Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[hobbers]

The problem is you see the output on the pitch and assume it's part of Ten Hag's master design. I think the first step is acknowledging that this is not how he wants us to play.

But there are clear elements in how we play that are by his design. Made even more obvious by the fact we didnt have these elements last season when he was copying Ole's brand of conservative, counterpunch football.

He wants the high press and the deep lying back four and the isolation zone in between. That is his design. Forced by personnel or not, no one is making him choose this suicide system.

He has completely failed to coach his team in 2 seasons to play coherent attacking football or have basic routines down for defending in transition.

 

[Alex99]

The problem is you see the output on the pitch and assume it's part of Ten Hag's master design. I think the first step is acknowledging that this is not how he wants us to play.

I don't think this is strictly true though. If this is not how he wants us to play, why has he persisted with the same tactical setup all season long, regardless of player availability?

Yes, he doesn't want us to play this way in the sense that our performances and results have clearly been way below the level he'd expect, but it's not like he's been powerless to change things up to try and get at least the results back up to a semi-respectable level.

He's wedded to this system, we've absolutely no guarantee that it's actually going to work even with a fully-fit squad of players of a suitable profile, and it's going to take more than this summer to get that squad of players built anyway.

 

[Blood Mage]

Isn’t that why he needs the support of the INEOS footballing structure? If he is being let down by the club how is sacking him the answer? Can’t wait for this season to be over but I would still give him till new year to build and see how we fair. I don’t feel like we are at Jose/Ole breaking point with Erik yet.

We're definitely in a worse place now than we were when Ole got sacked. I don't know how you can possibly think it's in the club's best interest to let this guy remain in charge till the new year. Scary to imagine the damage done by then.

 

[VP89]

If that’s true, then how do you excuse him not being able to fix it? It’s been a whole season, and we’re only getting worse.

He eluded to it in Neville's interview, refusing to stop the process with pragmatism and persevere with the philosophy. It will probably be his end, but as I say, I don't think the way we've played this season is his grand vision for our style.

 

[Alex99]

Maybe there is some manager right there who can lead us for 4 games. For half a million or so. Maybe it won't achieve anything more except setting some standards that getting humiliated every other week is not tolerated. Maybe it will achieve some tiny new manager boost (it did for any other manager so far, even for Rangnick), that will make the misery a bit smaller.

The players cannot do worse than they are doing now. We just lost 4-0 to a midtable/lower-table team and the result flattered us. I find very hard to believe how it can get worse than this. Unless we keep EtH, in which case, I think it is expected to be worse than this.

I don't really disagree with you, but by your own admission, it's a gamble to at least some degree, and with that in mind, I just don't see why you'd already be turning on INEOS.

 

[VP89]

I don't think this is strictly true though. If this is not how he wants us to play, why has he persisted with the same tactical setup all season long, regardless of player availability?

Yes, he doesn't want us to play this way in the sense that our performances and results have clearly been way below the level he'd expect, but it's not like he's been powerless to change things up to try and get at least the results back up to a semi-respectable level.

He's wedded to this system, we've absolutely no guarantee that it's actually going to work even with a fully-fit squad of players of a suitable profile, and it's going to take more than this summer to get that squad of players built anyway.

Well his belief is seemingly to persevere with the philosophy of playing out from the back, high pressing and constantly drilling players on knowing their role inside out. The problem is the style he's trying to implement is quite suicidal if the players don't know it well or can't execute it properly (as was the case even with Ajax). When it works its scintillating and when it doesn't work it's clueless. I don't think Ten Hag's vision is to have the players running around like headless chickens, but he also acknowledges within himself that this is a mandatory step toward progression.

 

[Jev]

He eluded to it in Neville's interview, refusing to stop the process with pragmatism and persevere with the philosophy. It will probably be his end, but as I say, I don't think the way we've played this season is his grand vision for our style.

