking a few rules here and there

 

[stevoc]

I love how you cling to the ‘he had to loan players and get free agents’ argument as if ETH got literally zero support in the market and had to dig into bargain bin all the time.

We bought him over £400m worth of players he largely picked himself (just like he wanted), with over half of the amount spent on players he had managed before.

But because he was forced to make two emergency loans (Weghorst and Reguilon) he’s apparently had to make do with bargain signings only.

Also, Pep v ETH debates are utterly pointless. There are maybe 5 people on this forum who believe they are the same level of a manager, or in any way comparable.

Don't forget about Sabitzer, man's had to work on a shoestring budget. No manager in space, time and the history of the Cosmos could have did better under those circumstances.

Seriously though, what Pep, City and their 115 FFP charge breaching, financially doped, nation state backed sports washing project are/were able to do in the transfer market shouldn't be held up as an example of how an actual football club should work.

 

[roonster09]

ETH also has the worst squad out of all those managers. Especially considering what he players he had to use this season because of all the injuries.

Doesnt mean ETH is doing a good job but if you compare all the squads, im not suprised he is amongst the worst in stats.

He didn't have worst squad, he made squad look worse than what it is. That's how squads are rated.

It's all just excuses for his failures.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

crazy by the end of the second season they already have like 2 solid teams that can challenge top 4. That's what money and top management/recruitment can do...

And 115 charges…

This is what you’re up against if you want to win a PL now. A club that can buy a GK and say nah we need a new one within a season and make those transfers happen.

Is the squad Klopp inherited as good as City's? Has there been a... Ah feck it. These daft arguments you make are so tiresome and detached from reality. Ten Hag will be sacked in a couple weeks anyway

It’s a pointless argument which is why I’m not sure why @Alpha 1 tried to say Guardiola won in his second season.

It’s just a stupid comparison to make because we clearly aren’t at that level no matter which manager comes in.

I hope the position is sorted soon too.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Don't forget about Sabitzer, man's had to work on a shoestring budget. No manager in space, time and the history of the Cosmos could have did better under those circumstances.

Seriously though, what Pep, City and their 115 FFP charge breaching, financially doped, nation state backed sports washing project are/were able to do in the transfer market shouldn't be held up as an example of how an actual football club should work.

Unfortunately though that’s what we have to beat in the long run.

To be successful we need to be better than a club accused of cheating with the best manager in current world football with the best footballing structure and near limitless funds.

That’s the final boss.

 

[stevoc]

ETH also has the worst squad out of all those managers. Especially considering what he players he had to use this season because of all the injuries.

Doesnt mean ETH is doing a good job but if you compare all the squads, im not suprised he is amongst the worst in stats.

The backbone of Solskjaers United was Maguire, Lindelof, Fred, McTominay and Martial.

So you can say injuries have robbed us of players but this squad isn't the worst squad we've had in the last 10 years.

 

[stevoc]

Unfortunately though that’s what we have to beat in the long run.

To be successful we need to be better than a club accused of cheating with the best manager in current world football with the best footballing structure and near limitless funds.

That’s the final boss.

Yes but none of that is a defence for Ten Hag and his failures.

Ten Hag is the most backed manager in terms of control and resources post SAF. So you can't say a few loan signings are the reason he's struggling. Even SAF had to get the odd loan here and there to fill gaps in the squad.

 

[Stadjer]

The backbone of Solskjaers United was Maguire, Lindelof, Fred, McTominay and Martial.

So you can say injuries have robbed us of players but this squad isn't the worst squad we've had in the last 10 years.

Ole also had an unstopable Bruno, Martial who was actually very good and a more good than bad Rashford. Pogba was also part of Ole his squad eventhough Pogba was mostly injured during Ole his last period.

With all the injuries, this squad is the worst squad we had in my opinion.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Yes but none of that is a defence for Ten Hag and his failures.

Ten Hag is the most backed manager in terms of control and resources post SAF. So you can't say a few loan signings are the reason he's struggling. Even SAF had to get the odd loan here and there to fill gaps in the squad.

I wasn’t saying it to defend his failures I was saying it’s a stupid comparison to make at this point in time.

Theres plenty to criticise and compare to without us being silly about it and I don’t see the Guardiola comparisons as helpful as we’re nowhere near his first squad in terms of levels.

 

[Sarni]

Be objective here.

1. Is the squad Ten Hag inherited as good as that City one?
2. Has there been a greater turnover of players at City in those first two years?
3. Was the footballing structure at City pre Pep better than what Ten Hag inherited?

Theres your answer to the initial point raised. Which is why it’s a silly comparison.

I doubt you’ll answer those questions.

They had vastly different goals though, the comparison should be made relative to that. ETH did not need a squad as good as Pep's to achieve his goals which were much, much lower.

