Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Member 128571]

They won't sack him this season, not gonna happen. Even if we lose to Liverpool and Coventry.
They'll give him the season, chasing that imaginable CL spot until week 38....when in reality with the erratic way this squad 'performs' CL was never gonna happen.

To me the squad is still the bigger issue than the manager though.
a plethora of managers failed here, the next manager will fail too, unless he's allowed to get rid of 10 players in one transfer window.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

If we beat Coventry he'll get to the end of the season before being sacked.

If we lose to Coventry I think he'll either be sacked after that or when it becomes mathematically impossible to make the top 5.

Either way he's clearly not going to be here next season.

 

[stevoc]

I'm not even sure winning the FA Cup would save him. Just get the feeling that his time is up regardless of results. Performances haven't been anywhere near good enough.

Nor should it.

 

[Toshey]

Criminal to put Rashford on for his daily jog.
Amad would have ran his socks off...

Criminal to put McTominay on when we need composed players on the pitch...

 

[golden_blunder]

If Sir Jim fired ETH in the morning and appointed a committee of Bruno, Casemiro and Harry to run the team until the end of the season , how do you think that would work out ?

Probably not any worse

 

[stevoc]

Criminal to put Rashford on for his daily jog.
Amad would have ran his socks off...

Criminal to put McTominay on

More like it, a mate of mine said to me months ago. ''If Ten Hag continues this obsession of trying to shoehorn McTominay into every match it'll get him sacked.'' Looking like that'll come true.

 

[JPRouve]

So what do you suggest? Full scorched earth sell the entire squad and start from scratch?

Because people have been blaming ''this squad'' for letting managers down for 10 years, disregarding the fact we've had about 3 different squads in that time. There's even some that subscribe to the theory that the ''toxic culture'' will persist if we only sell some of the squad. Ralf talked about open heart surgery 2 years ago, we've done that. About 16 senior players have left since Ten Hag came in and he's signed 10-12 to replace them. Yet here we are still shit and arguably worse than when he came, so maybe the players aren't the major problem. Maybe we just need a manager capable of instilling a culture and a winning mentality with the majority of the existing players.



Yes you can, Chelsea are a textbook example of why it's a stupid idea to try to sell an entire squad and buy a new one in a relatively short space of time.

I also fail to understand where the threshold is. It's very uncommon for teams to totally change their squad before a manager improve them, yet it seems to be what some wants. I do agree on the idea of selling a number of players and bringing better ones or simply for the purpose of "freshening" the team but it's not realistic or sensible to always bring up the lack of complete squad turnover.

People use Klopp as an example but as far as I remember his CL winning team had Firmino, Mignolet, Henderson, Sturridge, Milner, Origi, Lallana and many others that came from previous regimes. He largely built a new starting eleven over time but the squad as a whole kept a lot of leftovers which is what nearly all teams not named City have generally done. Managers are almost never in a situation where they have an entire 11 made of their signings or even their dream profiles, let alone an entire squad of 20+ players.

 

[sugar_kane]

Criminal to put Rashford on for his daily jog.
Amad would have ran his socks off...

Criminal to put McTominay on when we need composed players on the pitch...

I don’t disagree that McTominay is dire but Casemiro was horrendous, he was playing like a 60 year old man.

Who are the alternatives? Amrabat is shite too.

 

[Lash]

There was five minutes at the end where we did control the game better than we generally do. Otherwise it was a chaotic game that relied on both teams being absolutely inept.

That was a wild 5 mins where we where the fans were ole-ing and we were keeping possession well. Then decided that was too boring and started booting the ball to them.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Coventry have a genuine chance.

 

[matherto]

I want to say regardless of the results I don't want him purely because of the suicidal approach he's taken this season but the approach has led to the results so I definitely don't want him.

I can't believe he thinks having a front six pressing up high and a back four sitting deep is a good idea, leaving the entirety of the midfield free for the opposition every bloody game. Even Stevie Wonder could see that's the most stupid tactic going.

 

[Sarni]

He dismissed this as being important after the game last night, incidentally.

It's not just that he doesn't know how to fix it - he apparently genuinely doesn't believe that teams peppering the goal with shots is a problem in the first place. I'd like to think he's not actually that stupid and has simply completely lost his head at this point, but it's worrying when seemingly every other human being on the planet can see how bad this is and he's publically saying everything's fine.

