He shaped the squad this way if you want to argue it's the worst squad.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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He shaped the squad this way if you want to argue it's the worst squad.
Thread has jumped the shark, man. People posting Arteta quotes and talking about "we give Arsenal a hard time"
Sometimes I wonder if our fans realize we're not a wee club in the Premier League.
They act so small-time.
I genuinely think the Ten Hag in crowd are wumming now. Or just desperate to hold a contrarian opinion till the very end.
I dont disagree with that. I didnt say that. I just think this is the worst squad. The Premier League does get stronger every year so that fact combined with the, in my opinion, worst post Fergie squad . It isnt suprising to me that ETH is amongst the lowest stats from all post Fergie managers.
Based on the performances of English clubs in Europe this season and the fact that all three newly promoted teams got relegated, this is debatable.
So very true. "Giving Arsenal a hard time at Old Trafford" is nothing to be proud of for United, it's instead a reason to get sacked as it should be "convincingly beating them at Old Trafford".
The first is a good argument, the latter not so much - it could just mean that the teams in the PL improve so much that Championship teams can't close the gap when they get promoted.
Villa didnt reach the final of the Conference league but i dont think anyone will argue that Olympiacos is actually better than them. Manchester City is much better than CL finalist Dortmund. Maybe the strenght of the Premier League is actually a disadvantage when you have to go all out every weekend and then also have to play European football midweek.
Clubs like Palace have Eze and Olise. Players who would get minutes for Real Madrid. West Ham has Kudus and Alvarez who performed very well in the Champions League while playing for Ajax. Fulham midfielder Palhinha would be the starter DM for CL finalist Bayern. Wolves have Cunha as their striker. The average quality of Premier League squads is at an all time high. Other leagues dont have mid table teams with players of that quality and when they do, Premier League teams will sign them up the next season.
Nah, the 3 newly promoted teams were just really bad. The fact that Forest will be able to survive with 29 points is crazy.
Other promoted teams have come up and become solid mid-table outfits who contribute a decent standard to the league. Brentford, Fulham, Bournemouth, etc.
I liked Luton's story, but the 3 newly promoted teams didn't offer much. Luton gave it their best.
I'd expect Leicester to do well next season if they can add some PL quality players to what they already have.
I get what you mean though.
Ridiculous isn't it. How this guy is a scout I'll never know, surely he's going to be biased going by his stance in here.
Arrogance comes with hiring good managers. I‘m not sure why you mention Mourinho; he would have thrown the players under the bus, ran it back and forth a few times, parked and torched it by now.
I think a bigger factor is that European experience matters. Olympiakos plays in Europe every season and finally there is a competition on their level (they used to get battered in CL/EL group stages in the last years, but they always were present), while Villa just isn't used to that as a club.
City lost against Real Madrid who just believe that it's their divine right to win the CL and have the experience of winning to back it up.
Same principle on a bit lower level for Arsenal/Bayern.
Newcastle have very little European experience as well
West Ham did well in the EL after winning the ECL last season and only got stopped by an invincible team
Brighton did well considering their lack of experience and got stopped by AS Rom, who also have a lot of European experience
The only English club who went out to teams that are not more experienced in Europe is Manchester United
Arsenal got ahead because of a Casemiro error (Case is not a cb I don‘t blame him too much). We played almost the same team and tactics as the previous game.
There was no change in tactics, we performed better.
Not ridiculous at all. Someone not sharing your opinion doesnt disqualify them from rating posts.
Eze and Olise are good players, but they're not getting minutes for Real Madrid. C'mon, man.
There are quality players across other leagues below the European places. La Liga, The Bundesliga and Serie A in particular.
The likes of Baena, Gerard Moreno, Sørloth, Ramos, Ocampos, En-Nesyri, Majer, Mæhle, Elvedi, Kvaratskhelia, Osimhen, Samardžić, Colpani, etc.
The PL has the most money and is the best marketed
Which Ten Hag isn't, and has done nothing to back up said arrogance.
