I'm not a tactical person, so forgive my ignorance, but is there an example of a club which plays like that with success?
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I'm not a tactical person, so forgive my ignorance, but is there an example of a club which plays like that with success?
I wouldn’t be able to answer that. I wouldn’t have thought so aside from his Ajax team
His master plan is Moyes delivering us the CL 
Agree 100 percent. If he gets another season this is something that has to change (and I'd hope someone makes him do that as I'm not sure he will do that otherwise).
He (or any future manager) will probably still have a veto. It's highly unlikely we'll be signing first team players that managers actively don't want.
However if he decides to use the veto, he'll be expected to have a bloody good reason for it. And if he uses it in a way that the people above him think is abusing the power, it's something that he'll be judged on in the future (ie. if that player ends on proving that he would have been a good signing, it can be a contributing factor in sacking the manager at a time we'd otherwise be undecided).
Most likely he'd never use it, but he'll technically have the ability to do so.
To be fair to Ten Hag, even after Frenkie de Jong left Ajax, they still played the same possession style and dominated the Eredivisie. He just shifted from relying on de Jong's unique talent for dribbling out of pressure to relying on Martinez, Timber and Blind to pass their way out of it. But there was a video posted here in the summer after Arsenal singed Jurrien Timber showing how good he was at playing out from the back and some of the passes that Martinez, the Ajax goalkeeper (Passveer?) and Timber were playing just seemed ludicrously risky even in that.
It just seems to me that Ten Hag's football, while being incredibly easy on the eye when it works, relies on his players taking massive risks both in and out of possession. Like we scored 12 goals in the Champions League group stage this year in a group which had Galatasaray and Copenhagen and finished bottom. In fact, we scored 9 in the 4 games against Galatasaray and Copenhagen and got 4 points out of it. Even Ten Hag's Ajax, who were a brilliant side had defensive issues in the Champions League. There's the aforementioned 3-3 draw against Bayern in 2018/19. There's also a 4-4 against Lampard's Chelsea in 2019/20 which Ajax led 4-0 after the hour mark. His style is an incredible amount of fun, but is also basically an insane high wire act to pull off. Which is okay if you have the best players in the league like Ajax had in the Netherlands, but the risk-reward ratio doesn't always work out in the Premier League or in the Champions League where the teams have players who can punish you for mistakes.
Maybe if we just splurge the cash and get a Theo Hernandez/Todibo/Branthwaite/Dalot back 4 with Amadou Onana shielding them, the risk-reward ratio will work out and United will be this amazing team to watch but it seems like a leap of faith to me. It's for Ineos to decide if they want to take that leap. To me, it seems easier to get a manager with a safer, more reliable style and build around that.
To some extent, but these are not strangers thrown together on match day, these are players who are training together day in day out, week after week, month after month, not only that most have been playing at the top level for years, they can meet up for international matches only a few days before a game and can operate effectively as a defensive/midfield unit, where is the consistency then?
We should not be as disjointed as we are, ETH will have gone into most (not all) games having known his fit, available players for days before, they should be drilling together in and out of possession, in those partnerships, formations etc... ok I am not saying they don't train, but why do we see so many chances being created from pull backs? why is there a lack of communication defending set pieces? why are there massive gaps all over the field? this is not down to team selection there is something awry with the coaching.
Any team has to be able to cope with injuries, ours have been bad this season, but so have other teams, I don't see any teams playing as badly as we do.
Injuries are one factor not the only factor
You take those 2 out of the team and effectively the team cannot build up from the back. I'd say Martinez is the more important of the two as he provides penetrating passes from the back. The drop off from Martinez to a Varane or Maguire in terms of passing is huge. Additionally for most of the season we've had one of Dalot, Wan Bissaka, Lindelof, Amrabat at left back. Again a huge drop off in terms of building up from the back. If in another world it was Shaw and Martinez fit with all the other defenders rotating injuries then I think we would cope much better.
There's a huge difference between not accepting that injuries have had any impact, and thinking that injuries aren't a suitable excuse for just how bad we've been. I don't think many are in the former, other than people who think that his tactics, training and/or line-up decisions are a contributing factor to the injuries. Meanwhile there seem to be some people who think that the injuries and the structure above him being poor means ETH has absolutely no responsibility for any of our problems.
I defended him to some extent for quite some time this season, largely because of the injuries. Those injuries will obviously slow down the progress and ability to play how he wants us to play, so he deserved more time to instil that. However we're now getting close to the end of the season and we haven't seen any real improvement. Indeed, we've arguably been getting worse. And it doesn't matter what players we have in there, we still seem to have the same issues.
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2 years of excuses and it's still crap. Ta ra Hagie.
I'm saying we could be making that argument but it would be pointless. At the end of the day, with these jobs comes the responsibility. Nobody on here would probably defend anyone who's been part of our footballing structure, probably for a good reason. But manager is the only position that people are trying to give the benefit of the doubt to. No excuses for anybody else.
You can logically make an argument because we have more knowledge.
Someone like Fletcher for example, who knows what he actually does or what impediments he faces so you can't realistically make that argument. It's different for ETH as his role is the most visible.
You don't say. Who would have thunk it. Stellar investigative journalism from ESPN this.
The explanation for keeping him that they want to empower the new football structure led by Ashworth to drive those decisions once in place has reason. There's a lot of upheaval that's still ongoing and so changing the manager in the middle of that is an added complication plus they could genuinely believe, with reason, that Ten Hag might come good if the people above him were better and built a better squad.