That would mean that he deliberately sabotaged an entire season out of belief that it would be beneficial long-term (even though there have been no signs of things improving thus far). Do you think that is a sound decision?

 

[crossy1686]

The problem is you see the output on the pitch and assume it's part of Ten Hag's master design. I think the first step is acknowledging that this is not how he wants us to play.

Then why are we playing different from last season? And before you start with the injuries bullshit we’ve played this way with a fully fit squad, so this is absolutely by design despite not having the players with the skillset to do so. And you’ve still not explained how the structure will stop this madness from happening.

 

[bondsname]

Yeah. There's definitely something to be said for having a proper backroom infrastructure in place, but a lot of posters use "structure" as a thought-terminating cliche to absolve the manager of all his failings, most of which are directly related to coaching and have little to nothing to do with rest of the club hierarchy.

It's been like this since 2013 with 6 different managers. I'm not saying Ten Hag is the way to go, but we've tried the whole "appoint a new manager and hope for the best" and it hasn't worked so far. We can appoint a new manager, sure, but INEOS should tidy up the organisation primarily. Everyone wanted to behead Ole toward the end and now we see posts about bringing him back... A lot of people here think everything would be clouds made of cotton-candy, houses made of choclate, sunshine and roses in happy land if we just simply appoint a new manager.

Ten Hag may not be up to the task but his squad is fecking dogshite and made of glass.

 

[Revan]

I don't really disagree with you, but by your own admission, it's a gamble to at least some degree, and with that in mind, I just don't see why you'd already be turning on INEOS.

I am not. I just think that it is the wrong decision to not sack him, thus I am less optimistic about them than when they got the club.

Obviously, the real benchmark is what they do in the summer (and inevitably how things go after those decisions). Unless they keep him, of course, in which case, I am completely done with this club and football (but not with Caf).

 

[stefan92]

The problem is you see the output on the pitch and assume it's part of Ten Hag's master design. I think the first step is acknowledging that this is not how he wants us to play.

This post is important to understand the discussion on here. Everybody seems to agree that it can't go on as it is. So either EtH understands that and can't do anything about it currently due to factors out of his reach (like you seam to believe), or he could change it, but doesn't want to or isn't able to. In that case he needs to go.

So far I haven't seen any indication that this isn't how EtH wants to play in general, as he justifies specifics of this tactical setups (like the amount of shots conceded by pointing to their low quality). So I believe you are fundamentally wrong and he deserves to be sacked. But you could be right. I really don't see how, but still.

 

[Sarni]

To be fair that's a crazy stat seeing as we've conceded one of the highest shot counts ever recorded over a season.

I know he's a mad man, but Ten Hag has a point when he says a lot of our shots conceded are low quality. The issue is the psychological impact those horrendous stats have on the players.

He's not right in any way. Quality of shots conceded is just mildly below average expected goals against per shot, we are just incredibly lucky that our opposition have failed to convert them at enormous levels.

It is however regressing back to norm, and will eventually be where it should be (we should be on 17-18 more goals conceded than we are).

 

[glazed]

I’m very tired of pretending any rebuild will take 5 fecking years. Not a single successful rebuild has taken that long. Arsenal were title challengers in year 4, and in that case it only took that long because of how young the core squad was.

Realistically by the second year you should see a clear change and improvement in playing style with an obvious path to improvement

Arsenal weren't as far gone as us. We have much stricter FFP, we still have the Glazers, we have shite facilities while they have state of the art. And even then they have yet to win anything.

Fans just say what they want to happen without any critical facilities.

 

[VP89]

That would mean that he deliberately sabotaged an entire season out of belief that it would be beneficial long-term (even though there have been no signs of things improving thus far). Do you think that is a sound decision?

He's not deliberately sabotaging anything. He has faith that it will click (like it did with Ajax, after the dressing room turned on him too!). Of course the 'when' in that is a bit unknown and when players drop like flies it doesn't help maintain continuity in a particular system.
This is not to exonerate him from all fault of course, but just trying to contextualise his stubbornness and the logic behind it. That stubbornness may well get him sacked, who knows.

