Of course there is: sacking him is not free and cheaper to let his contract run out; he’s won a trophy and might win another one so he has earned some time; too much inconsistency in the line ups to assess properly where this season could have gone (I bet Onana and Bruno are the only constants in the spine across all those calamitous endings).
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Of course there is: sacking him is not free and cheaper to let his contract run out; he’s won a trophy and might win another one so he has earned some time; too much inconsistency in the line ups to assess properly where this season could have gone (I bet Onana and Bruno are the only constants in the spine across all those calamitous endings).
The structure above is changing now. I hope to God it is not the manager calling the sole shots on new hires anymore. If that is not changing with Ineos, then might as well just burn the club to the ground now.
So assuming we expect the way things have operated for the last decade to change, it is imperative we dump the manager as soon as the final whistle blows on the game weekend 38.
Irrespective of that, he is not the man to right the squad. He has made this squad bloated with players almost as crap as he has let go.
In theory. Posted about this a bit earlier - I doubt the structure is going to be ready to take charge of transfer decisions in full this summer. Based on the reports out there regarding gardening leave, transition timelines, do you think different?
I think we're getting crossed wires on the word 'considerably' which is my fault as i brought it up, but my argument is, regardless of the Chelsea game, there hasn't been enough changing of the players, as i thought i evidenced in the list of defeats, and this has been a feature at the club in the last decade that we simply don't get rid of players until far too late. The manager thing is another issue-if EtH goes there can be no complaints but i do get frustrated when people make out that it's almost a completely new squad when often 50% of the outfield players have been here since Ole's first season or longer (I'm NOT referencing the Chelsea game which is different but the wider season as a whole)I don't know what you're arguing here. It is a team considerably different to the one the last manager had. 5 of the players that started are EtH's. 8 of the 16 used are EtH's. That's half of the team. How is that not considerable? What are you saying?
You're correctly saying half a team is now EtH's but that still leaves a core of players that have been here for a long period that have repeatedly failed time after time in a cycle of one good season (or two) followed by a catastrophic collapse, often with early champions league exits and humiliating defeats. The majority of those defeats have featured at least 5 starters from previous managers and even more that come off the bench. My argument is that, as well as the manager, a massive problem remains at the club in shifting deadwood and assessing quality.
Regardless of the result against Chelsea, in the wider perspective of the season, when Rashford is your star player, Shaw is your first choice left back and can't stay fit, Martial is your only reserve striker, Mctominay is somehow playing games for a team that wants to play in the champions league and challenge for the league title, when the likes of AwB and Maguire are still important members of the squad, and Bruno is the living embodiment of chaos on a football pitch then why are we surprised at this point? I'm not saying any of those guys are toxic or bad players, most are just not consistently good or reliable enough and it's been demonstrated quite often.
If EtH is sacked there can be no complaints. But i can't face another season of some of these guys getting another chance for a new manager, probably doing well for six months or so and finishing third or second place and then mysteriously falling to a seventh place finish a season or so later.
Well explained.
They don’t down tools and they didn’t down tools for Ole either. This is just another symptom of the environment fostered at the club. The people running the club don’t value it, and everything just slowly rots over time. Players aren’t robots and there are intangible things that affect what you see on the pitch. It’s genuinely heartbreaking.
I seriously doubt Ineos will allow their first full season as co-owners go to shite because their recruitments are on gardening leave. I fully expect the structure to call the shots, at least unofficially till we can get them in their roles.
Are you seriously thinking SJR would allow for his first season in charge of United to follow the same pattern of transfers which he has openly derided and called out as one of the main reasons why we have underwhelmed so often?
Can anyone name a manager who will not be walked over by these players. He has to be sacked but there also needs to be a major cull too
I think they'll be patient and do things the right way rather than obsessing over an instant impact because fans are impatient. This isn't 10 years of failure post Sir Alex, this is the very start for them, where they are setting up the structure so the rest can operate more smoothly. I expect them to be cautious in this summer window due to FFP issues, a bloated squad, and the structure not in place yet. Not to say nothing will happen, but nothing major.
Expect some CB turnover (replacing Varane and one of Maguire/Lindelof and probably replacing Eriksen and Casemiro. Probably Todibo and Tosin Adebariyo coming in for CB, and then Onana at DM could well happen. Bard or Miguel Guttierez at LB due to that shit show this season. Some squad player CF probably but no idea who. That's about the extent of what I'd expect.
Not sure what you mean. Based on reports I don't think the leaders of the new structure will be in place and their new team members (managers and analysts) certainly won't be. In other words, it looks like the new structure is just Brailsford until the summer. So my guess is this summer will be some hybrid of our existing recruitment org + the manager. To your point, probably with less emphasis on the manager than over the last few windows.
Urgh gutless from INEOS to not pull trigger when he's had an absolute shit show of a season
Have trained the players and implemented a system that actually allows them to control a game?
This season ETH has deliberately implemented a system that is best described as 'chaos'. There's basically no effort whatsoever to control the tempo of a game or possession of the ball. He doesn't just get to tell the players to keep the ball in injury time and that negates any criticism on him of their inability to do so.
