It would be a real slap in the face for the 4 previous managers who lost their job for much less if he did.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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It would be a real slap in the face for the 4 previous managers who lost their job for much less if he did.
Forget it. Alonso already confirmed that he will stay and even if you should be able to convince him, are you ready to pay the price to Leverkusen that they will set very high for breaking his word and disrupting their season planning? Rolfes would demand a fee the world hasn't seen yet for a manager. Can you afford to spent 50m or more on a manager? Reports are United even struggles to sack EtH due to the around 10m they would have to pay out to him.
No potential new manager is flawless. Whoever our next manager is it will be a huge gamble.
But no one with a brain should have an issue with gambling on any of them rather than throwing another season down the shitter with Ten Hag.
Exactly and that includes “we need to make CL next season as a minimum”.
Im not saying CL should not be a target , I’m saying that regardless of manager next year, building towards having a more balanced squad (regardless of manager) , bring better at sales/buys, offloading fat in the squad and generally having a longer term club strategy will be more important then any manager.
Things don’t have to get worse before they get better but a longer term plan may involve some backwards steps in the short term.
Not sure to be honest, our only senior players over 30 are Maguire, Evans, Eriksen, Varane and Casemiro.
Casemiro and Eriksen have missed a lot of games through injuries and in Eriksens case falling out of favour the last few months. Varane's played a lot since Xmas but was frozen out by Ten Hag for 3 months before that for whatever reason.
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I would not be just a muffin',
My head all full of stuffin',
My heart all full of pain;
And perhaps I'd deserve you and be
Even worthy even you
If I only had a brain.
What a lovely joy it is to read a measured criticism like this! And it can be done by a random person even. Thank you.
I think you might be onto some very relevant points that haven’t been fully clear to me. Some of the recurring issues are clearly to do with having wide attackers moving lightning fast on deep runs, playmakers going for that route consistently, inside midfielders pushing up to assist attackers, and defenders/DM moving carefully/anxiously after. This is mostly what leaves enormous and consistent gaps in midfield and on the flanks in particular. This isn’t rectified, even if other things are, so expect it to be a soft belly of the current approach.
A few caveats: 1) Ten Hag has not only been at Ajax. He has handled very/exceptionally well as different circumstances as the Bayern B squad and hitting from below with Utrecht in eredivisie. Forget about levels for a minute, and acknowledge that these are teams with very different player capacities and different options for how to control a game, and Ten Hag has been regularily commended on his adeptness in adapting to circumstances and different challenges, which undermines somewhat the idea that he will not be able to tailor his tactical ideals to different means successfully. 2) Last season, he made more or less this squad of players play very differently to what we have seen this year. He did not arrive at a club where players had an established and well functioning way of playing, quite the opposite. It wasn’t flawless, neither was it anything remotely akin to the inexplicable performances we have seen so many of this season.
This leads me to believe that Ten Hag’s ideals are probably more adaptable than you give credence to in your post. I’d also expect - from a tactical point of view - if he’s given another season with normal rotations and a few new players of the right profile, is to make some improvements on last season’s performances, which would then put us in contention for top 2 or 3 and give us a shot at going deep in any European competition.
The caveat to my caveats is if the players or the higher ups lose faith in his way forward. I’m not talking about sabotage or dressing room rebellion, but about players needing to have full belief in a system operating with calculated risks, in order to be able to execute it at the very highest level. If their head drops, or the new leaders (Ashworth, Brailsford etc) doesn’t believe in his tacticl ideals and support them with player sales and buys, it will not work either way. This is nigh on impossible to have an opinion on from the outside, though, and is where I put my hopes in that these kind of evaluations and processes are going to take a turn for the better compared to the last ten years.
Agree with this. There's no question that alongside the executive appointments they're sounding out potential new head coaches.
INEOS have a free hit as it stands.. If ETH goes, then I'm not sure anyone could really argue that it was the wrong decision, assuming things continue as they are and he misses the CL. If he stays and there's another season of failure, or worse, they have to sack him mid-season when it's going to be impossible to appoint a decent replacement, they look naïve.
Ratcliffe has been ruthless in business and has been fairly decisive so far. Whilst football people will obviously make the call once appointed, I can't see what significant positives can be picked out of this season that justifies sticking with him.
Wow
No manager is flawless
So hobbers isn’t jobless
It’s his to be the sitter
On a gamble of a shitter
Squeezing marginal gains
Out of his majuscule brains
While people like Chumpsbechumps
Are taking dumps
Then we might as well be content with being mediocre.