He's just looking at goals conceded and seeing us as the 4th best record in the league but completely disregarding the fact that it's largely because:

a) most PL teams have struggled defensively this year, even top 3 sides are all on course for more than 35 goals conceded, and beyond that everyone is going to concede 50+
b) we vastly outperform our xGA which currently stands at almost 57 goals and is the 5th worst in the league

The latter is not going to stay there consistently, teams are not going to keep wasting chance after chance, and once it goes back to normal we will be conceding 60+ goals a season playing this way. It's inevitable.

 

[Toshey]

Alternatively you can play Mount instead of Casemiro and put Amad on, he would have ran his socks off. Or play Eriksen to control the ball.
Or play Amrabat, the midfielder you raved about the whole summer.

Also. Guardiola has no problem to withdraw Kevin fecking De Broyne at halftime for being shit, but our Bruno is completely godlike untouchable.

Clearly ETH has favourites and is not utilising the squad well.

Liverpool didn't care that much about FA cup I reckon.
They do want to win the league, so they'll be all over us on Sunday.

We'll most likely get trashed with Rashford jogging for fun, Bruno moaning and rocketing passes in weird directions and McTominay coming on to save the day.

 

[Sarni]

Coventry have a genuine chance.

I honestly don't care that deeply about this game as in case we win, we are going to once again face City at Wembley, and looking at how we've fared this season against them it's not going to be a pleasant watch.

 

[Sarni]

Alternatively you can play Mount instead of Casemiro and put Amad on, he would have ran his socks off. Or play Eriksen to control the ball.
Or play Amrabat, the midfielder you raved about the whole summer.

Also. Guardiola has no problem to withdraw Kevin fecking De Broyne at halftime for being shit, but our Bruno is completely godlike untouchable.

Clearly ETH has favourites and is not utilising the squad well.

Liverpool didn't care that much about FA cup I reckon.
They do want to win the league, so they'll be all over us on Sunday.

We'll most likely get trashed with Rashford jogging for fun, Bruno moaning and rocketing passes in weird directions and McTominay coming on to save the day.

They did care. We played our best game of season, especially first half, but were also ultimately quite lucky that they did not capitalize more in the opening minutes of second half where they could have realistically ended the game.

I don't think we will play with the same intensity this Sunday, and Liverpool should cruise to victory.

 

[Sarni]

I made my mind up about Ten Hag after the Champions League debacle this season.

I think many people have downplayed how ridiculously horrible that campaign was. We finished below Galatasaray and Copenhagen, two of the worst teams we could have come up against, and couldn’t even secure a point against half bothered, already qualified Bayern side (who have struggled massively themselves this season) at home in our last group stage game. We did not even create a single goal scoring opportunity in that must win game yet everyone just accepted it as fine.

 

[dogwithabone]

Our midfield don’t seem to know when to go, when to sit and when to drop. There was an alarming amount of space at times for Chelsea to play balls into midfield, the player receiving the ball had time to turn and just run at us and there always seemed a spare man out wide - especially down our left. We’ve got to find a Rice type player, one who is disciplined enough to resist joining in too far upfield when we attack and will be there to cover the acres of space we leave when those attacks breakdown.

 

[wolvored]

I want to say regardless of the results I don't want him purely because of the suicidal approach he's taken this season but the approach has led to the results so I definitely don't want him.

I can't believe he thinks having a front six pressing up high and a back four sitting deep is a good idea, leaving the entirety of the midfield free for the opposition every bloody game. Even Stevie Wonder could see that's the most stupid tactic going.

Exactly. Then keeps on trust the process spiel.

 

[NZT-One]

If Sir Jim fired ETH in the morning and appointed a committee of Bruno, Casemiro and Harry to run the team until the end of the season , how do you think that would work out ?

Captain Moan-a-lot, the ghost of former Casemiro and Ex-captain Harry after not getting sold last summer. Thats certainly a very progressive step. Personally, I too have lost faith in ETH at this point. I think, he put his plans onto the wrong people, he overestimated the squad and he is really fecked by injuries and off-the-pitch stuff. Doesn't look like he believes in him being able to rectify that anymore but man, I'd gut that squad so hard... There wouldn't even one third of the players remain. It is a bit heartbreaking, I think, it was the right thing for ETH to make step up, trying to update our OS but man, it failed miserably also due to players simply not being suited for certain roles and overall application and effort are lacking.

 

[MaT23]

That was a wild 5 mins where we where the fans were ole-ing and we were keeping possession well. Then decided that was too boring and started booting the ball to them.

I think the player are not used to keeping the ball.
Every time they keep it for 2min, they get afraid they may lost it.

