It’s my impression that coaching and general club standards dropped under Moyes when he got rid of a lot of the staff and installed his own guys.
We have no way of knowing to what extent ETH might be culpable for the Sancho debacle.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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We have no way of knowing to what extent ETH might be culpable for the Sancho debacle.
It is not about wanting ETH in or out. It is about supporting MU. Do we agree on that?
Then what's that about wanting an underperforming manager out as being deserving of Southgate.
Using Southgate to scare people to keeping ETH is pretty low
You both beg the question - what is the playing system we have decided upon? If it is broadly what ETH does then sacking him won't make any difference. He's losing and drawing games because (and he has said this) he refuses to regress the playing style to compensate for injuries to the squad. You could call that stubborn and self destructive or you could say it is the correct thing to do long term. Either way you lose points.
But if you don't think he's got the right footballing ideas then we should sack him yesterday. But then you're going back to counter attacking finish 5th forever football.
Spurs stopped selling to rivals after Berbatov. Modric and Bale went to Real and Kane went to Bayern
Everyone knows this.
Back to where we were 2 years earlier. Top 4 has become a trophy at this stage.
People would have accepted 70 points this season and 3rd/4th with an improvement in performances and overall consistency.
The team is getting worse the longe ten Hag is in charge. Do you not see that?
We went out of The League Cup and Europe before Christmas. Reasonable schedule in 2024. The team has been more open and had less control of games since January. We've scored more goals, but are also conceding more shots on our goal. The tradeoff for a lack of control isn't worth the few extra goals. The team is conceding goals and we're fortunate not to have conceded more than we have. Brentford should have scored multiple goals.
If people are actually honest, they know that ten Hag has gotten away with murder this season. They just can't be assed admitting that the one manager we all wanted has been below par. The best coaches in the league regularly get the best of him. Even last season. I posted his h2h record the other day. It's grim.
Arteta was 37 when he took control of Arsenal. His first head coach role. There were going to be some growing pains. By the end of his 3rd season, he had figured it out. They had a poor squad that needed gutting. ten Hag inherited a much better group of players to work with. We hired a 52 year old manager with lots of experience. A season like this one shouldn't happen. Ever.
Top 4 should be possible next season. Newcastle and Chelsea will also be looking to improve though. So even if Villa do drop off, others will be looking to step in.
You do know that's what every manager does, right? They take their assistant and coaching staff with themselves to their new club.
Regarding ETH vs Sancho, what we do know is that the manager tolerated a full season of mediocre performances from the player, sent him to train in the Netherlands to help him, basically let him take a months long vacation when Sancho cited personal life and mental health issues, and still had faith in him as he was planning a new position for him at false 9 last summer.
And then Sancho basically risked his United career and threw his season away all because of these comments made by ten Hag:
I would like someone to justify his midfield set up to me.
Not having the players to make it work isn't the defense some think it is. who sticks to a system that can't possibly work with the resources available? Adapt FFS. And for those who excuse it as some sort of idealistic footballing purity stance, Utd have been hoofing in into the channels all season for the fast lads to chase, there is nothing sophisticated about what he has been attempting.
Not having the players to make it work isn't the defense some think it is. who sticks to a system that can't possibly work with the resources available? Adapt FFS. And for those who excuse it as some sort of idealistic footballing purity stance, Utd have been hoofing in into the channels all season for the fast lads to chase, there is nothing sophisticated about what he has been attempting.
I have no problem with people wanting Ten Hag out, I was at that point myself a while ago.
Blanket blaming the manager for basically everything without acknowledging the massive challenges is unsupportive.
If it turns out we get Southgate and the football style institutionalized at the club is boring and conservative, it‘s what you deserve.
We know nothing really. Obviously Sancho handled it poorly but there might be context that makes his actions more understandable. It’s also not inconceivable that Sancho might have felt like he was being punished or hung out to dry with the Netherlands thing. We just don’t know enough, at all, to say with any certainty that it’s all on Sancho.
Who was speaking about transfers? They were already here but they were not developed to where they are now
But if we want to do that Martinez, Onana and Mount are good additions for us long term.
We didn't sign a striker that summer
Well we do know he put out a very similar statement when he was at Dortmund and the club fined him
More hyperbole, the squad does not need a bigger rebuild than it needed when ETH was hired, in fact we now needs less pieces.
We had multiple first team players leave on a free as well as multiple players that required moving on/shifting. Now we have players like Martinez, Onana, Mount, Hoijlund, Garnacho, Mainoo to build around and after this summer a massively reduced wages billl after clearing out the likes of Ronaldo, Martial, Sancho, Varane and hopefully others (Maguire). Yes the likes of Antony and Casemiro were not good signings but you are not going to get all the signings right.
I will also add that the signings are not all down to the manager and there have been enough things written about the recruitment at this club.