The justification for keeping him that there isn't a standout option to take over has a bit less merit to me, unless they think Klopp or Guardiola are going to take over in a couple of years who else is currently unavailable that would be even close to a guaranteed success? Whether we change manager this year, next year or in 10 years it is likely to be a bit of a gamble (as Ten Hag was), I'm not sure why this year's list of options is seen as any more barren than it has been previously. When we were looking for a manager 2 years ago the only 2 serious options seemed to be Ten Hag and the guy who has Chelsea in 9th.
This season we play 433 with an inverted triangle in midfield.
In possession we often shift to a 325 structure.
Say what you like about him but his integration of youth has been a big plus.
His master plan is Moyes delivering us the CL
It's not a coincidence the size of his shiny, bald head
As Amorim goes to Liverpool, Nagelsmann/De Zerbi go to Bayern and Motta goes to Juve.
I keep seeing this. Has it? What do we expect a United manager to do? If ETH's golden signing Antony was worth even half the money, Garnacho would not be a starter. As it is he's at risk at overplaying. Mainoo is a special talent and we were desperately short in midfield. Its good to see but I really struggle with the idea he is doing anything that special, especially when the club is hugely restricted on signings due to fair play.
The issue with injuries for me only tells part of the problem.
Every team has injuries but it's more about what your expectations are for the back-up or squad players.
Forget the defence, if you just look at the 3 young lads Hojlund/Garnacho/Mainoo you forget how little PL experience they have between them.
Very few teams playing 3 teenagers every match and a back 4 of Maguire/Varane/AWB/Dalot would be seen as challengers for the CL.
Every team has injuries but it's more about what your expectations are for the back-up or squad players.
Forget the defence, if you just look at the 3 young lads Hojlund/Garnacho/Mainoo you forget how little PL experience they have between them.
Very few teams playing 3 teenagers every match and a back 4 of Maguire/Varane/AWB/Dalot would be seen as challengers for the CL.
While watching the Real v City game, I was thinking that chaotic football is the new tiki taka.
Ten Hag is just so ahead of the curve that we’re still not able to comprehend it.
Our own shiny bald revolutionary manager
Ten Hag is just so ahead of the curve that we’re still not able to comprehend it.
Our own shiny bald revolutionary manager
Agree. I actually think on paper as a squad we're really not that different from Chelsea in a sense.
There are other risky styles that don‘t work unless you have the right players. Cheaty, Barcelona and even Pool.
Ten Hag‘s style demands a high workrate: which is not an issue because it is a basic requirement in the PL. When the players drop off in intensity, it can be a big problem.
It also demands high quality passing ability, which we have a limited amount of.
These things can be fixed with long term planning. Our club was in a shambles, we are about halfway there.
The squad needs to be balanced and have more quality on the bench. The striker situation is a prime example of the mess this club is.
It's basically LVG all over again. Stumbling upon youth because of injuries, whist simultaneously serving up horrid football and results.
This teenage arc is a load of rubbish. We've relied on two teenagers, Garnacho and Mainoo. That's it. These aren't two chumps that we've dragged in from the academy to fill in for injuries. It's two genuine world class potential players.
Arsenal didn't use this excuse when Saka, Martinelli and Rowe played (in 20/21 these three contributed almost 7,000mins for Arsenal in all comps). We never used this excuse when LVG used countless teenagers. Or any other time we've had teenagers join the senior team. Stop with this crap please.
Arsenal didn't use this excuse when Saka, Martinelli and Rowe played (in 20/21 these three contributed almost 7,000mins for Arsenal in all comps). We never used this excuse when LVG used countless teenagers. Or any other time we've had teenagers join the senior team. Stop with this crap please.
Anyone still peddling the 'let's waste another season confirming what an abject failure of a manager he is' line should read the Athletic evisceration of our tactics vs Liverpool.
None of these failures are player dependent, they are all because of a diabolic structure and rubbish tactics, and asking every player to do far too much.
Shaw and Martinez would fare no better than AWB and Kambwala in addressing our openness. Liverpool would still have had 30 shots.
None of these failures are player dependent, they are all because of a diabolic structure and rubbish tactics, and asking every player to do far too much.
Shaw and Martinez would fare no better than AWB and Kambwala in addressing our openness. Liverpool would still have had 30 shots.
A little bit yeah, it's a bit more exciting than LVG I guess.
Would also be interesting to see minutes played by players age 30 and over, I think you’d be quite high on that too.
A lot of the Ipswich play this season (and last) has been about creating numerical advantage, so it’s obviously worked well for us in the lower leagues. It does mean conceding a fair few goals though, and you need fullbacks with an absolute motor on them.
That's why they need to learn from the Glazers mistakes and leave hiring the new manager to actual specialists.
The two 'midfielders' generally play so high up that I think 4141 is a more accurate description of what it looks like. But I guess 4141 and 433 with two very attacking midfielders is the same thing, so either is accurate. I don't think 'inverted triangle' really does it justice how big the gap is between the base and the other two though.
Agree
316 sometimes. The two 433 variants are basic Dutch formations.
Or a player that can dribble through the pressing like FdJ.
We knew this would happen though. We'd faff around and end up with 4th or 5th choice after everyone else picks up the best managers available.
True he did say that. Of those two theories neither makes sense, to me anyway. The former wouldn't make sense as most of the squad would need to change to make it work (if it even can) in which case it's a waste of time forcing players not suited to it to persevere with it now to the detriment of the current season, if you're only going to replace them later. The latter is more likely but doesn't make much sense either, because surely he must see it isn't working on just about any level. It's a style of play that makes us simultaneously weak in defence and poor in attack.
If Nagelsmann signs for Bayern, we have to do everything in our power to shake Alonso loose from Leverkusen.
If any of them were snapped up, I 'd guess the majority of the caf would have an issue with them.
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