Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[sparx99]

That's an incredibly weak argument for keeping him. It's barely worked at all, and the very few examples we have in the "worked" column were still very "headless chicken".

It's going to take much more than one summer to sort this squad out, it'll be his third, and it looks like we won't actually have our full structure implemented above him anyway.

How much longer do you give him? Because without Ashworth in post, it looks very much like all of these naff excuses can apply to next season too.

The irony is we have players out on loan who seem more suited to his 'style' than ones we've kept. Sancho, Van de Beek and Hannibal would all cope better than Casemiro or Eriksen are.

The other thing is when you go back to his Ajax teams they don't need any specialist players. High-tempo pass and move football essentially. What they need is workrate and decent technical ability. You don't need a bunch of Bernardo Silva's and KDB's to play it. In fact there is an argument that we have better players than Ajax did during that run outside of FDJ and maybe De Ligt.

If you look at the Ajax team which made the CL semis it had slow center backs in De Ligt and Blind but both were comfortable in possession. Joel Veltman at right back is decent but nothing special. Lasse Schone was a key player but has never played in the bigger leagues for top clubs. Ziyech was a big flop at Chelsea, Tadic wasn't impressive at Southampton, David Neres ended up in Ukraine and then Benfica.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

If we don't win another game this season and still stick with Erik ten Hag regardless, would you have a begrudging respect for United's defiance?

Hehe.

Kinda, yeah.

But it would be well into "it's so blatantly crazy it could actually work" territory.

 

[Revan]

Antony was a target that the club unanimously landed on. I think the problem here is more the club's failure to put down a single right winger and say "no mate, you're getting this guy". If Klopp can suggest Brandt over Salah and still be a top coach, I think the likes of Ten Hag can make a feck-up with Antony in the boardroom too. The problem is our support was so shite we actually went ahead with experimenting with that for a fee 3x more than his supposed worth.

No, I'm claiming that we didn't actually trust our own scouts with targets to challenge his own with. We did worse than that and sacked the global scouts when he joined.

I don't think you know what we're debating anymore. I agree most of our shortlisted players are known to Ten Hag. I'm asking why this ever was the case. Why is it a club like Manchester United are so heavily reliant on the manager to propose targets of his own?
The answer is that the structure/decision makers at the club are clueless.

For the same reason, the United fanbase applauds a manager after he get repeatedly humiliated. For the same reason, we keep underperforming managers. For the same reason, you would like to see EtH the next season (albeit sack him if he doesn't perform), instead of sacking him 6 months ago.

'Support the club, and the manager' where every other club has 'support the club'. But we know best.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Not that I am batting for ETH to continue, but why change your mind? There is no real advantage in sacking him vs sacking him later.

The advantage is that if we sack him now we will at least have an outside chance of winning the FA Cup where as if we keep it its likely to be an even bigger scoreline than the City v Watford final

 

[RedDevil@84]

FFS . If you don't laugh, you just have to cry.

I have been laughing for multiple seasons now. Become quite an expert.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Whoever made this is getting banned from the next press conference

 

[RedDevil@84]

The advantage is that if we sack him now we will at least have an outside chance of winning the FA Cup where as if we keep it its likely to be an even bigger scoreline than the City v Watford final

Maybe. I doubt it though. I have zero belief in these lads doing a quick turnaround of form, in couple of games.

 

[crossy1686]

Last season was counter attacking football not in line with our ethos or philosophy. Early doors this season, Ten Hag came out and explained 2 things, 1) that he was in sync with those above him on how they wanted him to play and he made it clear it was quick transitional football with a high press and 2) he was told to focus more upon the youth which meant there would be more rawness in attack (this was also briefed early doors when we decided to go for Hojlund).

A competent structure helps him (or any previous/future manager) because 1) He will have better medical staff and fitness coaches to manage injuries, 2) he will be reduced in dependence for transfers, challenged more on his suggestions and in relevant cases, overridden in favour of more qualified scout targets, and finally 3) in sync with those above him in establishing a standard of excellence and discipline that has been missing at the club for many years. Ole actually set the club back many years in the professionalism and discipline standards, and Ten Hag was specifically asked to bring this back. Problem is he cant do that on his own and the message needs to be vertical from Berrada to Ashworth to Wilcox to the manager, and down to the players. This stops player power from running the roost and helps stop turning our club into a soap opra (irrespective of who the coach is).

And last season was great by your own admission. The ethos of Manchester United is to win games of football and trophies, everything else is secondary. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater because you're winning games but you'd like to have a high press instead.