Pep joined a team that just recently won the league and his job was to take them to a new level where they'd also be competitive in Europe and win CL titles, on top of dominating Premier League and improving the team as well as developing their players to play a more modern, better brand of football. He has achieved all his goals.

Nobody ever expected that from ETH, his job was to establish us as a top 4 team, improve the squad and see us become more serious in Europe. He's failed to achieve all his goals. We are far from top 4, our squad got even worse despite spending large amount of money and we are the biggest joke in Europe.

It's a silly comparison because one is one of the best managers in history, and the other one is a mediocre manager. They don't belong in the same conversation unless we are comparing their hairline. There's no point to be made from comparing the two situations.

 

[Sarni]

Ole also had an unstopable Bruno, Martial who was actually very good and a more good than bad Rashford. Pogba was also part of Ole his squad eventhough Pogba was mostly injured during Ole his last period.

With all the injuries, this squad is the worst squad we had in my opinion.

Can't really use drop in Bruno's or Rashford's form to prove the squad is worse though, they are the same players and neither of them is at an age of decline, they've just been in bad form just like pretty much all of our players.

Pogba is a genuine loss, so is Fred and Martial, but we have replaced all of them with high value signings.

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

Don't forget about Sabitzer, man's had to work on a shoestring budget. No manager in space, time and the history of the Cosmos could have did better under those circumstances.

Seriously though, what Pep, City and their 115 FFP charge breaching, financially doped, nation state backed sports washing project are/were able to do in the transfer market shouldn't be held up as an example of how an actual football club should work.

Is that the same Sabitzer that is now in the Champions League final and played 11 games in the Champions League this season?

Ten Hag is just a shit coach.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

They had vastly different goals though, the comparison should be made relative to that. ETH did not need a squad as good as Pep's to achieve his goals which were much, much lower.

Pep joined a team that just recently won the league and his job was to take them to a new level where they'd also be competitive in Europe and win CL titles, on top of dominating Premier League and improving the team as well as developing their players to play a more modern, better brand of football. He has achieved all his goals.

Nobody ever expected that from ETH, his job was to establish us as a top 4 team, improve the squad and see us become more serious in Europe. He's failed to achieve all his goals. We are far from top 4, our squad got even worse despite spending large amount of money and we are the biggest joke in Europe.

It's a silly comparison because one is one of the best managers in history, and the other one is a mediocre manager. They don't belong in the same conversation unless we are comparing their hairline. There's no point to be made from comparing the two situations.

I agree it’s a stupid comparison to make.

As for goals it’s depends what INEOS have set out for him.

 

[M16Red]

Spoiler: YouTube; This guy explains it

 

[Sarni]

I agree it’s a stupid comparison to make.

As for goals it’s depends what INEOS have set out for him.

I don't imagine it's going to be lower than top 4 unless they lack ambition even more than our previous regime.

 

[ifightdragons]

Shouldn’t there be a 3rd option on the poll? Like win or lose the cup final he should stay?

If we're basing a sacking on one single game, that's incredibly poor club management.

This should be decided completely regardless of that one result.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

1. Has there been a greater turnover of players at City in those first two years?

There was more turnover at City, but both clubs had a lot of turnover. The additional turnover does not explain why one club improved massively in two years and the other one has regressed.

We also know from their careers that many of the players City signed were pretty good but not world-beaters. Guardiola was simply able to use them more effectively.

 

[Rista]

If we're basing a sacking on one single game, that's incredibly poor club management.

This should be decided completely regardless of that one result.

Bayern would have sacked their manager even if he won the CL. If we somehow fluke our way to a cup win this poll will be hilariously different.

 

[pocco]

It means what it means. We give Arsenal a hard time. Even with a decimated squad.

And when other coaches have been a bit less complimentary, what does that mean? One coach gave a step-by-step guide on how to trouble us just a couple of weeks ago. Other managers have spoke about the quality players we have, which flies in the face of the argument that the players are the problem.

You're just reading into it a bit too much, which I get because your side of the argument is severely lacking in support these days.

 

[pocco]

I still can't get over Ten Hag saying it would lack 'common sense' to sack him. This guy has to be the most arrogant, deluded twat we've had in charge (in fact, I can't remember many other failing managers coming out with crap like this at any other club). Jose is a miles better person than this guy, and look at all the criticism he got.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Yes but none of that is a defence for Ten Hag and his failures.

Ten Hag is the most backed manager in terms of control and resources post SAF. So you can't say a few loan signings are the reason he's struggling. Even SAF had to get the odd loan here and there to fill gaps in the squad.

ETH is gone in a few weeks as far as I’m concerned.

But this “ETH has been the most backed manager” line is relatively redundant statement. Backed by who ? Who is backing him ? The same failed people who have been sacked ? The owners who have been now sidelined by the probable eventual new one ?