Like I said before its ok to dislike ETH, but there is no need to spout rubbish about the squad being in a worse place than before he started, that is absolute rubbish
Exactly. They fined him and didn’t freeze him out, and he ended up contributing to the team again and killed a cash cow for them. I’m not saying ETH’s punishment was excessive, just that we don’t have enough information to know.
Doesn't that mean your argument of him falling out with several high profile players is baseless too?
If what we know is the full extent of it, then Sancho is an ungrateful asshole and ETH handled it well.
Regarding Ronaldo, the point of no return was when he said he doesn't respect ETH in the Piers Morgan interview. ETH handled that well too up until that point. It's also not United or him at fault that not one CL club was willing to take Ronaldo in the summer.
No offense, but like most Ten Hag supporters, you sound confused. He didn't stick to his style, he gave up trying to play the Ajax way a long time ago. This transitional football is basically Oleball but with a single pivot instead of double, and he's playing this way because it suits our squad. So it's laughable that you somehow think he's still "sticking to his philosphies" when everyone else in the world can see he's being a stubborn inflexible cnut.
Also, hardly brave to take on one of the highest paid coaching jobs in the world at 10 million a year. You sound like one of those who were genuinely worried he might walk away if we don't fix our structure or something.
He was not frozen out here, and he retracted his statement at Dortmund after his fine and was integrated back into the side after a period out.
He didn't retract anything here and didn't look to resolve the issue here, that is on him, he chose to leave instead of apologising and backing down, that was his choice
Sorry, what?
We need to make use of our fast dangerous attackers and the players who can play those balls over the top (Bruno, Eriksen, Onana and Casemiro) and into the half spaces. Those are qualities we have and should be made use of.
The goal is to create better opportunities than the opponent.
The sophistication is in the execution: doing it fast and precise.
You can‘t play these tactics without full commitment or being sloppy, it is too risky otherwise. We need to improve a lot to close the gap between us and Arsenal/Pool.
There was an exchange between a Dutch journalist and Ten Hag that addresses this somewhat:
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Viaplay’s Koen Weijland asked for clarification on the 'dynamic' comments, which sparked a fierce reaction from Ten Hag. "If you would do your research," he said. "You would see in our data that we are very dynamic in terms of attacking play.
"I’m just trying to explain that to you.
"If you did your job, you would see that we are the team that is currently the most attractive and vertical team in the entire Premier League in terms of speed and movement."
Weijland would go on to suggest the attractiveness of the team is subjective, to which Ten Hag replied by asking if he was entertained by the recent games against Liverpool and Chelsea - the journalist admitted he was.
"Then we agree," added Ten Hag. "We have approached the matches we have played in recent times in an attacking manner, especially for the neutral spectator.
"We create a lot of chances and we concede a lot. It is open and it is fun to watch."
„
No, because I never said that. Read the post again. I said a couple. If my school math serves me right, a couple means two.
He didn't want to be here. thats not being frozen out
"We should aspire to be like Ange"
There are more ways than suicide ball and counter attacking football. Ways that involve actually controlling games. As has been pointed out previously, we still looked wide open when he had his defenders available. Even last season, despite the double pivot and low goals conceded, we were easy to play through. That was with an in form Casemiro, Martinez and Shaw.
His reasoning is at odds with what he does though. The other day he spoke about Casemiro and FdJ being what he wanted, so why has he abandoned that midfield dynamic? Push FdJ up the pitch and the issues still exist. And he thinks Mount is the answer? I honestly think he's just twisting himself in knots. He says he's not trying to play "Ajax football" and then he's saying he needed FdJ to play that football. Even at Ajax things weren't going swimmingly in his last season. All signs point to a coach that a) thinks he's some misunderstood genius, but is b) not actually that good tactically.
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Sorry, but this is ridiculous. He was banned from first-team training and selection. I’m not doing this.
As he was at Dortmund, maybe you should go and see what the difference was in the 2 situations
Control is overrated, entertainment is key, even if its for our rivals. Conceding more xG than Arsenal and City combined is merely another achievement in Ten Hag's list of personal honours.
Feel free to explain it (with sources preferably, your ‘hard facts’ were a little sketchy last time) and while you’re at it, could you also explain how being banned from first-team training and selection (and from eating with your teammates) is not being frozen out?
Where do you think Garnacho and Mainoo came from?
Most damaging? Have you forgot who Mourinho is? That guy could damage a dressing room with no one in it.
You can look up the sources your self, since you responded with "exactly"
Being frozen out to me means there is no way back, you are given a punishment and kicked out, he was given options Bastian was frozen out, he chose the option which lead to the ban (like I said it was his choice)
At Dortmund he was suspended from the first team and spent some time out, he apologised and was integrated back into the side, he chose not to do that here.