It doesn't matter if we have the best fitness coaches on the planet, the lads are getting muscle injuries due to the amount of intense running they are doing in an attempt to cover as much ground as possible as per Ten Hag's shite tactics, that only work if the opposition is much inferior. Ten Hag being taken off transfers doesn't stop the fact we're set up to take 30+ shots a game. Ten Hag's has been marginalised by his own behaviour, it doesn't matter who backs him at board level, no one likes him and he will go before more than half this team go, and rightly so.

Whether you want to accept it or not, players have the power. Not in any line of work, sporting or otherwise can a manager come in and ask for everyone to be replaced so he can do his job. You have to get the best out of what you have an earn the right to have that autonomy.

 

[justsomebloke]

Isn’t that why he needs the support of the INEOS footballing structure? If he is being let down by the club how is sacking him the answer? Can’t wait for this season to be over but I would still give him till new year to build and see how we fair. I don’t feel like we are at Jose/Ole breaking point with Erik yet.

Well, the results are worse and the performances at least as bad.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Whoever made this is getting banned from the next press conference

Can we ban the press conference? Maybe say ETH has diarrhea or something.

 

[DSG]

Scholes and Owen are shit pundits to be fair.
I actually think the best critique of Ten Hag's own frailties and how it doesn't work is from @JPRouve . Put him on TV.

Yeah, you’re totally right!! We should never listen when the most decorated midfielder of his generation says that McLaren was, for him, the best coach ever. Why would that be relevant?



This is when it starts to become a Ten Hag cult.

 

[Alex99]

It's been answered.

There's literally nothing contradictory about what I said. I agreed ages ago he was too stubborn and it would probably be what gets him sacked.
We also won't have the full structure until the start of next season (at the earliest) while we're waiting for Ashworth.

Ten Hag, or any coach we sign for next season will implement the style he's told by the people above him. If they want a possession based Ajax approach they'd do that, but whoever it is will need the players for it first.

If you can't see how "he doesn't want us to play this way" and "he's not changing the style because this is how he wants us to play" are contradictory, then there's no helping you.

You're probably the only true, "Ten Hag in" poster left, and you're clutching at straws trying to find reasons to keep him now.

 

[stevoc]

Not that I am batting for ETH to continue, but why change your mind? There is no real advantage in sacking him vs sacking him later. I mean we are 8th and at worst will finish 10th. Both sackable results.

Not surprised if INEOS think they want to concentrate on the footballing structure instead of this circus.

His position is untenable, everyone knows he's getting sacked in 3 weeks regardless. An Interim manager will allow Ten Hag to leave and not have to go through 4 more likely defeats.

An Interim might also give everyone a lift and get a bounce into the final, he'll certainly play with some more sensinble tactics instead of the shitshow we've seen every week for the last 10 months. We'll probably still lose against City but at least it could improve our chances a bit.

What is there to lose at this stage in trying something different?

 

[Zen86]

If we lose the next game, wouldn’t be entirely surprised if he’s sacked the next day and we put someone like Rooney in charge for the last few matches.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Can we ban the press conference? Maybe say ETH has diarrhea or something.

Not believable, we're not getting any fluidity or free-flowing movement from him

 

[honirelandboy]

Bring back Fred and reinstate Mcfred! Selling Fred was our downfall! It was never this bad with the two of them in center midfield after all our complaints under Ole.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Maybe. I doubt it though. I have zero belief in these lads doing a quick turnaround of form, in couple of games.

Im sure they would do better in the remaining games if they had someone managing them who could set the team up properly with actual tactics and some kind of game plan.

 

[crossy1686]

If we lose the next game, wouldn’t be entirely surprised if he’s sacked the next day and we put someone like Rooney in charge for the last few matches.

Where have you been mate?

 

[Zen86]

Where have you been mate?

Admittedly not paying a huge amount of attention

 

[Alex99]

His position is untenable, everyone knows he's getting sacked in 3 weeks regardless. An Interim manager will allow Ten Hag to leave and not have to go through 4 more likely defeats.

An Interim might also give everyone a lift and get a bounce into the final, he'll certainly play with some more sensinble tactics instead of the shitshow we've seen every week for the last 10 months. We'll probably still lose against City but at least it could improve our chances a bit.

What is there to lose at this stage in trying something different?

It seems highly likely to be the case, but we don't yet know for sure that's he gone at the end of the season.

With an interim, we'll have a manager that knows he's not long for the job and a bunch of players with no real incentive (including the cup final) to impress him.