Then why are we playing different from last season? And before you start with the injuries bullshit we’ve played this way with a fully fit squad, so this is absolutely by design despite not having the players with the skillset to do so. And you’ve still not explained how the structure will stop this madness from happening.

Last season was counter attacking football not in line with our ethos or philosophy. Early doors this season, Ten Hag came out and explained 2 things, 1) that he was in sync with those above him on how they wanted him to play and he made it clear it was quick transitional football with a high press and 2) he was told to focus more upon the youth which meant there would be more rawness in attack (this was also briefed early doors when we decided to go for Hojlund).

A competent structure helps him (or any previous/future manager) because 1) He will have better medical staff and fitness coaches to manage injuries, 2) he will be reduced in dependence for transfers, challenged more on his suggestions and in relevant cases, overridden in favour of more qualified scout targets, and finally 3) in sync with those above him in establishing a standard of excellence and discipline that has been missing at the club for many years. Ole actually set the club back many years in the professionalism and discipline standards, and Ten Hag was specifically asked to bring this back. Problem is he cant do that on his own and the message needs to be vertical from Berrada to Ashworth to Wilcox to the manager, and down to the players. This stops player power from running the roost and helps stop turning our club into a soap opra (irrespective of who the coach is).

This post is important to understand the discussion on here. Everybody seems to agree that it can't go on as it is. So either EtH understands that and can't do anything about it currently due to factors out of his reach (like you seam to believe), or he could change it, but doesn't want to or isn't able to. In that case he needs to go.

So far I haven't seen any indication that this isn't how EtH wants to play in general, as he justifies specifics of this tactical setups (like the amount of shots conceded by pointing to their low quality). So I believe you are fundamentally wrong and he deserves to be sacked. But you could be right. I really don't see how, but still.

Cheers, I'm trying to actually explain and work with those on the other side of the fence to give some context here. I'll wait and see how long it is until I'm called a worshippper or a cultist, despite acknowledging that it can't be argued against sacking him either.

 

[Roane]

You do not need one for a caretaker or to promote Shtiv McLaren for 4 matches.

EtH has only a season left in his contract, so at most we would need to pay him 9m. But considering that we are not in UCL next season (even mathematically), that has now dropped to 6.75m. So that cost is going to be there if we sign him now, one month for now.

The only way it isn't is if he walks away which he clearly has no intention to do.

I read this thread a lot but don't comment much. Find it a little too much at times with the responses.

That said I am kind of picking on your point here, but genuinely as a question/discussing point and not to have, what I feel happens often on this thread, a go at you or your points.

The point in question is the 9m payment.

Now I don't know the answer, hence the post. But would it not be that this season ETH had got into the CL so the pay off would be more?

As I understand players have contracts whereby getting into the CL means more money in wages. So this season a player on say 90k will have been paid 100k. For the whole season.

I'm assuming managers have similar "bonuses" in their contracts?

As they got into the CL that would be for the whole of the season despite early exit? Not qualifying this season would, taking my above example, mean 90k for the whole of next season despite even winning the Prem for example? The bonus kicking in when won and qualification for the CL achieved.

My point is would sacking eth at the end of the season be cheaper than now? As sacking him now would be sacking a manager that achieved CL?

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Close this thread, we need people to channel their thoughts and ideas on other threads because everything now is sounding like a broken record.

ETH has been the biggest disappointment in the recent memory. How people are seeing it now is the astonishing part.

How can you win a football game without a midfield. Us who saw it long ago @el3mel being another one, we were called names.

We ship 4 goals 4 goals like it's normal business. Not even 4-4 or 4-3.. Naaaah we leak 4 goals while scoring none but people miraculously want ETH to be a Pep competitor.