Do you think being backed by Liverpool or city owners is the same as United ones ? Of course it’s not. When United spend 400 million , they probably get half that worth of signings cause the people who negotiate were useless. That’s not a managers fault.

United managers get less at a higher cost. United managers have to make do with players they don’t want and the club can’t get rid of. United managers have to make do with “this is what we could get you” signings that many of you act as though the managers really really wanted them.

United managers have to make do with less than excellence infrastructure. No amount of headline spending has been able to compensate for it.

 

[stevoc]

Ole also had an unstopable Bruno, Martial who was actually very good and a more good than bad Rashford. Pogba was also part of Ole his squad eventhough Pogba was mostly injured during Ole his last period.

With all the injuries, this squad is the worst squad we had in my opinion.

Any squad with a significant amount of injuries like we have now would be a contender.

I still think this squad bar the injuries isn't the worst we've had.

 

[stevoc]

I wasn’t saying it to defend his failures I was saying it’s a stupid comparison to make at this point in time.

Theres plenty to criticise and compare to without us being silly about it and I don’t see the Guardiola comparisons as helpful as we’re nowhere near his first squad in terms of levels.

OK fair enough mate

 

[stevoc]

Is that the same Sabitzer that is now in the Champions League final and played 11 games in the Champions League this season?

Ten Hag is just a shit coach.

I was being sarcastic mate. While I think he's completely failed at United I don't think he's a shit coach. He's just a good coach that's been found out at the top level. There's no shame in that.

 

[pocco]

ETH is gone in a few weeks as far as I’m concerned.

But this “ETH has been the most backed manager” line is relatively redundant statement. Backed by who ? Who is backing him ? The same failed people who have been sacked ? The owners who have been now sidelined by the probable eventual new one ?

Do you think being backed by Liverpool or city owners is the same as United ones ? Of course it’s not. When United spend 400 million , they probably get half that worth of signings cause the people who negotiate were useless. That’s not a managers fault.

United managers get less at a higher cost. United managers have to make do with players they don’t want and the club can’t get rid of. United managers have to make do with “this is what we could get you” signings that many of you act as though the managers really really wanted them.

United managers have to make do with less than excellence infrastructure. No amount of headline spending has been able to compensate for it.

Backed with money is what I guess they are saying.

With regards to the price of some of our signings, I agree they are extortionate. However, other clubs pay big money for players. City got priced out of Paqueta last summer, Arsenal paid big money for Rice, Chelsea for most of their players, Liverpool paid big money for some of theirs. We are always going to get charged a premium because we are a desperate club - our biggest mistake is not walking away. But ETH seems to be culpable in that approach also. There were reports in the Athletic that he insisted on pursuing Antony till the end, he was adamant that FdJ wanted to join (everyone bar ETH and a few United fans knew he didn't) etc.

There's no point pointing to these fees as ETH

 

[stevoc]

ETH is gone in a few weeks as far as I’m concerned.

But this “ETH has been the most backed manager” line is relatively redundant statement. Backed by who ? Who is backing him ? The same failed people who have been sacked ? The owners who have been now sidelined by the probable eventual new one ?

Do you think being backed by Liverpool or city owners is the same as United ones ? Of course it’s not. When United spend 400 million , they probably get half that worth of signings cause the people who negotiate were useless. That’s not a managers fault.

United managers get less at a higher cost. United managers have to make do with players they don’t want and the club can’t get rid of. United managers have to make do with “this is what we could get you” signings that many of you act as though the managers really really wanted them.

United managers have to make do with less than excellence infrastructure. No amount of headline spending has been able to compensate for it.

By the same people who hired and fired Moyes, Van Gaal, Jose and Ole. And those managers also worked within the same infrastructure.

None of those 4 nor Ten Hag worked for City or Liverpool so that comparison is irrelevant.

When you compare Ten Hag to his predecessors at United he's been backed both in terms on control and finances to a level that the other 4 simply were not.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

The backbone of Solskjaers United was Maguire, Lindelof, Fred, McTominay and Martial.

So you can say injuries have robbed us of players but this squad isn't the worst squad we've had in the last 10 years.

Ole really struggled until he signed Bruno Fernandes. I'm not his biggest fan, but he was a significant upgrade on Andreas and Lingard in that role.

Ole's 1st transfer window was AWB, Maguire and Dan James.

They actually did pretty well under him. The defence improved. We only conceded 36 goals in the league during the 19/20 season. James had a decent debut season.

None of these names were ever going to turn us into PL winners though. The overall squad was meh.

Our squad now isn't even bad. We have some very talented players who ten Hag hasn't been able to get the best out of regularly.

 

[Fortitude]

I was being sarcastic mate. While I think he's completely failed at United I don't think he's a shit coach. He's just a good coach that's been found out at the top level. There's no shame in that.