 

[Zlatan 7]

It’s not that I give a shit about them but it shows people still have the same opinions that we look like a team of strangers, no movement, kicking the ball at each other, sloppy mistakes.

and what team have we really out played in the last few months? Maybe forest. Every other team more or less controls then ball, have more than enough chances to score and we rely on counter attacking and ‘individual brilliance’ of rashford. Hopefully next year after a summer of coaching we’ll look better as a football team but we are no where near that yet.

I posted this April 27th last year. Almost a year ago and it feels like it could have been posted yesterday

 

[Shady]

Nor should it.

Exactly, not even Woodward let something as random as a domestic cup competition decide a manager's future.

 

[stevoc]

I also fail to understand where the threshold is. It's very uncommon for teams to totally change their squad before a manager improve them, yet it seems to be what some wants. I do agree on the idea of selling a number of players and bringing better ones or simply for the purpose of "freshening" the team but it's not realistic or sensible to always bring up the lack of complete squad turnover.

People use Klopp as an example but as far as I remember his CL winning team had Firmino, Mignolet, Henderson, Sturridge, Milner, Origi, Lallana and many others that came from previous regimes. He largely built a new starting eleven over time but the squad as a whole kept a lot of leftovers which is what nearly all teams not named City have generally done. Managers are almost never in a situation where they have an entire 11 made of their signings or even their dream profiles, let alone an entire squad of 20+ players.

Indeed, we need to improve on the players we have in a number of positions and certainly we need more depth. But I just find the constant calls (ging back years now) ''we'll never get anywhere/win the league/be a top side again etc until we get rid of 99% of these lazy cnuts'' a bit pointless, knee jerk and petty. We have a shit season and suddenly the players are the major problem (yet when we have a decent season they're alright), or there's some sort of infectious negative culture that every new signing is immediately stricken with. And we simply must jettison most of the current players to rid ourselves of it.

The truth is most of the current squad are good players, there's no reason why most or at least a fair amount of them can't be part of a successful side/squad under the right manager/set-up.

 

[stevoc]

Exactly, not even Woodward let something as random as a domestic cup competition decide a manager's future.

Woodward set the bar for failure pretty low if we're being honest. He let managers continue if they got top 4, when in all honesty the threshold for success/failure at United should or at least used to be the title. At first I thought that was an ackowledgement that the rebuild after Fergie was a big task and allowances were being made, but it turns out top 4 was all the Glazers cared about. Now we have some suggesting we keep on a manager who's likely to finish 7th/8th and has precided over our worst season in decades. And that's saying something given we recently lived through the Moyes and Ole/Ralf seasons. Which to me is completely unacceptable and nothing more than an erosion of standards and expectations. Ten Hag was hired to win us the league, if he can't even qualify for the CL in a season where 5th could be enough then he's clearly not the man to take us there and has to go.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I thought there was a chance of white smoke this morning but looks like he will be allowed see out the season. The worst is still ahead of us. They need to sort out Ashworth so he start working on a new manager.

 

[tenpoless]

I don't know what happened but he was a better manager last season. This season he seems to unlearn everything.
Because we're back to pre-hag where players didn't know what to do.

 

[TsuWave]

I think we're getting crossed wires on the word 'considerably' which is my fault as i brought it up, but my argument is, regardless of the Chelsea game, there hasn't been enough changing of the players, as i thought i evidenced in the list of defeats, and this has been a feature at the club in the last decade that we simply don't get rid of players until far too late. The manager thing is another issue-if EtH goes there can be no complaints but i do get frustrated when people make out that it's almost a completely new squad when often 50% of the outfield players have been here since Ole's first season or longer (I'm NOT referencing the Chelsea game which is different but the wider season as a whole)

You're correctly saying half a team is now EtH's but that still leaves a core of players that have been here for a long period that have repeatedly failed time after time in a cycle of one good season (or two) followed by a catastrophic collapse, often with early champions league exits and humiliating defeats. The majority of those defeats have featured at least 5 starters from previous managers and even more that come off the bench. My argument is that, as well as the manager, a massive problem remains at the club in shifting deadwood and assessing quality.

Regardless of the result against Chelsea, in the wider perspective of the season, when Rashford is your star player, Shaw is your first choice left back and can't stay fit, Martial is your only reserve striker, Mctominay is somehow playing games for a team that wants to play in the champions league and challenge for the league title, when the likes of AwB and Maguire are still important members of the squad, and Bruno is the living embodiment of chaos on a football pitch then why are we surprised at this point? I'm not saying any of those guys are toxic or bad players, most are just not consistently good or reliable enough and it's been demonstrated quite often.

