Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Alex99 said:
Of course it's contradictory. And even if it weren't (which it is), it's still tremendously stupid to continue with a system when the players you've got can't execute it. The fact you've seem this play out for an entire season, with basically no proof that the system will work in the PL anyway, and reached the conclusion of "give him the start of next season" boggles the mind. It's precisely that stance that makes me believe you're Ten Hag in. You can say you're indifferent all you want, but you twist yourself into knots in here trying to absolve him of pretty much all blame.
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Eh? I said I'm indifferent about the sack. And I was asked how much time I'd give him more if he stayed and I said he would need to show immediate turnaround at the start of next season.
My stance is clear - if there's a better replacement. Sack. I've just gone into the Tuchel thread to say I've warmed to the idea of him. I posted a month ago about wanting to move Ten Hag on if there's a manager whos won in a big league and name dropped Xavi or Enrique (otherwise no point). It's not my fault if you cherry pick posts.
 
mctrials23 said:
I mean, the few games we had Martinez back were night and day to what we have seen for most of the season. We would almost certainly be competing for top 4 if we had Shaw and Martinez fit most of the season. If you consider that we are 10pts off top 4 with the season we have had, its not hard to imagine being there if we weren't reduced to playing Casemiro and Evans at CB and AwB at LB...

I don't think EtH has done anything like a good job this season but to suggest we wouldn't be miles better without the ridiculous injuries is a bit silly.
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We don’t actually know how we would look with Martinez and Shaw because we have virtually no games to base this on. They were both there against Wolves in our first game of season where we looked horrible and frankly no better than all the games we’ve lost, but fluked a win. We looked good in the first half against Wolves away when they both returned but looked very poor against Newport few days before and despite winning 3-0 looked average against West Ham as well.

With 54 points we probably have about 7-8 more than we deserve, if not more, so it’s not a huge stretch to imagine our position would not be hugely better even if they were in the squad.
 
leontas said:
Which games were night and day from what we’re currently seeing? Even in the first game of the season when we had a mostly fully fit squad, we were largely dominated by Wolves at home.
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The only one anyone can point to were the first 45 mins away at Wolves and drawing such significant conclusions from mere 45 mins of football is probably not right.
 
Sarni said:
The only one anyone can point to were the first 45 mins away at Wolves and drawing such significant conclusions from mere 45 mins of football is probably not right.
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Yeah...and in that match, you had 90% of our players fit
 
honirelandboy said:
Bring back Fred and reinstate Mcfred! Selling Fred was our downfall! It was never this bad with the two of them in center midfield after all our complaints under Ole.
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The funny thing is that Ten Hag has been moving towards a system that leaves tons of space for the opponents to exploit while filling the the team with mediocre athletes, Cas, Eriksen, Amrabat, Martinez, Antony. Fred was the one midfielder he had with the physical capacity to get about the pitch at the intensity required by this set up. None of it makes sense.

There is also this argument put forward that he had to move away from deep block, counter attacking football. Yes, but that and this aren't the only 2 modes of playing possible, it isn't expecting a lot to presume a top class manager can adapt his tactics to fit the players he has instead of persisting with lunacy despite it constantly failing.
 
I came here just to support the manager! Bring pep to coach the team that lost to crystal palace yesterday and we will still lose. We lack quality players and players who have determination! How many manutd players last night will get into crystal palace squad???
 
Aretak said:
Steve McClaren's generally regarded as an excellent coach. I don't ever remember hearing anyone who's worked with him say otherwise. Sir Alex certainly rated and trusted him. The fact that he was (overall) a failure as a manager is a completely different topic. Though he did win both the Eredivisie and the League Cup with much smaller teams and far fewer resources than Erik ten Hag, so...
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It doesn't make him the best ever coach or anything close to it. In a serious conversation there is no point making silly hyperbole, McClaren is a decent coach and his career as a head coach show that he isn't anywhere near elite as a coach.

Also SAF rated and trusted him in a smaller role at a time where SAF was himself still very involved. The same applies to Kidd, Queiroz or Meulensteen.
 
Trying to win a trophy is counter productive according to Ineos.
 
VP89 said:
Eh? I said I'm indifferent about the sack. And I was asked how much time I'd give him more if he stayed and I said he would need to show immediate turnaround at the start of next season.
My stance is clear - if there's a better replacement. Sack. I've just gone into the Tuchel thread to say I've warmed to the idea of him. I posted a month ago about wanting to move Ten Hag on if there's a manager whos won in a big league and name dropped Xavi or Enrique (otherwise no point). It's not my fault if you cherry pick posts.
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You can say it all you want, but you're the only name I see making weird leaps of logic to justify giving him time past this season.

