Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Bilbo said:
Many do not, and thats fine, but reducing it down as you are does nobody any favours, because I doubt there's a single person who thinks United should just give every manager a minimum period of time in charge.
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True, of course.

But there is a rather prevalent idea that sacking the "manager" does nothing to improve the general state of affairs - because (and this is the actual argument, of course) the structure is rotten.

My take is that many ETH "supporters" (there are degrees there, of course, it's not a homogeneous group) fall into that category.

And...again, I can understand that sense of....resignation. Of course.

But surely, the premise now has to be that structural changes are being made.

(We can doubt it, sure - but that means we're eternally fecked and really has nothing to do with ETH as such, right?)

Given the premise that structural changes are being made - why should we keep ETH?

Let's absolve him of all transfers for the sake of argument (let's pretend he didn't actually welcome the chance to build a squad in a more hands-on capacity) - why should the new regime fancy ETH as their head coach?

Because of what he achieved in his first season?

Because of what he achieved at Ajax?

Because there are clear signs that he's building something (in terms of coaching)?

What exactly is the argument for sticking with ETH rather than just hiring another head coach (again: the premise here is that the structure has changed, the next bloke won't be a "manager" with significant input on transfers and overall club strategy, "just" a coach) - like, say, Tuchel?
 
hobbers said:
But has nothing to do with the poll question

Like I hate to break it to the 'we shouldnt sack him because what if we end up with Southgate?' people.

If Ineos are incompetent enough to give ETH a final doomed chance, we will waste another season yes, but then what's stopping them appointing Southgate mid season or next summer...? Nothing.

If they're stupid enough to do the former, there is no doubting they'd be stupid enough to do the latter. That is potentially the next 2 or 3 seasons wasted on ETH then Southgate.
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I agree, but I suppose just on off the chance that Ten Hag somehow staying gives Ineos a bit of time to think again, or the opportunity for an outstanding candidate to become available is worth keeping Ten Hag for now imo.

The thought of Ineos picking Southgate, and then having to stick with him for at least 2-3 years is not worth thinking about.
 
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JPRouve said:
You absolutely can, speed isn't a factor in that role and you are not talking about someone that is actually slow. Our issue with him is that one he has been used as box to box since around midseason 22-23 and we expect our duo of CM to cover the entire width, around 45m vertically and to make runs into the box. No one can do that and all our midfielders have struggled especially defensively.

The issue for Casemiro with us isn't athletic, it's that he is constantly in positional situations that he doesn't master and the one role that he hasn't been given is the one that made his success, as a single DM with the game generally in front of him.
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Being able to cover ground is absolutely a factor as a holding DM, unless you're Busquets and you're team can hold the ball for the majority of the game while you just metronome and carry it out from the back. Not sure why you insist that Casemiro’s mobility isn’t an issue now, he’s looked crap for Brazil in post WC appearances too. It’s okay, happens to every great player but it’s obvious that he can’t quite get to tackles that his brain still says he can.

RedStarUnited said:
Even at Madrid that happens rarely and you know why it happens rarely? Because the players know its possible.



When I think of big historical teams I feel English teams and United especially are easily the best teams to manage in terms of pressure. The fans at United make it so easy for managers and players. Rashford thinks he is being abused, its nothing compared to what he would get in other big teams.
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100%, and Rashford just has to mention his mental health and “abuse” to get fans back on his side just because people call him shite on Twitter.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
I agree, but I suppose just on off the chance that Ten Hag somehow staying gives Ineos a bit of time to think again, or the opportunity for an outstanding candidate to become available is worth keeping Ten Hag for now imo.

The thought of Ineos picking Southgate, and then having to stick with him for at least for now 2-3 years is not worth thinking about.
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Yeah it's a horrifying thought indeed
 
Chesterlestreet said:
True, of course.

But there is a rather prevalent idea that sacking the "manager" does nothing to improve the general state of affairs - because (and this is the actual argument, of course) the structure is rotten.

My take is that many ETH "supporters" (there are degrees there, of course, it's not a homogeneous group) fall into that category.

And...again, I can understand that sense of....resignation. Of course.

But surely, the premise now has to be that structural changes are being made.