If EtH is sacked there can be no complaints. But i can't face another season of some of these guys getting another chance for a new manager, probably doing well for six months or so and finishing third or second place and then mysteriously falling to a seventh place finish a season or so later.

My posts were in response to a line regarding players that have supposedly failed multiple managers/season after season. As evidenced - the team is considerably different to the one even Ole had - let alone multiple previous managers. It is a line often dropped in an attempt to alleviate how catastrophic this season has been.

Do we have poor players and/or players that should have been moved on? Yes. But I fail to think of a manager that goes into a club and is only assessed once the whole squad is comprised of players they bought or that has a squad mostly formed by players they bought within two seasons. A manager is supposed to manage, and make the most/best of the tools available to them - that just hasn't happened - and lest we forget we have invested more than most clubs can even dream of to retool the squad for Ten Hag - who has had input described as "decisive" pertaining transfers.

These are all conversations that have been had in this thread ad-nauseam - and which I personally consider a "side-show" at this point. Ultimately, Ten Hag just hasn't delivered and "b-b-but we still have players that were here when" doesn't ameliorate that. Ten Hag has been unable to coach a team - the things he's seemingly happy with - don't work, at least not to the extent of us ever making forward progress of seriously competing. It's over

 

[gajender]

Indeed, we need to improve on the players we have in a number of positions and certainly we need more depth. But I just find the constant calls (ging back years now) ''we'll never get anywhere/win the league/be a top side again etc until we get rid of 99% of these lazy cnuts'' a bit pointless, knee jerk and petty. We have a shit season and suddenly the players are the major problem (yet when we have a decent season they're alright), or there's some sort of infectious negative culture that every new signing is immediately stricken with. And we simply must jettison most of the current players to rid ourselves of it.

The truth is most of the current squad are good players, there's no reason why most or at least a fair amount of them can't be part of a successful side/squad under the right manager/set-up.

Define success Ten Hag has been a disaster and would rightfully leave but you are deluding yourself if you believe most of this squad would amount to anything more than top 4 finish , chances are very few would play any important part in next Successful United's side if we get back to competing for major honours .

 

[spiriticon]

If a manager has to have 11 new players to make an impact, it means he has no real coaching ability as he can't get a tune out of existing players

If existing players don't react to the managers coaching methods, it generally means that any new players that join won't be able to either.

It's a death spiral

 

[sugar_kane]

It’s possible to harbour serious doubts about ETH without blaming him for literally everything.

Last night we fought back from 2-0 down to be ahead and looked to be sailing to victory, despite losing two CBs in the same game and having to put up with an awful Casemiro at the centre of our midfield.

He made the right call in dropping Rashford and was rewarded with a solid performance from Antony. His subs during the game were genuinely fine considering what he had to work with.

We lost due to moments of recklessness from our players, with ignoring Palmer on the edge of the box in the dying seconds being the most unforgivable.

Even the stuff about our absurdly open midfield, it’s valid but look at the personnel he’s working with.

I said a few months back I’d like to see him stop worrying about league position and just stick to his game plan, he is doing that in fairness it’s just not working because we have zero midfield beyond an 18 year old Mainoo and a crocked, sluggish set of centre backs.

I was gutted last night but am feeling fairly philosophical about it this morning, in that you can’t experience the highs of Liverpool, Wolves etc without it sometimes going the other way too.

Given the options out there (and serious risk of getting someone like Potter or Southgate) I’d let him start next season and review in December after (hopefully) a solid summer transfer window.

The pressure on him now is huge but a lot of that is from the media who thrive and benefit from chaos at our club. Our own fan base of course is calling for
his head too but we’ve proven time and again we’re overly emotional and don’t know what we’re talking about - case in point 90% of us wanted him in the job in the first place.

 

[Donaldo]

Shocking how much of a free fall his management and tactics have taken. When he came in and for the first 8-9 months I reckoned you had a half sensible manager at last. Now he just looks completely shell shocked half the time. The club's like a vortex of mediocrity at the moment, sucking in all around them.

Needs a total overhaul, starting with the manager and board.

This still stands. Don't think he's remotely good enough for this level, or at least the level Manchester United aspire to.

 

[crossy1686]

Define success Ten Hag has been a disaster and would rightfully leave but you are deluding yourself if you believe most of this squad would amount to anything more than top 4 finish , chances are very few would play any important part in next Successful United's side if we get back to competing for major honours .