How many times has Pep leaked 4 goals without scoring in his City career.
How can a top coach be leaking 6,7,4, goals like every 3 months in a 2 year period?
Any person supporting this kind of football and manager is a disgrace and utter delusional.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

It's been like this since 2013 with 6 different managers. I'm not saying Ten Hag is the way to go, but we've tried the whole "appoint a new manager and hope for the best" and it hasn't worked so far. We can appoint a new manager, sure, but INEOS should tidy up the organisation primarily. Everyone wanted to behead Ole toward the end and now we see posts about bringing him back... A lot of people here think everything would be clouds made of cotton-candy, houses made of choclate, sunshine and roses in happy land if we just simply appoint a new manager.

Ten Hag may not be up to the task but his squad is fecking dogshite and made of glass.

My point is that virtually everyone in here agrees the organizational structure is a mess that has to be cleaned up and that has exacerbated all our problems since SAF retired.

However, while it's made every manager's job more difficult (and imposed a ceiling on what they can realistically achieve here), it ultimately doesn't absolve them of their failings. Using "structure" as a magic incantation doesn't negate the fact that ETH has failed to achieve even the bare minimum requirements this season, and has instead delivered performances and results of the lowest possible quality.

 

[glazed]

How does a serious journalist like Mitten actually think this? This is unequivocally the worst coached side in the league and as bad as we’ve ever been post-SAF.

I know that dipper gobshite Carragher was saying it last night but it seems to me a bit unlikely that a man with a reputation for being a very good coach is in fact a terrible coach. Might there be some other factor at work here? Is it possible that there is some complexity in play here? Some other reasons?

 

[Winrar]

Close this thread, we need people to channel their thoughts and ideas on other threads because everything now is sounding like a broken record.

ETH has been the biggest disappointment in the recent memory. How people are seeing it now is the astonishing part.

How can you win a football game without a midfield. Us who saw it long ago @el3mel being another one, we were called names.

We ship 4 goals 4 goals like it's normal business. Not even 4-4 or 4-3.. Naaaah we leak 4 goals while scoring none but people miraculously want ETH to be a Pep competitor.

How many times has Pep leaked 4 goals without scoring in his City career.
How can a top coach be leaking 6,7,4, goals like every 3 months in a 2 year period?
Any person supporting this kind of football and manager is a disgrace and utter delusional.

Just have faith and give ETH 10 more years to work his magic mate, then we'll hopefully be finishing Top 7 in the regular to try for some European trophies and hopefully win an FA Cup or two in that time.

Our players are obviously not good enough so it's not ETH's fault at all that that's all we have to settle for, we can't dare to finish above City any time soon.

 

[croadyman]

You do not need one for a caretaker or to promote Shtiv McLaren for 4 matches.

EtH has only a season left in his contract, so at most we would need to pay him 9m. But considering that we are not in UCL next season (even mathematically), that has now dropped to 6.75m. So that cost is going to be there if we sign him now, one month for now.

The only way it isn't is if he walks away which he clearly has no intention to do.

That's my thoughts too,however no chance McClaren is going to be taking over this late. I think we may as well just accept he is going to be here for another 3 weeks. We could get a proper thrashing on Sunday and he still oversees the last 3 games anyway.

 

[Sarni]

I see people referring to his interview and how he went on about his grand plan and why he is reluctant to move away from it. How when things fall into place we will be incredibly amazing and all.

The guy is a snake oil salesman and I just hope INEOS don’t fall for this nonsense. If we are going to always require everything to work perfectly or else we can be as exposed as we have been all season then the whole grand plan can be binned immediately.

 

[The_Midfielder]

That's my thoughts too,however no chance McClaren is going to be taking over this late. I think we may as well just accept he is going to be here for another 3 weeks of pain. We could get a proper thrashing on Sunday and he still oversees the last 3 games anyway.

I don't know what the board is thinking here ..
Fire him.. get Fletcher, Wilcox or even the kitman in charge

 

[Baxquux]

Arsenal weren't as far gone as us. We have much stricter FFP, we still have the Glazers, we have shite facilities while they have state of the art. And even then they have yet to win anything.