He obviously had his reasons, but at the end of the day being banned from first team training, selections and eating with the squad was the choice he made for himself
They were the outstanding players of our youth team that could have easily broken through under any manager.
Ten Hag has spent £400m horrifically and the squad is no better than the one he took over. Holes everywhere. Set us back years.
That we don't have the money to sack him and that there are no good candidates around is both... very questionable. We've spent 400m on players in 2 years, we're changing all senior staff and now the 5 million or so would stop us from replacing one of the most important cogs in the machine? If INEOS actually cannot identify a manager who's going to do a better job than Ten Hag then that would point more towards them being clueless than anything else. We can still attract 99% of managers. If they can't find a candidate now, they won't be able to do it next year either. Or worse, mid season when results are inevitably terrible and they are under pressure to do something.
Watched the interview yesterday and I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to see the histrionics in here since.
I thought Erik came across well, was very focussed, and methodical, and provided some great insight into what the club has been trying to do over the last two years.
A massive contrast to those who, with no knowledge of what's going on inside the circle, call Erik out as clueless, inept, embarrassing, inarticulate, lacking charisma and so on.
I've no idea whether, if he stays, he will eventually prove to be successful, or whether there is someone out there to replace him who will do the same. I am inclined to think that I'd be more upset if he were sacked than if he stayed - largely due to the 'Snakes & Ladders' impact of another reset, also because I genuinely think he's a decent bloke who is brave enough to stick to the plan the club have agreed without throwing people under the bus to cover for bad results / outcomes. These are the characteristics of people I want to have on my side.
I thought Erik came across well, was very focussed, and methodical, and provided some great insight into what the club has been trying to do over the last two years.
- He called out, several times, his agreed objectives and demonstrated how they were achieved.
- He provided a solid articulation of why he has stuck to playing a certain style, even though it isn't producing results at the moment.
- He refused to point out player deficiencies when pressed, opting to talk more generally about players needing to have the right characteristics / capabilities.
- He addressed the 'patterns of play' accusation fairly and logically.
- He suggested his players, not him, deserved credit for the improvements they have made in certain areas when asked about recent pushes back against the press.
- Thought it was also interesting that he stated he wanted FdJ and Case to play as a pair.
A massive contrast to those who, with no knowledge of what's going on inside the circle, call Erik out as clueless, inept, embarrassing, inarticulate, lacking charisma and so on.
I've no idea whether, if he stays, he will eventually prove to be successful, or whether there is someone out there to replace him who will do the same. I am inclined to think that I'd be more upset if he were sacked than if he stayed - largely due to the 'Snakes & Ladders' impact of another reset, also because I genuinely think he's a decent bloke who is brave enough to stick to the plan the club have agreed without throwing people under the bus to cover for bad results / outcomes. These are the characteristics of people I want to have on my side.
Thats your opinion.
The reality is that the squad is in better shape than the one he inherited its a much younger one to start and we have key players to build around in some important positions (Martinez CB, Hojlund ST, Garnacho FW, Mianoo CM) as well as a player in Dalot who was written off before ETH got here, as for the line above about "could have easily broke through under any manager" l'll leave that one alone as its clear there is zero objectivity being shown here.
Not surprised because there's no argument against it.
Very doubtful that Martinez is a CB to 'build around' in the PL and the same with Hojlund at ST. They've proved nothing yet any better than what average PL teams have.
So, we are playing this specific style to develop long term comfort with it. Yes, but for who? Given that the fanbase would get rid of pretty much the entire available starting and bench group outside of Garnacho, Hojlund and Mainoo, and maybe Bruno and Onana.
Hojlund spends the game wrestling with CB's getting minimally involved and having fewer shots than CB's.
Mainoo is being asked the play a box to box runner role as a guy with below average running power and speed, getting very limited touches for a midfielder.
Garnacho is playing tunnel vision, cut inside and spam shots.
What are they learning to follow through on Ten Hag's long term vision? Their development is simply getting minutes.
Hojlund spends the game wrestling with CB's getting minimally involved and having fewer shots than CB's.
Mainoo is being asked the play a box to box runner role as a guy with below average running power and speed, getting very limited touches for a midfielder.
Garnacho is playing tunnel vision, cut inside and spam shots.
What are they learning to follow through on Ten Hag's long term vision? Their development is simply getting minutes.
Mount? The same Mount who is average when he is not injured, but is injured all the time? Martinez who spent half of his time injured and is a bottom 10 percentile CB in aerial duels, who is weak and slow? Onana who makes mistakes every other day? Nothing to suggest yet that Hojlund will ever be a top striker. To his credit, Garnacho and Mainoo look like can be pretty good players and the only thing to be excited we have.
In any case, I think this squad is worse than what he had when he came here. Which is a crime considering how much money he spent.
Sancho just had to apologize and he would've been allowed back instantly
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