I don't even know it's that. More seems like someone who is so hyperfocused, stubborn and arrogant that he'd rather tank our season and put himself in jeopardy than swallowing some pride, holding his hand up and seeing us through conventionally, which has cost us an unfathomable amount of negatives and produced the worst season in living memory for anyone under age of 42.

He has ushered in the age of ritual humiliation and crushing defeats being normalised. We get hammered by Bournemout, Crystal Palace and other terrible teams by multiple goal tallies, and it's like nothing happened a few days later; we come bottom of the CL group containing fodder, and it's brushed over and treated like standard fare; we barely survive against Coventry, and it's forgotten about within 3 days. On and on, things that used to bring about post-mortem are seen as par for the course, all ushered in by him lowering standards whilst sticking steadfastly to a system that hasn't worked since preseason.

I'd wager 80% of the above needn't - and wouldn't - have happened if we were set up correctly, under the exact same injury scenarios and conditions they were played out to.

 

[stevoc]

Ole really struggled until he signed Bruno Fernandes. I'm not his biggest fan, but he was a significant upgrade on Andreas and Lingard in that role.

Ole's 1st transfer window was AWB, Maguire and Dan James.

They actually did pretty well under him. The defence improved. We only conceded 36 goals in the league during the 19/20 season. James had a decent debut season.

None of these names were ever going to turn us into PL winners though. The overall squad was meh.

Our squad now isn't even bad. We have some very talented players who ten Hag hasn't been able to get the best out of regularly.

Yeah I think this squad is much better than its been made to look this season.

 

[stevoc]

I don't even know it's that. More seems like someone who is so hyperfocused, stubborn and arrogant that he'd rather tank our season and put himself in jeopardy than swallowing some pride, holding his hand up and seeing us through conventionally, which has cost us an unfathomable amount of negatives and produced the worst season in living memory for anyone under age of 42.

Yeah that could be true, at the top level in a top league a manager has to be adaptable. Ten Hag it seems just isn't and yes I think ego and pride have played a role in his insistence on continuing with a system that clearly isn't working.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

Backed with money is what I guess they are saying.

With regards to the price of some of our signings, I agree they are extortionate. However, other clubs pay big money for players. City got priced out of Paqueta last summer, Arsenal paid big money for Rice, Chelsea for most of their players, Liverpool paid big money for some of theirs. We are always going to get charged a premium because we are a desperate club - our biggest mistake is not walking away. But ETH seems to be culpable in that approach also. There were reports in the Athletic that he insisted on pursuing Antony till the end, he was adamant that FdJ wanted to join (everyone bar ETH and a few United fans knew he didn't) etc.

There's no point pointing to these fees as ETH

City overpaid for both Grealish and Kalvin Phillips. Liverpool overpaid for Darwin Núñez. It's not just a United problem.

Every big club will have the occasional dud signing. But our big money/high profile signings flop spectacularly.

Darwin hasn't lived up to his price tag, but Klopp has still got some value from him. 18 goals and 13 assists so far this season.

Antony and Sancho have a combined 23 goals and 11 assists from 164 games in total for us.

 

[Fortitude]

Yeah that could be true, at the top level in a top league a manager has to be adaptable. Ten Hag it seems just isn't and yes I think ego and pride have played a role in his insistence on continuing with a system that clearly isn't working.

Added the edit.

 

[TsuWave]

Thread has jumped the shark, man. People posting Arteta quotes and talking about "we give Arsenal a hard time"

 

[Rista]

Thread has jumped the shark, man. People posting Arteta quotes and talking about "we give Arsenal a hard time"

My favorite was the calling out of haters who predicted a thrashing. Lost at home by only one goal, where are you now.

 

[Alpha 1]

And 115 charges…

This is what you’re up against if you want to win a PL now. A club that can buy a GK and say nah we need a new one within a season and make those transfers happen.

It’s a pointless argument which is why I’m not sure why @Alpha 1 tried to say Guardiola won in his second season.

It’s just a stupid comparison to make because we clearly aren’t at that level no matter which manager comes in.

I hope the position is sorted soon too.

You are right. It is a stupid comparison to make because Guardiola is a truly elite manager who knows exactly the way he wants his team to play and the kind of players he wants in his team. His players are given clear instructions on exactly what to do.

On the otherhand, Ten Hag's teams play terrible, chaotic, suicidal football; his signings are terrible, he doesn't know what he wants from his players, how to motivate them, what system he wants to implement. All we hear is excuse after excuse. Apparently we've been playing the most attractive football in the league. According to you, we played well vs relegation fodder so there is progress. Nonsense.

Can you please compare him to Unai Emery? Watching Villa yesterday further made me realise how bad we are and how bad a job Ten Hag has done.