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Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Very firmly yes. Basically all great teams rely on solid defense, it all starts with defense and organization. Once you have it you keep on improving your offense.That’s fair.
Would you prefer we were more defensive/pragmatic and kind of maybe dragging out 1-0s and losing 1-0s ?
This is not a defence , just wondering what kind of “shite form” is better. I hated it when under Jose and Ole our teams looked finished. While we are playing kamakazee and unsustainable football right now , it feels like it’s still “better” then the end of Ole/Jose. I kind of like ETH going “f*ck it, if I’m going down , I’m going down Kevin Keegan chaos football style”
Maybe it’s cause there’s no player sh^t coming out or that I am excited to see whatever INEOs does to change things.
We have none of it, none whatsoever.
Spot on. I'd also argue that ETH has gotten this team to play how he wants them to play. Was Mourinho's United this chaotic?
My issue is that we should have the patterns of play and these players should enhance it, not have to play different due to missing one or two players.
The scariest thing about that interview is his answer to the questions about why there are so many gaps in midfield, and why is Casemiro so isolated. His response is that it is because we have had an unsettled back 4.... and then quoted that the settled back 4 is the sole reason we were so solid last year.
No Erik... it is because we didn't play a Kamikaze press with the front 5 last year, and Casemiro had a partner (usually Eriksen) sat alongside him all season in a relatively deep, compact shape. Casemiro looked great last year because he is great defensively in tight areas, great at getting a foot in early, and pretty positive forward passer. The space around him this season is what is exposing his weaknesses... that being a complete lack of legs and mobility.
It just confirms to me that he doesn't even understand what the problem is, let alone how to fix it.
Worrying stuff.
No Erik... it is because we didn't play a Kamikaze press with the front 5 last year, and Casemiro had a partner (usually Eriksen) sat alongside him all season in a relatively deep, compact shape. Casemiro looked great last year because he is great defensively in tight areas, great at getting a foot in early, and pretty positive forward passer. The space around him this season is what is exposing his weaknesses... that being a complete lack of legs and mobility.
It just confirms to me that he doesn't even understand what the problem is, let alone how to fix it.
Worrying stuff.
We are extremely open because our front press really high, when this press is bypassed, we look extremely open.
In possession we try to overload the last line of the opp's defense with 5/6 players. When we lose it, we again look extremely vulnerable and open because of this.
All aspects of our game have been wildly inconsistent, so the 'very bad' is probably warranted. When 3 of your top 4/5 most important players on the pitch are 18,19 and 21 year olds, that is to be expected to an extent.
Don't get me wrong, Ten Hag has persisted with this style and he might very well die on that hill and he can have zero complaints. If he does, I don't think he's going out with a whimper though like ole and ralf where playes downed tools and they all but gave up. He is also certainly not throwing his whole squad under the bus like a certain mourinho. I think that shows as the players appear to be genuinely still trying. For that, I think he deserves a little more credit.
It's always self preservation first with Erik. Must be a bit gutting to be the other CBs/Dalot and get blamed for the whole season like this when they've been our best players.
He's the absolute definition of a chequebook manager. He is basically saying that his teams will only ever be as good as the players he has available. He can't build a unit out of a group that isn't perfect, or push players to improve.
He's the absolute definition of a chequebook manager. He is basically saying that his teams will only ever be as good as the players he has available. He can't build a unit out of a group that isn't perfect, or push players to improve.
The Bayern supposed interest is a good dynamic, get them to pay out the managers contract and bring someone else in.
Have you heard of Jurgen Klopp? The guy came up with every excuse in the book last season. Blaming the pitches, the weather, the ball etc
Yep. If Chelsea had a remotely passable striker they would be much higher in the league. For all the praise of Palmer for his goalscoring, many of those have come in little gluts and haven't been consistently winning games for them per-se. Hes a cracking player but they need a proper player up top. Jackson is comically bad.
Newcastle are good to watch and even when they lose you can see what they are doing/trying to do even if they don't get the result.
I can't think of too many games this season where I have thought "we absolutely deserved that win and there is no reality where our performance vs theirs would have ended differently". Far too often I have felt like we robbed teams. The xPts league table backs that up.
I think all the fans want is some hint towards something better in the near future. Its not like we are exciting to watch from a football quality perspective. We are entertaining because we could be 3-0 up with 20 minutes left and you still aren't sure what will happen.
But isn’t it our defence that’s been crippled mostly this season ? If Varane, Shaw and Martinez are accepted as our probable best starting 3 of the back 4 this season, is it not fair to say that he’s been unable to build from defence for this very reason ? And this has been the season he’s been bedding in a new keeper which makes it even harder.