 

[Revan]

It seems highly likely to be the case, but we don't yet know for sure that's he gone at the end of the season.

With an interim, we'll have a manager that knows he's not long for the job and a bunch of players with no real incentive (including the cup final) to impress him.

The real incentive is the Cup final itself. I honestly do not think that the players are 'feck it, I do not like EtH so let's just lose 4-0 against Fulham'. The players are trying. They will try to win the remaining matches, especially against the City.

But they are set to fail. And they know it. With a new manager, they might have some belief that they might win. And while it is an outside chance, it is still a chance.

With EtH in charge, if City wants, they'll break the 6-0 final record. While being in the second gear.

 

[VP89]

Yeah, you’re totally right!! We should never listen when the most decorated midfielder of his generation says that McLaren was, for him, the best coach ever. Why would that be relevant?



This is when it starts to become a Ten Hag cult.

Scholes and Owen are broadly seen to be poor pundits, I'm not sure what that has to do with Ten Hag or being in a cult but feel free to make really shit posts.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah, you’re totally right!! We should never listen when the most decorated midfielder of his generation says that McLaren was, for him, the best coach ever. Why would that be relevant?



This is when it starts to become a Ten Hag cult.

The fact that he describes McClaren has the best coach ever should make you pause and question his sense.

 

[Alex99]

The real incentive is the Cup final itself. I honestly do not think that the players are 'feck it, I do not like EtH so let's just lose 4-0 against Fulham'. The players are trying. They will try to win the remaining matches, especially against the City.

But they are set to fail. And they know it. With a new manager, they might have some belief that they might win. And while it is an outside chance, it is still a chance.

With EtH in charge, if City wants, they'll break the 6-0 final record. While being in the second gear.

It could go either way, which is what I was pointing out.

I actually changed my vote to him not getting the final earlier today, but not because I think an interim is a wise-choice or will make any material difference to our season. I just want to see the back of him at this point so we can at least pretend we're moving on.

 

[VP89]

And last season was great by your own admission. The ethos of Manchester United is to win games of football and trophies, everything else is secondary. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater because you're winning games but you'd like to have a high press instead.

Fair argument, I agree.

It doesn't matter if we have the best fitness coaches on the planet, the lads are getting muscle injuries due to the amount of intense running they are doing in an attempt to cover as much ground as possible as per Ten Hag's shite tactics, that only work if the opposition is much inferior. Ten Hag being taken off transfers doesn't stop the fact we're set up to take 30+ shots a game. Ten Hag's has been marginalised by his own behaviour, it doesn't matter who backs him at board level, no one likes him and he will go before more than half this team go, and rightly so.

When properly executed there aren't as many turnovers, and in turn there arent as many crazy sprints back to try and salvage 3 on 1 attacks. Not that it matters, its been executed poorly from start to finish - but generally speaking, a better medical staff and better recruitment structure puts the manager in better stead to implement the system.

Whether you want to accept it or not, players have the power. Not in any line of work, sporting or otherwise can a manager come in and ask for everyone to be replaced so he can do his job. You have to get the best out of what you have an earn the right to have that autonomy.

Players have power, they should never have complete power. Arteta's stance was backed and made clear and now all the players fall in line under him. No one will undermine pep and the same will go for Klopp.

If you can't see how "he doesn't want us to play this way" and "he's not changing the style because this is how he wants us to play" are contradictory, then there's no helping you.

It's not contradictory at all, he wants us to play a certain style that cannot be executed by these players. He should have known that much earlier, and he should have addressed it. It will be his own managerial grave, but there's nothing contradictory in what I said. He has a style, he wants to implement that style, it's not remotely seen this season because of the poor execution, and he failed to adapt away from it.

You're probably the only true, "Ten Hag in" poster left, and you're clutching at straws trying to find reasons to keep him now.

fecking hell do you even read posts? I've said I'm indifferent about his sack many times

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Wasn't there a newbie earlier this season who made an outlandish claim (probably ITK fan-fiction) that McClaren was secretly the source of all the toxicity at the club? I'll try to track down the post, it was actually quite funny to read.

Pretty sure the poster was banned not long after that.

EDIT: Found it

 

[leontas]

He’s not a serious manager. Yesterday he left an aging Casemiro and unfit Evans exposed to a very quick Crystal Palace front three without providing any midfield protection. He keeps insisting on the same formation that has us playing with no midfield and conceding 20+ shots a game. And he’s trying to gaslight us into thinking this is part of a longer-term process. He’s lucky that he can use injuries as an excuse this season but I can’t see how we’d play any different if we had a fully fit squad.