(We can doubt it, sure - but that means we're eternally fecked and really has nothing to do with ETH as such, right?)

Given the premise that structural changes are being made - why should we keep ETH?

Let's absolve him of all transfers for the sake of argument (let's pretend he didn't actually welcome the chance to build a squad in a more hands-on capacity) - why should the new regime fancy ETH as their head coach?

Because of what he achieved in his first season?

Because of what he achieved at Ajax?

Because there are clear signs that he's building something (in terms of coaching)?

What exactly is the argument for sticking with ETH rather than just hiring another head coach (again: the premise here is that the structure has changed, the next bloke won't be a "manager" with significant input on transfers and overall club strategy, "just" a coach) - like, say, Tuchel?
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Sacking the manager is a good thing if the manager you then appoint aligns better with the vision you have. Then of course you make that structural change. There’s also a logic in appointing a manager the bigger picture people want in charge too, but the truth is they could want a manager like Ten Hag. He could be their choice so to speak. I’m not going to comment on the likelihood of this.

Unfortunately some of the truly influential people won’t officially be in the job to make this call. And also unfortunately we’ve had the kind of season that like it or not it’s really hard to honestly and fairly assess what Ten Hag is doing. So patience might be the best of a bad bunch of options in terms of allowing time for the first managerial choice to be made.

As for reasons in favour of Ten Hag we could point to a good first season, lots of finals, promotion and development of youth, dealing with culture issues and standards etc but none of us know if that’s enough or what would impress INEOS.

Absolutely none of us know whether Ten Hag does or does not meet that criteria.

None of us know who does.

There are arguments to be made for all coaches including Tuchel but then there are also arguments against too again, none of us are privy to the key factors that would influence decision.

I do really strongly believe whatever is decided we just have to get behind, so Tuchel, Southgate or sticking with Ten Hag you have to back the decision and judge it over time.

But for now I’m not going to get flustered or bothered by it. We have 2 weeks left and we’ll find out soon enough.
 
Villa are about to get 4th on 67 points (they'll lose against Palace away) and we'll still be more than 4 wins behind them.

Failure upon failure.
 
Cerberus said:
You're not wrong here, but my reasoning is that ETH is not a new manager. He's not walking into the situation with our new structure, he's arleady established the terms of his tenure at United and now a new team has been placed that will strip him of a lot of authority. It's one thing to come to the club knowing your transfer power is limited, it's another to have it taken from you when you're in the process of implementing it and I doubt Ineos were specifically selecting Ashworth & Wilcox based on how much they agree with Ten Hag's transfer policy.

I just can't see a good result from Ten Hag going into the final season of his contract without a renewal (which means reduced authority) and loss of transfer authority while being dictated a playstyle. Maybe that would have been fine if he arrived with those circumstances but pushing that onto him after two seasons of total control is going to generate conflict. This is why I think they're going to start over with a new manager.
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I think we are a while away from dictating a play style. Most of our new management appointments aren’t even on board yet, and the mish-mash of players we have won’t allow us to determine a play style for several transfer windows. We need to be a bit pragmatic here. We are likely losing a lot of players this summer from an already shallow squad. It’s very unlikely that we will be able to add enough quantity and quality to vastly increase the strength in depth that we need. Therefore, my opinion only, is that we need a proven manager to stabilise the situation during this transition. ETH is not the man to do that imo, given he has wasted our limited funds on players such as Antony and Mount. He has to go.
 
Robbie Boy said:
The folks that banged the Ole drum are absolutely ETH out. In fact, they were the first cohort to be critical, even when he was doing decent enough last season. Then the ETH fans will likely be critical of the next man. It's a never ending loop of manager worshipping. The Jose cultists were also different from the Ole and ETH versions.
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I liked Ole. I think he did a good job with what he had but ultimately wasn’t able to make the final step into a team that is proactive and dominant. I think Ronaldo absolutely killed that chance.

I’ve also been someone quite happy to put Ten Hag’s season into context.
 
If we keep him and the embarrassing results start piling up again then he'll probably be sacked by Christmas and we're struck with an interim and another written off season. There's risk involved with any decision we make.
 