Ten Hag came in, with promises so bright,
Ajax style football, a beautiful sight.
Glazers were out, fresh hopes in the air,
But injuries struck, leaving us bare.
Ten Hag, Ten Hag, where's the attack?
Passing so slow, we want our spirit back.
We've seen this before, under Moyes and Van Gaal,
Dull and lifeless, we're starting to fall.
Rashford went down, and Sancho got lost,
McTominay flailing, midfield paying the cost.
New owners they promised, "A billion to spend,"
But on the pitch, the story won't bend.
Ten Hag, Ten Hag, where's the attack?
Passing so slow, we want our spirit back.
We've seen this before, under Moyes and Van Gaal,
Dull and lifeless, we're starting to fall.
We know it's not easy, a squad to rebuild,
But passionless football, our anger unsealed.
Where's the pressing, the hunger to fight?
Ten Hag, we're fading, day turns to night.
Ten Hag, Ten Hag, where's the attack?
Passing so slow, we want our spirit back.
We've seen this before, under Moyes and Van Gaal,
Dull and lifeless, we're starting to fall.
Ten Hag, Ten Hag, your time's running out,
Sack's in the post, we're starting to shout.
United we stand, but patience won't last,
Change is a'coming, or you'll be the past.
Ajax style football, a beautiful sight.
Glazers were out, fresh hopes in the air,
But injuries struck, leaving us bare.
Ten Hag, Ten Hag, where's the attack?
Passing so slow, we want our spirit back.
We've seen this before, under Moyes and Van Gaal,
Dull and lifeless, we're starting to fall.
Rashford went down, and Sancho got lost,
McTominay flailing, midfield paying the cost.
New owners they promised, "A billion to spend,"
But on the pitch, the story won't bend.
Ten Hag, Ten Hag, where's the attack?
Passing so slow, we want our spirit back.
We've seen this before, under Moyes and Van Gaal,
Dull and lifeless, we're starting to fall.
We know it's not easy, a squad to rebuild,
But passionless football, our anger unsealed.
Where's the pressing, the hunger to fight?
Ten Hag, we're fading, day turns to night.
Ten Hag, Ten Hag, where's the attack?
Passing so slow, we want our spirit back.
We've seen this before, under Moyes and Van Gaal,
Dull and lifeless, we're starting to fall.
Ten Hag, Ten Hag, your time's running out,
Sack's in the post, we're starting to shout.
United we stand, but patience won't last,
Change is a'coming, or you'll be the past.
I’m giving you the benefit of doubt: What is your explanation to how we performed tactically last season, and how we came 3rd and went to three QFs, two finals and won the league cup final vs Newcastle?Wow
SJR has not been able to make any impact on the squad yet.
I think Erik will be given every support needed with respect to the squad while operating within FFP rules.
A lot of work to be done.
Just bringing in a new manager will solve nothing.
Maybe, but continuing with a manager who we know struggles under a poor structure is insanity.
Regarding that: I believe he still has the highest points per game average of any Bayern B coach (was that case at some point, can't be bothered to check if some true) - but on the other hand that was only in the 4th tier of German football and he failed in the promotion playoffs with them. In a way an early indication of a high risk/high reward approach running against a wall at some point.
Good thing we're improving the structure then.
So if you were employed in a company where the management do not know what they are doing and you fail, do you deserve to be fired?
One hag, two hag, three and to the four
We've gone a goal down, 2 down, 3 down, more
Neg goal difference in May but our play is lit,
If only we could keep li martinez fit.
We've gone a goal down, 2 down, 3 down, more
Neg goal difference in May but our play is lit,
If only we could keep li martinez fit.
But somehow missing the part where Ali dodges the punches, and thinking that the strategy was repeatedly getting punched in the face.It’s like Ali’s rope a dope, allow teams to tire themselves out attacking and taking shots and then hit them. ETH is way ahead of the rest of us tactically
If you were part of the problem, yes.
It's more like that Simpson's episode where they discover Homer can simply withstand a lot of punishment.
Sure, the point of me mentioning it now though was that Ten Hag has made tactics generally work with quite different groups of players used to and capable of very different playing styles (Ajax, Bayern B, Utrecht, Go Ahead), so if anything, he’s not a stubborn one trick pony dependent on the right structure and players.
I don’t think losing or winning a one-off is a very good indication of anything. Most managers, great or normal, have close to 50/50 stats in important one-off games. Ten Hag has if I’m correct won a few promotion games/cup finals as well. The more important predictor is as you mention points percentages.
And that assessment will be made by SJR at the end of the season.