Fans just say what they want to happen without any critical facilities.

Arsenal's fans were moaning about Kroenke until recently. The facilities thing is slightly overstated (yes, certain things were neglected too long, but they've started to update stuff; it's not like they don't have training pitches or recovery cryochambers or monitoring machines or proper gym facilities or a pool or the various things players demand and top clubs need). The organization of coaching is more important than random pieces of tech or having a couple of extra pitches. Arsenal benefited from having a very good head coach whose vision was also longer-term suitable for the league - Arteta has his own eccentricities, but by all accounts is quite charismatic, and is clearly a good communicator . Even back in Holland there were whispers that ETH had issues around the latter, though it impacted less at Ajax, and the 2nd language issues have impaired him slightly more than, say, Klopp, or Tuchel for that matter: Arteta, of course, worked in UK for years as a player and coach prior to managing, and speaks excellent English. Arsenal also benefited from new Execs (sound familiar?) who were willing to take a firmer line on dispensing with ageing, under-performing players, even if it cost them 'on the books' to pay them off. I don't think Utd are winning the title next season, but dependent on how things go with City (Pep's interest, the case) and Liverpool (new coach and already scurrilous whispers about senior pros being 'underwhelmed' because they wanted glitzy Alonso instead), it;;'s not out of the question that they're competing the season after that.

 

[dwd]

Wasn't it at Crystal Palace where he watched us play for the first time when we were in full-on absolute shitfest mode? Last night was probably way worse than that performance too. It's maddening.

 

[sparx99]

Some people are putting the cart before the horse here.

A strong structure doesn't turn a poor manager into a good manager. Rather, it limits the amount of damage a poor manager can do to the club.

I think it is important to put the new structure in place before appointing another manager though. An interim would still make sense at this point.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I see people referring to his interview and how he went on about his grand plan and why he is reluctant to move away from it. How when things fall into place we will be incredibly amazing and all.

The guy is a snake oil salesman and I just hope INEOS don’t fall for this nonsense. If we are going to always require everything to work perfectly or else we can be as exposed as we have been all season then the whole grand plan can be binned immediately.

It's quite funny how he can turn on this charm offensive when trying to sell his vision to the media in long-form interviews or to executives, but otherwise has zero charisma and communication skills.

 

[croadyman]

I don't know what the board is thinking here ..
Fire him.. get Fletcher, Wilcox or even the kitman in charge

Yeah come on it's only for 4 games after all,did INEOS not see Onana,Antony and Mount talking behind their hands at full time which tells me something is wrong

 

[croadyman]

I think it is important to put the new structure in place before appointing another manager though. An interim would still make sense at this point.

Yeah the lack of an interim is madness

 

[Revan]

I read this thread a lot but don't comment much. Find it a little too much at times with the responses.

That said I am kind of picking on your point here, but genuinely as a question/discussing point and not to have, what I feel happens often on this thread, a go at you or your points.

The point in question is the 9m payment.

Now I don't know the answer, hence the post. But would it not be that this season ETH had got into the CL so the pay off would be more?

As I understand players have contracts whereby getting into the CL means more money in wages. So this season a player on say 90k will have been paid 100k. For the whole season.

I'm assuming managers have similar "bonuses" in their contracts?

As they got into the CL that would be for the whole of the season despite early exit? Not qualifying this season would, taking my above example, mean 90k for the whole of next season despite even winning the Prem for example? The bonus kicking in when won and qualification for the CL achieved.

My point is would sacking eth at the end of the season be cheaper than now? As sacking him now would be sacking a manager that achieved CL?

Honestly, we cannot be 100% confident without seeing the contracts, but I cannot think of a single case where a club paid a manager or a player to break the contract more than their entire contract was worth. If we keep EtH for the next season, we need to pay him 6.75m for next season, and whatever is up to July (I guess 1.5m or so). I do not think any possible way how if we sack him we need to pay him more than that, that is basically the maximum we owe him if he finishes his contract.