Conservative estimate our performance this season will have cost around £70m in lost prize money
8th in prem (instead of 4th) £12.4M
Champions league exit and missing out on Europa between £32 and £52m (depending on success) (this includes converting a draw and 2 losses to wins in the group stage and reaching a quarter final)
Missing out on Champions league next season should be minimum of £27m if we reached the round of 16
This does not factor in loss in revenues elsewhere due to our depreciation in profile
Irrespective of anything else given FFP can we afford to risk ETH for another season
8th in prem (instead of 4th) £12.4M
Champions league exit and missing out on Europa between £32 and £52m (depending on success) (this includes converting a draw and 2 losses to wins in the group stage and reaching a quarter final)
Missing out on Champions league next season should be minimum of £27m if we reached the round of 16
This does not factor in loss in revenues elsewhere due to our depreciation in profile
Irrespective of anything else given FFP can we afford to risk ETH for another season
Just makes Sir Jim look even more foolish when he said in that interview it's important to get champions league football for FFP reasons and then proceeds to dither and not sack ETH immediately.
That's not what I meant. I'm saying how can he be unbiased when looking at posts in here for instance.
Nope. It is black and white, you must have red lines. You lose 7-0 to Liverpool, the manager should be sacked. The same day. That's what Real would do. Freak of a season, freak of a result, it doesn't matter. If you start tolerating failure, then you end up 8th and you "hope" that next year will be better and you will finish 6th.
The sad thing is lots of fans would tell you keeping Ten Hag and then finishing 6th next season would justify their fealty to him.
(Couldn't quote your posts in full for some reason.)
Thanks for your replies.
I appreciate your ability to debate in a civil and intelligent manner, let me just say that. It's fast becoming a rarity.
As for the actual argument(s) you both offer - well, the one I can easily buy is this: if the structural change hasn't actually been implemented fully, we should absolutely not make any decisions here and now.
Our next manager (i.e. head coach) should be appointed after the structural changes are fully in place. No makeshift solutions, no knee-jerk appointments, no sacking him just because the fans want it - none of that. I think we agree 100% on that.
Where we differ is (I think) here:
a) I simply don't see it with him. I'm not impressed by him at all.
b) I can't get past the fact that he - himself - actually wanted the "manager" (not just "head coach") role. I think this is highly problematic for two reasons: 1) he shouldn't be rewarded with a "head coach" gig after his obvious failure as a "manager" and 2) surely, his authority must be undermined (from the players' perspective) if he now continues after what could easily be construed as a demotion: "Alright, we'll let you coach 'em, but you aren't really the boss anymore."
ETA To be clear, in the latter scenario I would prefer a new head coach - not one who gets the gig as a demotion (yes, that's putting it in extreme terms - but the point should be obvious).
To repeat my basic stance:
It could make sense to give ETH a second chance under a functioning structure, i.e. as a head coach (with limited influence on transfers and other long-term decisions) - yes.
But he hasn't done anything whatsoever to convince me that he's a better choice than - say - Tuchel for a head coach role under the new regime.
And, lastly, the continuity angle (the "let's not sack another manager when the structure is the real problem" angle) doesn't really work in his case. He isn't a brilliant head coach trapped in United's crap structure - that isn't what's been going on here, not in my opinion.
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Don't really care about your argument for or against the manager, but Jose lost 5-0 to Barca and wasn't sacked, Ancelotti lost 5-0 to Barca last season and wasn't sacked either.
It's crazy to think one result should see the end of any manager.
Yes, ETH, Jose coming off a treble in 2010, and Ancelotti with 4 CLs.
Like 3 peas in a pod.
"Our losses are due to individual errors, our wins are due to managerial brilliance"
Varane and Martial definitely leaving, Maguire and McTominay were players we wanted to get rid of last summer, and you'd very much bet on Eriksen and Casemiro departing. Rumours around Bruno leaving, and Evans possibly retiring too.
Regardless of the next manager or if EtH stays the squad is in a bit of a state. Perhaps that open heart surgery that Ralf suggested is finally happening.
Regardless of the next manager or if EtH stays the squad is in a bit of a state. Perhaps that open heart surgery that Ralf suggested is finally happening.
Players lose us the games, manager wins us the trophies. That's how it is.
That was nonsense to use the fans against the players anyway.
The season ends in 5 days and Manchester United can still mathematically finish 10th
I cannot believe I am writing that
(going to put this in that doesn't sound true thread too)
I cannot believe I am writing that
(going to put this in that doesn't sound true thread too)
We are most likely going to sell Sancho and Greenwood as well.