Good stuff, Redcafe's metamorphosis into late 2000's Rawk is almost complete.
feck you Glazers.
feck you Glazers!
It’s time to get out of United, Glazers!
What were you even doing there in the first place, Glazers!?
You didn’t even properly buy us Glazers!
Are you happy now, Glazers?
feck you Glazers.
feck you Glazers!
It’s time to get out of United, Glazers!
What were you even doing there in the first place, Glazers!?
You didn’t even properly buy us Glazers!
Are you happy now, Glazers?
feck you Glazers.
Well cup final vs Newcastle we were awful and got somehow the win, smash and grab, but truth be told we had started playing really badly for the last part of the season anyway, it was not an odd performance, we hung on to 3rd by the skin of our nutsack, we were also shite in the other cup knock outs, we were not a great team last season despite what some will say, other teams were worse and we had Rashford scoring heavily, if Rashford or anyone was scoring like this season we would be much better off! bottom line is we don't and ETH has to shoulder a big portion of the blame for that.
TBH I am not sure why I would need to explain how we performed in certainly 2/3rds of last season, maybe first season bounce, the tactics were hardly ground breaking anyway, and as good as we supposedly were (tactically) last season we are far worse this season, there are issues with personnel, injuries etc... but the tactics are beyond ridiculous, almost to the point of being non-existent, TBH I think if you let the players sort it themselves it would be more constructive, not sure why ETH's shitshow tactics this season should be ignored
Not saying ETH would not improve given a 3rd bite at the cherry, I mean he could hardly do worse than he has this season, but you have him finishing 2nd that is where the WOW comes from, pushing for 4th not 10+ points off it is reasonable, 2nd or 3rd ???? I want some of what you have been drinking
If I blew 450m in two years with the only excuse being that there wasn't anyone in management who would stop me and provided better consultation, I probably wouldn't complain too much if they let me go. You yourself said there is a lot of work to be done, the new structure will take time to implement their vision. I honestly think giving him another year will be writing off the season.
On one hand people say ETH has been involved in too many things. On the other they are dancing around the issue if he's responsible for anything. I'd love to be paid 10m per year for a job like that.
Has Tim Howard now transformed in to Andy Cole now?
I'll bite:
We set up much more conventionally last season with 2 holding mids and allowing Bruno to play his favored roaming 10 position while defending largely from a mid block. The main improvement from previous years was our build up structure from the back (apart from DDG, it was much more organized and thus improved massively over previous years), and Rashford turning in an elite goal scoring year. Casemiro was also fantastic and vital to our play for much of the year (For much of the season I'm pretty sure we were undefeated when he and Varane started). Essentially we were tough to beat when playing well, and Rashford scraped enough goals for us to get results against many teams. But we were also a bit lucky when looking at underlying metrics, and 3rd probably flattered us slightly. Our transfer business was dubious at best this summer, particularly selling wise, and we then tried to completely transition to a different side that presses high with 2 attacking 8's and it's failed from the first kick for a variety of reasons that have been discussed endlessly in this thread. But as I've said before, the stubbornness to persist with a failing system garnering some of the worst results we've seen in our recent history is really what makes the decision to sack him a no brainer, because it means he's either too proud to adapt again away from what his system is failing to do, or he's too incompetent to realize how bad it really is.
Who blew 450m?
Think.
A manager clearly makes suggestions on positions that need to be filled.
It is not his job to bring in players or pay them what they are being paid.
You can voice your opinion about Erik being a good manager or not tactically.
But there is no assurance that any new manager will win matches without fail without a proper football structure.
Why SJR has said it is not like turning on a switch.
He has also said he prefers investing in the Youth structure than just buying big names.
I would hope that means he will concentrate on young players from UK and Ireland. Though I have no problems with players from elsewhere.
I think they will hear from ETH's opinion about such and such players that may potentially be avail, but they will make the final decision who we should go for. Somehow I think that could work, given this could be his last season unless he can prove that he can deliver results which whom he has
The point is he should not be expected to buy and sell players.
That is not a mangers job.
I am not pro Erik.
But to think all the problems we have can be solved by just bringing in a new manger is not thinking things through..
He was part of the process, he specifically wanted to be.
Good thing nobody thinks that then I guess?
The fact the squad have not given up on ten Hag and that we are not hearing the typical leaks to the press about a toxic dressing room is a tell tale sign that the club will give ten Hag another season. Injuries and a distractions off the pitch are going to be deemed acceptable reasons for why we took a major step back this season. So for everyone hoping for a knee jerk reaction from INEOS are going to be left disappointed.
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