I'd also argue the "he would need to show immediate turnaround at the start of next season" line is in conflict with your arguments that Ten Hag needs a proper structure and a more capable squad, given the former is going to have had barely any chance to majorly influence things, and as a consequence, we're unlikely to see major changes in the playing staff.

I say this as someone that's spent much of the season arguing with the exact same people you have, and still disagrees with them about many things relating to the manager.
 
If he's still here next season, what is deemed as a success?

This is the main reason I see a need for change, the uncertainty over where we go next with him in charge.

Example 1 - We sign a younger profile of player, most of the older lads leave and we finish 5th, do we say we'll it's an improvement and we renew his contract to keep him building or do we look for a change?

Example 2 - We sign ready made players, finish 3rd again do we keep going down the road with him, or move elsewhere.

I've not included any other scenarios as they would all be obvious pass or fails for me personally.
 
Alex99 said:
You can say it all you want, but you're the only name I see making weird leaps of logic to justify giving him time past this season.
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I was asked the question. As I said my stance has been that I'm indifferent about a sack. I said he's made his own grave. I can't spell it out more.

Alex99 said:
I'd also argue the "he would need to show immediate turnaround at the start of next season" line is in conflict with your arguments that Ten Hag needs a proper structure and a more capable squad, given the former is going to have had barely any chance to majorly influence things, and as a consequence, we're unlikely to see major changes in the playing staff.
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We will certainly see big changes in the playing staff. What I've said again is not remotely contradictory. He needs to show immediate improvement if he stays next season.
 
VP89 said:
Scholes and Owen are shit pundits to be fair.
I actually think the best critique of Ten Hag's own frailties and how it doesn't work is from @JPRouve . Put him on TV.
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Scholes and Owen, two actual top class players who played under great managers = shit pundits.

Andy Mitten, who once sat down with ETH = Worth listening to as he probably has a better insight into his coaching.

The world as per VP89. Couldn't write this shit.
 
Don't agree with keeping him for the final but on the other hand it doesn't make much difference as long as they sack him end of the season latest
 
These ideas of giving him at least the start of next season are weird to me. If we have so little trust in him then what's the point? As if we're on the brink of something great and waiting for it to click any time. People who want him to be given the start of season will then not want to sack him if we're any better than 8th but stil trash. It will be seen as progress and how he just needs more time.
 
pocco said:
Scholes and Owen, two actual top class players who played under great managers = shit pundits.

Andy Mitten, who once sat down with ETH = Worth listening to as he probably has a better insight into his coaching.

The world as per VP89. Couldn't write this shit.
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It was proved countless times that great footballers don't have to equal good pundits. I haven't listened to Owen much so I can't tell, but listened to Scholes a lot and yeah, he is a fecking shit pundit.
 
VP89 said:
There is no evidence or insinuation that he had any output or pushback or even an overlay of better candidates when these players were signed. Athletic even reported he was initially hesitant to go to Ajax for Antony. Managers need to be supported from this, because their scope is very limited in understanding player recruitment. This is why Pep/Klopp have very limited input on transfers.
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Pep with very limited input on transfers :wenger:
 
Rista said:
These ideas of giving him at least the start of next season are weird to me. If we have so little trust in him then what's the point? As if we're on the brink of something great and waiting for it to click any time. People who want him to be given the start of season will then not want to sack him if we're any better than 8th but stil trash. It will be seen as progress and how he just needs more time.
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That's what they're hoping. Get some class players that can paper over the cracks to an extent to buy him more time, and it will then just go on and on until we win the FA Cup in 10 years. Rhen they get to say "told you so".
 
evil_geko said:
It was proved countless times that great footballers don't have to equal good pundits. I haven't listened to Owen much so I can't tell, but listened to Scholes a lot and yeah, he is a fecking shit pundit.
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He's not a shit pundit as he knows what he's talking about. He doesn't make much effort really and is quite blunt, but I'd trust his opinion over Andy Mitten.
 
Alex99 said:
It seems highly likely to be the case, but we don't yet know for sure that's he gone at the end of the season.

With an interim, we'll have a manager that knows he's not long for the job and a bunch of players with no real incentive (including the cup final) to impress him.
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No real incentive in a Cup final? Surely winning the cup is the incentive.