I can’t trust anything that comes out of his mouth anymore.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

What is there to lose at this stage in trying something different?

Nothing whatsoever except money (and it's a pittance, relatively speaking).

(Unless you believe ETH is actually building something grand here and it would be foolish to cut it short. But does anyone believe this?)

The question is who to bring in (as an interim).

 

[Revan]

It could go either way, which is what I was pointing out.

I actually changed my vote to him not getting the final earlier today, but not because I think an interim is a wise-choice or will make any material difference to our season. I just want to see the back of him at this point so we can at least pretend we're moving on.

I agree. I would probably put 5-15% chance winning the cup with an interim in charge, so all things considered, it won't change much (and not much to play in the league for).

But unfortunately, I think it is very close to 0% with EtH in charge. So I think it is punt worth taking, with the bonus of seeing the back of him.

 

[Robbie Boy]

81 goals conceded this season needs to be made a bigger deal of.

How can we possibly make a bigger deal? Follow him around screaming abuse at him all day? We could do it in shifts.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

We’ve already scored more goals this season than in the entirety of 2015/16?

#TenHagIN

 

[Alex99]

It's not contradictory at all, he wants us to play a certain style that cannot be executed by these players. He should have known that much earlier, and he should have addressed it. It will be his own managerial grave, but there's nothing contradictory in what I said. He has a style, he wants to implement that style, it's not remotely seen this season because of the poor execution, and he failed to adapt away from it.

fecking hell do you even read posts? I've said I'm indifferent about his sack many times

Of course it's contradictory. And even if it weren't (which it is), it's still tremendously stupid to continue with a system when the players you've got can't execute it. The fact you've seem this play out for an entire season, with basically no proof that the system will work in the PL anyway, and reached the conclusion of "give him the start of next season" boggles the mind. It's precisely that stance that makes me believe you're Ten Hag in. You can say you're indifferent all you want, but you twist yourself into knots in here trying to absolve him of pretty much all blame.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I actually changed my vote to him not getting the final earlier today, but not because I think an interim is a wise-choice or will make any material difference to our season. I just want to see the back of him at this point so we can at least pretend we're moving on.

Yeah, agreed. An interim is doing feck all, but he just has to go.

 

[Aretak]

The fact that he describes McLaren has the best coach ever should make you pause and question his sense.

Steve McClaren's generally regarded as an excellent coach. I don't ever remember hearing anyone who's worked with him say otherwise. Sir Alex certainly rated and trusted him. The fact that he was (overall) a failure as a manager is a completely different topic. Though he did win both the Eredivisie and the League Cup with much smaller teams and far fewer resources than Erik ten Hag, so...

 

[mctrials23]

He’s lucky that he can use injuries as an excuse this season but I can’t see how we’d play any different if we had a fully fit squad.

I mean, the few games we had Martinez back were night and day to what we have seen for most of the season. We would almost certainly be competing for top 4 if we had Shaw and Martinez fit most of the season. If you consider that we are 10pts off top 4 with the season we have had, its not hard to imagine being there if we weren't reduced to playing Casemiro and Evans at CB and AwB at LB...

I don't think EtH has done anything like a good job this season but to suggest we wouldn't be miles better without the ridiculous injuries is a bit silly.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

 

[Rockets Redglare]

I mean, the few games we had Martinez back were night and day to what we have seen for most of the season.

Which games were they? He was terrible at the start of the season and had a couple of half decent games back (although we still shipped a ridiculous amount of goals) then he was injured again.

I actually think he’s starting to be massively overrated on here, he’s a good player but he isn’t the solution to all our problems.

 

[Red00012]

If we lose the next game, wouldn’t be entirely surprised if he’s sacked the next day and we put someone like Rooney in charge for the last few matches.

He’s not getting sacked until after the City game

 

[lex talionis]

Rooney in charge as caretaker -- or undertaker -- would be interesting. Count me in!

 

[leontas]

I mean, the few games we had Martinez back were night and day to what we have seen for most of the season. We would almost certainly be competing for top 4 if we had Shaw and Martinez fit most of the season. If you consider that we are 10pts off top 4 with the season we have had, its not hard to imagine being there if we weren't reduced to playing Casemiro and Evans at CB and AwB at LB...

I don't think EtH has done anything like a good job this season but to suggest we wouldn't be miles better without the ridiculous injuries is a bit silly.

Which games were night and day from what we’re currently seeing? Even in the first game of the season when we had a mostly fully fit squad, we were largely dominated by Wolves at home.