Blood Mage said:
If we keep him and the embarrassing results start piling up again then he'll probably be sacked by Christmas and we're struck with an interim and another written off season. There's risk involved with any decision we make.
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The biggest risk would be to keep Ten Hag
 
BenitoSTARR said:
I do really strongly believe whatever is decided we just have to get behind, so Tuchel, Southgate or sticking with Ten Hag you have to back the decision and judge it over time.
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I agree but this reminds me uncomfortably of us getting behind Moyes at the start yet knowing that it was just simply the wrong option.
 
Wilt said:
The biggest risk would be to keep Ten Hag
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I agree, I don't want to risk writing off next season based on the slim hope that we'll get better with a fit squad and new signings. It's a no brainer to sack him really.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
True, of course.

But there is a rather prevalent idea that sacking the "manager" does nothing to improve the general state of affairs - because (and this is the actual argument, of course) the structure is rotten.

My take is that many ETH "supporters" (there are degrees there, of course, it's not a homogeneous group) fall into that category.

And...again, I can understand that sense of....resignation. Of course.

But surely, the premise now has to be that structural changes are being made.

(We can doubt it, sure - but that means we're eternally fecked and really has nothing to do with ETH as such, right?)

Given the premise that structural changes are being made - why should we keep ETH?

Let's absolve him of all transfers for the sake of argument (let's pretend he didn't actually welcome the chance to build a squad in a more hands-on capacity) - why should the new regime fancy ETH as their head coach?

Because of what he achieved in his first season?

Because of what he achieved at Ajax?

Because there are clear signs that he's building something (in terms of coaching)?

What exactly is the argument for sticking with ETH rather than just hiring another head coach (again: the premise here is that the structure has changed, the next bloke won't be a "manager" with significant input on transfers and overall club strategy, "just" a coach) - like, say, Tuchel?
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You've pretty much mentioned the reasons I'd give him another season in your own post.

Not because of what he achieved at Ajax. In my view that's what got him the job, it should never be what keeps him in the job. How he does here decides that.

Yes because of what we achieved in his first season. Also yes because I'm curious to see how well he'd fare within a better organisation.

Finally from a selfish point of view, because I don't want to see United play the possession obsessed robotic stuff that many seem to crave. I want us to be direct and exciting and I believe that Ten Hag wants us to be that team so I'd like to see whether he can deliver that.

If we do part ways then I'd hope we look for someone in a similar vein.
 
NLunited said:
Ten Hag‘s style is actually more transition based and more direct than the patient possession based approach.

There are those here who think we should go all in for possession based football, I‘m not one of them. I think it is outdated and you need the very best players to make it work.
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Like Leverkusen?
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
I agree, but I suppose just on off the chance that Ten Hag somehow staying gives Ineos a bit of time to think again, or the opportunity for an outstanding candidate to become available is worth keeping Ten Hag for now imo.

The thought of Ineos picking Southgate, and then having to stick with him for at least 2-3 years is not worth thinking about.
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If Southgate is a serious candidate for them now, I guarantee you he will be their top candidate for mid season or next summer if ETH isn’t sacked in a couple of weeks. The timing will be too perfect.

On the premise that Ineos are a clownshow who don’t know what they are doing, if that’s the case buckle up to waste another season under ETH followed by at least 2 more under Southgate

If they are that useless I’d rather cycle through the Southgate flirt with relegation era now than delay it another year
 
Robbie Boy said:
The folks that banged the Ole drum are absolutely ETH out. In fact, they were the first cohort to be critical, even when he was doing decent enough last season. Then the ETH fans will likely be critical of the next man. It's a never ending loop of manager worshipping. The Jose cultists were also different from the Ole and ETH versions.
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I was banging the "we won't do any better than Ole with the next guy unless recruitment improves" drum.

A spot on observation, we've got worse.

Also one of the first to be critical early last year when I could look past the results and see that the attack was poor and heavily reliant on Rashford brilliance.

Again spot on despite being called a 'Ten Hag hater' and all sorts at the time.