Not looking to get into an argument here as an argument could be made that he needed to adjust things better but he can’t rely on a solid defence as we haven’t had one available. Maybe his “f**k it” tactics are his response…
No thanks. The first cup final I had ever been to was when Mourinho's United put up a toothless display against a shit Chelsea team who were there for the taking in 2018.
Defensive solidity is built on more than just players, it’s the general structure and teams that are truly good at it are able to sustain it even when personnel changes. Case in point Arsenal 05-06 who were able to not concede a single goal in CL knockouts until the final despite missing 3 of their 4 defenders and resorting to a youngster at CB and a midfielder at left back. Good, well drilled teams have flexibility and structure that allows them to remain solid.
Liverpool, who are not really top class defensively even at their best, handled their injury crises at the back fairly OK despite obvious dip in stats. In 20-21 famed season in which they missed VVD for nearly all of it, and had to play some weird center half pairings, they only conceded 42 goals (out of which 7 came in a game against Villa). That’s kind of what you are expecting, an extra 8-10 goals maybe, yet we are on our way to concede 60+ while still vastly overperforming our expected goals against which will probably be in 70s. That’s a clear tactics issue not personnel.
Maybe they are. I just don't see it making sense that you know that you have an unsettled defence (for obvious reasons) and then play a very open midfield. Why invite other teams to have a free run at your defence when you know it's not at it's best?
Honestly, don't know how a manager that was brought in to play a specific style of football, can then say that he needs one of the most rare types of midfielder in world football at the moment to achieve that, and basically makes no attempt to play to the squads strengths in that case. This is a bit tongue in cheek, but I'd forgive him more so if he decided to play a bit of hoof ball football but something solid to prevent us being embarrassed week in, week out rather that do whatever he's tried to do in the absence of FDJ.
But how can a team be well drilled when the back line is rotating every game ? It’s not just missing one player. What’s it, 30 different defensive lineups, that makes it hard to create a consistent pattern ?
Completely agree with your analysis on the tactics.
The dying on the hill though is the biggest worry. He has decided this years tactics "suit" the squad he has. And the reason he hasn't done short term changes to a defensive shape is because when people come back to fitness, he believes the current style will suit the squad.
I just cant see it at all. All of our attackers are better suited to counter attacks with space in behind to attack. None of our midfielders have the legs to play the solo 6 role. Our back 4 (especially CBs) are really slow and unsuited to a high line. We are almost perfectly suited to a deep block counter style, and completely unsuited for high press or intricate build up. Boggles the mind he cant see it.
Then not having a system that leaves that back 4 consistently exposed should be a start.
Also I think experimenting with AWB at left back etc when we have had Dalot who’s played there for national team and his former clubs was needless and exposed us even further.
I don't buy the excuses in the interview. Martinez, Onana, Eriksen and Antony all Ajax players. Mount and Malacia players he liked when at Ajax. But because he didn't get FDJ he can't play Ajax football. Really? Your system is so good that it crumbles without one player?
We've all seen LVG play the exact same way every game. Keeping the ball with Paddy McNair, Tyler Blackett, Lingard, Rojo, Fellaini and Young. These are just excuses.
We've all seen LVG play the exact same way every game. Keeping the ball with Paddy McNair, Tyler Blackett, Lingard, Rojo, Fellaini and Young. These are just excuses.
You define a system, and in that system you define roles ("How should the LCB play" etc). Those roles should be defined in a way that first choice and backup players should be able to fulfill all their structural requirements. It's fine if some players have additional skills others don't have, as that adds quality and variability (like a CB having excellent long passing, so that you can bypass the midfield), but your system should never rely on these additional skills of certain players.
That way you lose quality when a player is injured, but the system keeps working.
I felt before Christmas we were way more conservative. And definitely since April we’ve been Kevin Keeganing it. Maybe he has been trying slight variations and decided that going for it is better then being more defensive.
Obviously it’s not working but I guess managers need to stick or twist. I’d say the best managers ever have usually taken risks where others wouldn’t and it’s paid off. Doesn’t mean ETH is one of them, I just wouldn’t hold it against him for going for it at this stage.
Our stongest attack has been relatively untouched in terms of injuries and we've rarely seen anything well drilled there either except in very short glimpses. Teams that are suffering injury crisises in defence don't just completely collapse the way we have. We had plenty under SAF and we could still score goals even when going through transition periods.
But our first second and third choice backs ups have been in and out of the team. We don’t even have a fit LB all season. Again, it makes sense what you are saying , but our best and most consistent central defender has been Maguire who doesn’t fit anything into the kind of system ETH wants to play.
Our strongest attacking starting lineup relies on two unproven youngsters (with no EPL experience before this season) and senior player who seems to be going the rails. Bruno is the only fit , consistent senior attacker the club. There’s no meaningful replacements in any of the front positions.