Confirmed leaving:
- Martial
- Varane
Most Likely to Leave:
- Casemiro
- Eriksen
- Evans
- Sancho
- Greenwood
- Lindelof
Maybe:
- Maguire
- McT
- Bruno
Hopefully Leaves:
- Anthony
- Rashford
That’s quite a list.
I've already posted this a few times, but that already started almost 2 years ago.
Gone:
De Gea
Henderson
Grant
Tuanzebe
Bailly
Mengi
Jones
Telles
Matić
Garner
Fred
Pogba
Andreas
Mata
Lingard
Chong
Elanga
Ronaldo
Cavani
Will leave:
Heaton
Varane
Amrabat
Martial
EtH out here (before it was cool), but I do not agree. Mourinho lost 5-0 against Barca, did not get sacked. Real then defeated them in the Cup final that season, and won the league against the mighty Barca the season after that. SAF lost 6-1 against City, we lost the league in GD. Don Carlo lost 5-0 against Barca last season (and 4-0 against City), and now won the league (and probably UCL)
But it was a warning sign. Should have got a clear warning that is not acceptable (same as for 6-1, I mean 6-3 against City) and the 4-0 against Brighton. The Sevilla 3-0 defeat and almost ending outside of UCL zone when Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs were all having historically bad seasons should have put him in pip. And then should have been quickly sacked at the beginning of this season.
But the entire talk was how he handled everything well, ughh perfect, that season and winning us the Trophy. Which shows both how far we have fallen, and the lack of ambition/standards we nowadays have.
5-0 is bad. Terrible even. But it's still not 7-0. And that was against arguably the greatest side of modern football. We got smashed by an average Liverpool team. They lost their next 2 games after it.
SAF had been managing the club for almost 25 years by that point. He wasn't going to be sacked for it.
With Bruno looking likely to leave now, I doubt it matters what manager we'll have next season. Don't think there's any realistic chance at top 4 anyway. Going to be a transition season regardless. Might be best to spare any new manager from the backlash. You'd also inevitably have people saying should have kept ETH if we finish lower next season under a new manager.
Nope, it was a well made point from an otherwise bad temporary manager. And why on Earth would a temporary manager with a reputation for building teams and hired to offer his expertise want to turn fans against the players? It was just a typically blunt (or German
) appraisal and it looks as if INEOS fully agree according to reports.To put it another way, we've not had a single title challenge in 11+ years and that's not just down to the managers but poor club recruitment, poor structure, and hanging on to average or merely decent players for far far too long. We've been a squad that can battle (and win) top 4 challenges every now and then but never do anything more because that's all the squad has been ever capable of. To change that a better structure AND better managers have to be put in place.
There's no reason why a new manager shouldn't be able to improve on 7th/8th. The new manager would rightly be under pressure if we're struggling to reach 60 points again.
It's best to start fresh. Sell/release 7-10 players and be clever with recruitment.
You're underestimating how big of a loss Bruno is. We can't bring in any player of that level. He's so underappreciated on here it's ridiculous. If we keep Bruno, then yes we can improve on 7th/8th but if he leaves, 6th is probably the best we could hope for and even that is probably optimistic.
Bruno has scored 18 goals (6 penalties) and assisted 15 goals over the past two PL seasons. It's not impossible. He was on 3 PL goals this season until March.
Liverpool sold Coutinho in 2018 and replaced him in a different way. It doesn't have to be a like for like replacement.
A shift to 4-3-3 with a bigger emphasis on goals from the wide forwards is an option.
I don't think Bruno will go anywhere though. He's probably trying to get a better contract.
Yes you've posted this quite a number of times already and half the players you've listed barely played any games or were never more than squad players and would likely feature in any regular club turnover. The core players or the long term survivors (De Gea, Fred, Matic, Lingard, Pogba) that featured in many games have only just been shifted VERY slowly and good god how many years were they at the club before they left?
Like the majority of people here I know that you and most others want EtH to leave and I'm absolutely fine with that. But good luck if you think a new manager is coming in and building a sustainable, consistent title challenging team with this squad, as it is, without bigger changes. There's a lot of work to be done and thankfully we seem to be recognizing this.
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