Really hope he turns it around somehow if we're stuck with him as seems increasingly likely.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Being able to cover ground is absolutely a factor as a holding DM, unless you're Busquets and you're team can hold the ball for the majority of the game while you just metronome and carry it out from the back. Not sure why you insist that Casemiro’s mobility isn’t an issue now, he’s looked crap for Brazil in post WC appearances too. It’s okay, happens to every great player but it’s obvious that he can’t quite get to tackles that his brain still says he can.
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Speed isn't a key factor, positioning and anticipation are. And the likes of Makélélé, Thiago Motta, Van Bommel, Edmilson and a bunch of DM that largely played as a solo DM were slower that Casemiro. And no one in our midfield can get to any tackle regardless of age or pace, and the reason isn't age or pace.
 
My hope is that Ratcliffe is going to let his recruitment team pick the new manager and I find it hard to believe that Berrada, Wilcox and Ashworth will pick Southgate.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Sorry do you disagree? If so why?
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Seeing as how the PL has been dominated in all 3 European competitions, it's a bit rich to look down on other leagues, especially because the most successful PL managers were imports.

This whole sentiment is funny to me in general, especially since you are here defending the bloody Eredivisie dominator from fair criticism every step of the way.
 
Bilbo said:
Yes because of what we achieved in his first season. Also yes because I'm curious to see how well he'd fare within a better organisation.
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How much effect do you expect the organisation to have next season, considering it's not in place yet and that a big part of what it's supposed to add - better recruitment - will probably be quite limited this summer?
 
Rightnr said:
Seeing as how the PL has been dominated in all 3 European competitions, it's a bit rich to look down on other leagues, especially because the most successful PL managers were imports.

This whole sentiment is funny to me in general, especially since you are here defending the bloody Eredivisie dominator from fair criticism every step of the way.
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Why don’t you just use your words right away?

Unfortunately you only need to look back one season for that not to be the case in Europe.

It’s not a case of looking down it’s just objectively more difficult to compete in a league with the most money and higher average quality of opponent.

Id take Alonso over Ten Hag in a heartbeat.
 
Amir said:
How much effect do you expect the organisation to have next season, considering it's not in place yet and that a big part of what it's supposed to add - better recruitment - will probably be quite limited this summer?
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Good question. Honestly, I don't know for sure, because like most I have no real idea of how a football club operates on a day to day basis. I've worked and managed in enough organisations though to know how much of a difference it can make to be surrounded by the right people.

It's not just recruitment though, I'm certain of that. I think he'll get better advice, better support, his in tray will be simplified and he'll have fewer distractions. Also, if like me you believe that there are some deep rooted cultural issues within the club, then just the general environment being better will be something that the squad will benefit from.

Wilcox, Berrada and Ashworth all seem like serious football people, and it seems like INEOS have been working already at creating a feeling of sporting excellence. Just hearing that type of talk has a positive effect. It sets the expectations, and you start to figure out who is going to be reliable, and who lacks the motivation to buy into it. Its a process.

Contrast that to what we've had. Anonymous owners, and Woodward & Co never seemed like people that footballers would take seriously. Leadership is critical. Its little wonder that standards have dropped, and quite understandable why Erik (and no doubt others) were warned against taking the job here. You're set up to fail in a situation like that.
 
izec said:
what impatience, what are you on about? Are you drunk?

When has the bolded part ever happened?

I dont know what our current situation has to do with Real? Have you watched us the last 10 years? You speak like we come from a triple season and had a bad season now and everyone is unhappy. Get a grip.

If anything, our fanbase is ridiculously generous and patient for a former top club. Too much for their own good.
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Being frustrated is normal and will be true for all of us. It’s been a torrid season and obviously we are all hoping for the same outcome, which is a much better run club and a far better Man Utd team. I completely disagree though that we have to emulate Madrid to try and get there, for one thing because our circumstances are entirely different. There’s this contingent on here who cry over and over about standards falling, while in some departments it’s true, there’s plenty of posters who just throw that out there whenever they disagree with someone for example keeping Ten Hag. It’s got nothing to do with standards, and everything to do with different views on the best way to progress again.

Ratcliff has said it, Ten Hag has said it, this isn’t an easy fix and will require patience no matter how much people want it instantly.
 