This squad literally finished 3rd and got to two cup finals last year, which proves in the right shape, with the right tactics and manager, they're capable of doing something resembling success. Sure, they won't win a PL or CL but they're not as shit as everyone like to make them out to be, and at the moment Ten Hag has them playing like they're lucky to be in the league.

 

[Dans]

I think Ten Hag understimated not just the Prem, but English football in general and has not been able to adapt. I cannot see that all this is on the players - there's literally no style of play, at least not one befitting United. For me, his time is up.

 

[stevoc]

Define success Ten Hag has been a disaster and would rightfully leave but you are deluding yourself if you believe most of this squad would amount to anything more than top 4 finish , chances are very few would play any important part in next Successful United's side if we get back to competing for major honours .

Ok what percentage of these players aren't good enough to at the very least be capable squad players within a successful side?

And by a successful side let's say I mean one capable of winning/competing regularly for the league title.

 

[gajender]

This squad literally finished 3rd and got to two cup finals last year, which proves in the right shape, with the right tactics and manager, they're capable of doing something resembling success. Sure, they won't win a PL or CL but they're not as shit as everyone like to make them out to be, and at the moment Ten Hag has them playing like they're lucky to be in the league.

They are top 4 side nothing more nothing less and that has been the case since Sir Alex retired , we just haven't got the recruitment right whether it's the players or the manager .

You are right they are not as shit as some make them out to be but not we are going anywhere unless most of them are upgraded either .

 

[Dans]

It’s possible to harbour serious doubts about ETH without blaming him for literally everything.

Last night we fought back from 2-0 down to be ahead and looked to be sailing to victory, despite losing two CBs in the same game and having to put up with an awful Casemiro at the centre of our midfield.

He made the right call in dropping Rashford and was rewarded with a solid performance from Antony. His subs during the game were genuinely fine considering what he had to work with.

We lost due to moments of recklessness from our players, with ignoring Palmer on the edge of the box in the dying seconds being the most unforgivable.

Even the stuff about our absurdly open midfield, it’s valid but look at the personnel he’s working with.

I said a few months back I’d like to see him stop worrying about league position and just stick to his game plan, he is doing that in fairness it’s just not working because we have zero midfield beyond an 18 year old Mainoo and a crocked, sluggish set of centre backs.

I was gutted last night but am feeling fairly philosophical about it this morning, in that you can’t experience the highs of Liverpool, Wolves etc without it sometimes going the other way too.

Given the options out there (and serious risk of getting someone like Potter or Southgate) I’d let him start next season and review in December after (hopefully) a solid summer transfer window.

The pressure on him now is huge but a lot of that is from the media who thrive and benefit from chaos at our club. Our own fan base of course is calling for
his head too but we’ve proven time and again we’re overly emotional and don’t know what we’re talking about - case in point 90% of us wanted him in the job in the first place.

Re his subs, where's the riding the Diallo wave after what he just did against the scousers? Why not give him massive confidence boost and put your trust in him again? Instead, he brings on Rashford who does what he always does - very little.

 

[m1tch]

Here’s some solid in depth analysis. Everything that goes wrong is the manager and everything that goes right is luck

Didn't say it was anything to do with the manager though did I? If you don't understand the point then that's ok

 

[Lash]

I think the player are not used to keeping the ball.
Every time they keep it for 2min, they get afraid they may lost it.

I think it's probably the drilling in of trying to transition quick. I don't think a lot of them are intelligent or mature footballers to read the game for what it required at that point. There were so many low percentage passes that weren't necessary at that point. Mainoo's that went straight out of play and Rashfords attempt to float the ball over the top for Bruno were such bad choices for the time of the game.

 

[Zlatan 7]

If you’ve got players in a team that’s able to beat a few of the best teams in the league, which we have! Having got close to arsenal and Liverpool in one off matches then it comes down to consistency and dominance in beating the lower teams. That’s where we struggle, we need a manger who can control games and get the players playing out of their skin consistently. The players we have are a lot better than what is being made out

 

[VP89]

I think it's probably the drilling in of trying to transition quick. I don't think a lot of them are intelligent or mature footballers to read the game for what it required at that point. There were so many low percentage passes that weren't necessary at that point. Mainoo's that went straight out of play and Rashfords attempt to float the ball over the top for Bruno were such bad choices for the time of the game.

I agree, but he should know that. He should have other solutions up his sleeve to navigate the season, knowing his players aren't capable of that style.