And has been illuded to , Rashford is really missing shaw. Shouldn’t be this bad but he’s not coping well.
Which then leads to the question if a system makes sense in which your best defender can't fulfill a role? Actually I think he does fit into what EtH currently wants, otherwise he wouldn't perform that well, although it might be not EtH's overall preferred setup.
Especially in the context of EtH being Dutch I wonder why he seems to divert so far from the "Total Voetball" ideas. In that multiple players should be able to fulfill multiple roles, so you can easily exchange positions on the field with each other (which also helps better understanding other roles). But EtH's system seems to be very static.
Come on. Antony was an 100m signing who's regularly featured under ETH. Rashford isn't a senior along with Bruno? and then you have Garnacho who has carried us at times and is a terrific talent. It's just excuse after excuse for this manager.
But that's the football we were playing when Jose wanted to be sacked and Ole, as he revealed later, knew he wasn't going to last more than a couple of games because the players had given up on him.
We've played terrible football since February 2023, from a position of relative strength. Far, far, far worse than normal Jose and normal Ole.
He is just coming out with pathetic excuses to save his over inflated reputation and ego. We have looked clueless and shit no matter the personnel involved that play.
I’d love to actually hear a full on interview with him , no holds barred. I’ve always felt manager interviews are pointless cause they are hardly gonna tell us exactly what’s going on and how bad the club they are working with are doing things.
I remember getting into a Damien duff chat with coaches of shelbourne. I can tell you, he wouldn’t say a fraction of the stuff he said privately that he said in that meeting!
Hoijland, Garnacho , Bruno and Rashford are our strongest starting forwards this season. Anthony being a flop doesn’t excuse our manager having no other decent forward option.
I find the need to do the interview in the first place a bit weird tbh.
Maybe the club are keeping him and he’s trying to get people back on side.
Maybe he’s just trying to defend himself before his next job.
Maybe the club are keeping him and he’s trying to get people back on side.
Maybe he’s just trying to defend himself before his next job.
I was only saying I prefer this Kamikaze stuff to some of the more painful end of managers games. It’s not defending ETH , this is as low a bar as you can have, was just responding to those saying it’s not entertaining, it’s low quality but it’s not boring.
There is nothing impressive about coaching your team to rank highest in the PL for percentage of backwards passing. The football under Van Gaal was not only cowardly but also mind numbingly dull.
As much as I agree that Ten Hag should do something to prevent us from playing this kamikaze style of football, I also am wary about us employing another manager who plays dull, safe football.
Agree with this 100%.
I don’t, he’s getting his excuses out now so that when he’s sacked there’s a chance someone desperate enough will believe what he’s said. It’s clear he doesn’t want to go back to Ajax though, unless he can’t land a job somewhere else.
Excellent summation and a case in point with a manager like Erik who hasn't had experience at a top club within a competitive division, this is the best accumulation of players he would have managed in his career. A coach no matter personnel always has to bring something to the table first.
The managers quotes from Neville's interview about Frenkie De Jong serve as a warning, if a system or managers philosophy lives and dies off one player single-handedly, it's a guarantee of incompetence. Becoming more and more evident that the success Erik had with Ajax has more grounds to do with the club's history / ethos more so than his own individual imprint or ideology. It doesn't detract from his success in Holland in anyway but it does limit how transferable his experiences are from that environment into another club.
Which is exactly why from a philosophical standpoint Erik has undoubtedly been a total failure in that what he was anticipated to do in bringing the nuances in success of his period at Ajax to another league, he has failed to do catastrophically and this is why he's likely out of a job come summer.
It's no longer a situation of him being judged on ethos (which gives you time) but his managerial pedigree (which is immediate catering to results). This is why someone like a Tuchel is even up for consideration, if Erik stayed on course Tuchel wouldn't even be in the frame of conversation it would be a heresy from a directive standpoint. However, the contemplation of Erik's tenure changed when he decided to abolish what got him the coaching role to begin with. You can't blame injuries, fixture congestion and player contention for this, it was a conscious decision from the manager which has curated a totally different perspective to judge him from.
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I wish Neville had brought up that he had a full strength team when Liverpool pumped us 7-0.
No doubt his football was crap. However my main point is that no matter the players at your disposal - the way you play should be consistent. Moreover, there were many games we played fantastic football against bigger teams - keeping the ball - with players not suited to possession football (Fellaini, Young, Rojo, CBJ etc).
The team are drilled, we play the same system no matter which back four we start with. The issues are tactical, the system is shocking, and sure we haven’t been helped by injuries as we know.
You sure on this, got a source? It would be great as it would mean we would have a lot more scope for transfers (about an extra £50m) and also easier to sell players.
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