Bilbo said:
Good question. Honestly, I don't know for sure, because like most I have no real idea of how a football club operates on a day to day basis. I've worked and managed in enough organisations though to know how much of a difference it can make to be surrounded by the right people.

It's not just recruitment though, I'm certain of that. I think he'll get better advice, better support, his in tray will be simplified and he'll have fewer distractions. Also, if like me you believe that there are some deep rooted cultural issues within the club, then just the general environment being better will be something that the squad will benefit from.

Wilcox, Berrada and Ashworth all seem like serious football people, and it seems like INEOS have been working already at creating a feeling of sporting excellence. Just hearing that type of talk has a positive effect. It sets the expectations, and you start to figure out who is going to be reliable, and who lacks the motivation to buy into it. Its a process.

Contrast that to what we've had. Anonymous owners, and Woodward & Co never seemed like people that footballers would take seriously. Leadership is critical. Its little wonder that standards have dropped, and quite understandable why Erik (and no doubt others) were warned against taking the job here. You're set up to fail in a situation like that.
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I haven't trusted him whatsoever since that abomination at Anfield,however it's not all on him so players from that game should be sold too. The problem with that is we are still so hamstrung with the FFP situation.
 
DSG said:
I don’t understand this. We should look at successful clubs and steal the things they do well, leave the stuff we don’t like. Successful businesses around the world do the same. Our ethos, culture and everything else about the club doesn’t need to change. Nothing is going to change who we are. The Munich tragedy we’ve endured, the being the first English club to win the European Cup, the first to win the treble, the most league titles, the commitment to youth and the academy.
What we are saying is that a commitment to excellence and not accepting less is a very positive characteristic. Embodying those values and handling problems with dignity and class is a choice.
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I agree, we absolutely need all of the above. What some people can’t grasp though is that it’s not an overnight fix, there might be more downs before we look up again. I used to think it was only a matter of time till we got it right, now I realise you have to work on it and put a proper strategy together. Sure take some inspiration from other clubs, but ultimately Utd are a unique beast and it’s a unique challenge. Fundamentally though, sticking to the clubs vision is vital or you end up with goons like Mourinho who promise the world, but actually epitomise the very antithesis of what Utd should be all about.
 
Bilbo said:
Good question. Honestly, I don't know for sure, because like most I have no real idea of how a football club operates on a day to day basis. I've worked and managed in enough organisations though to know how much of a difference it can make to be surrounded by the right people.

It's not just recruitment though, I'm certain of that. I think he'll get better advice, better support, his in tray will be simplified and he'll have fewer distractions. Also, if like me you believe that there are some deep rooted cultural issues within the club, then just the general environment being better will be something that the squad will benefit from.

Wilcox, Berrada and Ashworth all seem like serious football people, and it seems like INEOS have been working already at creating a feeling of sporting excellence. Just hearing that type of talk has a positive effect. It sets the expectations, and you start to figure out who is going to be reliable, and who lacks the motivation to buy into it. Its a process.

Contrast that to what we've had. Anonymous owners, and Woodward & Co never seemed like people that footballers would take seriously. Leadership is critical. Its little wonder that standards have dropped, and quite understandable why Erik (and no doubt others) were warned against taking the job here. You're set up to fail in a situation like that.
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I think next season will be a 'getting to know you' season and although I am hopeful we can get top four again, if we are heading in the right direction with hopefully a decent manager playing decent football, its still a gain. The season after when everything and everyone has been 'bedded in', is when you will see if this new regime is working fully imo.
 
Blood Mage said:
If we keep him and the embarrassing results start piling up again then he'll probably be sacked by Christmas and we're struck with an interim and another written off season. There's risk involved with any decision we make.
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Nah, we will just find new excuses if we can’t use the same ones we’ve used this year. To be fair we will probably be able to just recycle them as we will have some injuries next season as well.
 
Rightnr said:
Seeing as how the PL has been dominated in all 3 European competitions, it's a bit rich to look down on other leagues, especially because the most successful PL managers were imports.

This whole sentiment is funny to me in general, especially since you are here defending the bloody Eredivisie dominator from fair criticism every step of the way.
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There are at least 5 teams in Bundesliga that are considerably better than United, possibly more.
 
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