So if we sack him, the difference is the salary of a new manager till the end of EtH's contract. At best, we save the salary of that caretaker if we sack EtH now compared to July.

 

[afrocentricity]

Poor Ten Hag had to play Casemiro in defence once. We lost 4-0 to Palace...

Fergie was working magic back then wasn't he.... That wasn't even a one off. Good times!

 

[stevoc]

The fecking players that have thrown ETH, LVG, Moyes, Ole and Mourinho under all them buses.

Indeed, they've hurled multiple coaches under buses.

 

[Alex99]

Well his belief is seemingly to persevere with the philosophy of playing out from the back, high pressing and constantly drilling players on knowing their role inside out. The problem is the style he's trying to implement is quite suicidal if the players don't know it well or can't execute it properly (as was the case even with Ajax). When it works its scintillating and when it doesn't work it's clueless. I don't think Ten Hag's vision is to have the players running around like headless chickens, but he also acknowledges within himself that this is a mandatory step toward progression.

We have no proof that it'll work in the PL, but we do have (lots of) proof that with the players available, it has led to a lot of "running around like headless chickens". Persisting with it to the extent he has done is nothing short of idiotic.

 

[Revan]

Indeed, they've hurled multiple coaches under buses.

Yep. For example yesterday, Onana, Evans, Casemiro, Erikson, Mainoo, Amrabat, Mount, Garnacho, Antony, Hojlund, Diallo and Wheatley have downed their tools to sack Moyes, LvG, Mourinho, Ole, Rangnick. And the heretics are now doing the same to EtH.

 

[spwd]

Yes it is a shit show, but literally every manager who has come in has met with the same fate. There is no escape. These players aren't going to turn up just cause we get someone interim. They will half ass it cause they know this manager will leave too.

I would start benching players who are playing shit, let the youth play, support the manager if I was INEOS. I could give two shits about humiliating defeats, these players need to know that this is on them. The kind of performance Case, Rashford, Bruno, Onana have been putting in week in week out is ridiculous. Something needs to change and as of now its not the manager.

Fecking hell

 

[Amira]

Yep. For example yesterday, Onana, Evans, Casemiro, Erikson, Mainoo, Amrabat, Mount, Garnacho, Antony, Hojlund, Diallo and Wheatley have downed their tools to sack Moyes, LvG, Mourinho, Ole, Rangnick. And the heretics are now doing the same to EtH.

 

[Zlatan 7]

The problem is you see the output on the pitch and assume it's part of Ten Hag's master design. I think the first step is acknowledging that this is not how he wants us to play.

I know it’s and obvious question but why then is he setting us up this way if he doesn’t want to play this way?

 

[VP89]

We have no proof that it'll work in the PL, but we do have (lots of) proof that with the players available, it has led to a lot of "running around like headless chickens". Persisting with it to the extent he has done is nothing short of idiotic.

You're right we don't. But I sort of want to see how it fares if we give it a bit of weeding out and the right players. When it works its way more fun to watch than zombie passing and winning games.

 

[stevoc]

Who do you put in charge for a few games? And they will have to deal with the injuries as well. Basically we are in deep, deep shiit.

Anyone we can find who's managed in the PL before, andit would likely lead to a slight improvement.

New manager bounces are very real things.

 

[stevoc]

I've been of the oipinion for weeks that it was pointless sacking him before the end of the season. But things are getting worse week on week, his position is now untenable. He has to go asap.

 

[Sarni]

Yep. For example yesterday, Onana, Evans, Casemiro, Erikson, Mainoo, Amrabat, Mount, Garnacho, Antony, Hojlund, Diallo and Wheatley have downed their tools to sack Moyes, LvG, Mourinho, Ole, Rangnick. And the heretics are now doing the same to EtH.

Those fecking players.