Why would we be worried about anyone impressing a manager who's only been hired for 4 games?

New manager bounces happen all the time. Look at when Giggs, Ole, and Carrick took over as interim managers. We had an uptick in form.
 
Sarni said:
Now I’m actually starting to again believe that we will be dumb enough to give him another season because he will talk his way out of trouble with ‘the plan’.
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I'm always surprised you think he's going to talk his way out of trouble, he's one of the worst speakers I've ever heard as a manager at a top club. 10 minutes of him incoherently rambling and saying "heh" a lot is hardly going to get anyone to buy in to his vision.

I think his one hope of staying, if he even wants to which I think is questionable (I imagine he'd be delighted to be paid off given how he's been talking lately), is the upheaval going on above him and them potentially not wanting to do anything else until more senior staff are in place.
 
Alex99 said:
They've not even implemented the structure above him fully yet. I get the desire to see the back of him ASAP, but given the costs incurred in firing him too quickly, it's surely not a surprise that they've tried to continue with their "top down" approach to restructuring before jumping ahead and getting a new manager in?

This early, over-the-top doom and gloom is just weird.
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It’s hardly early doom and gloom, we have 3 league games left
 
LawCharltonBest said:
I absolutely loathe these pieces which say a factor in deciding whether to sack him is cost

Why would a club claiming it wants to be the best in the world again decide to keep a manager who they don’t think is good enough purely because of cost?
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Damage control until they can sort out the house?
 
RORY65 said:
I'm always surprised you think he's going to talk his way out of trouble, he's one of the worst speakers I've ever heard as a manager at a top club. 10 minutes of him incoherently rambling and saying "heh" a lot is hardly going to get anyone to buy in to his vision.

I think his one hope of staying, if he even wants to which I think is questionable (I imagine he'd be delighted to be paid off given how he's been talking lately), is the upheaval going on above him and them potentially not wanting to do anything else until more senior staff are in place.
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He’s horrible in short interviews, comes across as either the most boring person on Earth or very smug, recently the latter more frequently, but when he’s given a lot of time to blabber continuously he actually becomes far more appealing. That Neville interview, or the one he did for someone well back during Ajax times when he talked about tactics and nuances of football (it made rounds on here before we hired him) are the sort of thing I fear INEOS will buy into.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Nothing whatsoever except money (and it's a pittance, relatively speaking).

(Unless you believe ETH is actually building something grand here and it would be foolish to cut it short. But does anyone believe this?)

The question is who to bring in (as an interim).
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Exactly, sacking him now vs June will probably cost the same. There is no doubt still one or two loons who think we're sacking Fergie mk2 but they'll get over it.

Who to hire, Big Sam, Rooney, Ole, Jose, Conte, it's only for 4 games so we're not asking for much of a commitment which makes the pool of possible candidates much larger.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
I absolutely loathe these pieces which say a factor in deciding whether to sack him is cost

Why would a club claiming it wants to be the best in the world again decide to keep a manager who they don’t think is good enough purely because of cost?
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It's as damning and embarrassing a comment for him, as it is for our players when he continually claims he can't beat shit teams with the players he had that day. I hope it annoys him as much as his words probably annoy the players.
 
The main issue in bringing a manager for the next 4 matches, is that he might not be useless and in an off chance we beat City in the final, we might offer him a 4 year contract as manager.

Or at least that is what we would have done with the previous regime in charge.
 
pocco said:
Scholes and Owen, two actual top class players who played under great managers = shit pundits.

Andy Mitten, who once sat down with ETH = Worth listening to as he probably has a better insight into his coaching.

The world as per VP89. Couldn't write this shit.
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And yet I'm the smartest one out of that bunch. :cool:
 
I have a lot of reservations about him, but I’m inclined to stick, personally. This season has been as negative as last season was positive, and it would be pessimistic to take the lowest and say that THAT is a person’s level going forward, and write off the better times as some sort of anomaly.

I don’t feel that we should just keep starting again, not without being absolutely sure, and on that basis I’d prefer he started next season. He’d have learned a lot of lessons from this season too. Another big factor is that the managerial market isn’t particularly inspiring. The only choice for me would be to take a chance on McKenna. Other than going that route, I don’t see many better options, and if Ten Hag left, he himself would be snapped up by a big club on the search too, as he’d be at the top of available candidates.
 
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