Ten Hag will at best survive the season that’s a given at this point and a manager being sacked is something that we’ll see happen in successful periods as well. Its one thing to regress because of injuries, or tactical tweaks that don’t work, or a transfer window that was just a train wreck across the board, but last season before the World Cup there was some togetherness and belief, and signs of a discernible way of playing that was working, and working with Sancho and Martial featuring heavily. Rashford was dialed in and unplayable, Varane and Casemiro looked invested, and there was just an intangible element of positivity that this club mattered again. It’s the same manager and the same players, but the club is so broken and infected with the owners’ poison that anything positive will eventually be snuffed out. Our club is only Manchester United by name, and it’s heartbreaking
A Manchester United team with a negative goal difference at this stage of the season. Wow.
For a start Rashford and Mctominay shouldn’t be near the starting 11 let alone subs. Varanes forever injured so needs replacing, maguire needs selling, not good enough although I’m not blaming him and he has been in good form. We need to upgrade both full backs. Casemiro needs replacing.
Put McLaren in place from Sunday for rest of the season then please go all out for Nagelsmann
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Hereafter losing in stoppage time will be called the bald dutchie. The opposite of Fergie time.
You mean they should be nowhere near subs let alone starting XI
Jeez another year of him being walked over by these players,no thanks I will pass on that
I'm genuinely lost. Not sure what these idiots do in training.
Training is a waste of time with this lot
When the manager says after the game there's nothing he can do about the amount of shots we're facing and thinks we're good defensively, you know there's major issues.
Hands down the worst coach we have had since 2013. I dont see any redeeming qualities in our football where everything from build up to defensive marking is just an amateurish mess
We are going absoloutely nowhere under him
We are going absoloutely nowhere under him
The squad is a shambles and I don't blame that on Erik. However there's a lot of things that falls right on his laps. For example why he insist on gruesome training that is literally decimating the squad? Why on earth is he not drilling the squad against cutback goals? Why can't we defend a lead?
Irrespective of whether Erik stays or goes its evident that the manager's role is an obsolete concept that needs to end. We spent too much money on teacher's pets, our fitness and tactical departments are a shambles and so many players keep surviving the manager despite being dog shit. We need to create a distance between the true decision makers and the players thus reducing player power.
The more time passes the more I am comfortable of having Mckenna back as our head coach. The guy has shown great tactical brilliance with Ipswich often switching tactics to accommodate different scenarios. His main tactic fits united like a glove. He knows the EPL well. We won't have to wait till July to get our manager at the premises (unlike someone like Nagelsmann), he speaks English as a first language (unlike Inzaghi) and he knows United inside out having been here since Mourinho's time. Mckenna knows exactly the players that tend to backstab the manager and if properly supported then he will cut through the bullshit and he'll push for the necessary changes.
Irrespective of whether Erik stays or goes its evident that the manager's role is an obsolete concept that needs to end. We spent too much money on teacher's pets, our fitness and tactical departments are a shambles and so many players keep surviving the manager despite being dog shit. We need to create a distance between the true decision makers and the players thus reducing player power.
The more time passes the more I am comfortable of having Mckenna back as our head coach. The guy has shown great tactical brilliance with Ipswich often switching tactics to accommodate different scenarios. His main tactic fits united like a glove. He knows the EPL well. We won't have to wait till July to get our manager at the premises (unlike someone like Nagelsmann), he speaks English as a first language (unlike Inzaghi) and he knows United inside out having been here since Mourinho's time. Mckenna knows exactly the players that tend to backstab the manager and if properly supported then he will cut through the bullshit and he'll push for the necessary changes.
Ye that’s what I meant
He is on record as saying he doesn't train the players too hard because the physical demands of the Premier League are too much for that.
Well the injury list doesn't support that. Maybe his training is not gruesome for the Dutch or German league standards were they have like 2 important games per season. However things are different in the EPL were every game is like a cup final.
How many injuries are a direct result of over training though? If anything I would say it's the opposite, how many times have opposition sides looked fitter, stronger and faster than us? Almost every game. Our lads often don't look up to it.
Is he gone yet?
Would be a blessing tbh. Who really wants to see us trounced by City and handing them the FA Cup for the second year running?
I am not putting the issue solely on ETH. Its evident that this is down to multiple areas including club policy (ex we let players hire their own fitness people + our preseason tour is horrible), recruitment (ex spending so much on a 30 year DM whose had 9 years of wear and tear at the highest level is crazy) and the fitness department as well. However we mustn't forget that we never ever had so many injuries at once as well. Players look knackered and poorly drilled at the same time. That's on ETH.
That's another feather in Mckenna's cap. The Championship is a very physical league, possibly more physical then the EPL itself. Doing well there with limited resources is quite significant. He also knows our players and our problems very well having been with United since Mourinho's time
True. We regularly have a CB starting who made his debut for the club when SAF was manager and City were still crap.
Suddenly that Ajax-Spurs CL semi makes sense. Guy is a serial bottler.
Are we there yet?
Am kinda at a loss with him. On the one hand, if our players demonstrated any actual intelligence (particularly our captain) we'd of seen this out 3-2, he'd be lauded and people would even go, huh, maybe Antony isn't so bad.
Instead the narrative is that he's finished. There are countless individual mistakes that led to that happening, when his changes kinda looked like we'd won.
And even those mistakes were largely from poor Diogo Dalot - who is our player of the season - who in the 99th minute of his 4,000th game of the season is pretty f*cking tired. Because ETH has literally no other choice but to play him every match.
I can see both sides. I think what he's dealing with in terms of the actual players managing to be available and play 90 minutes is simply unprecedented, and no one would do better. But, I think F365 had us conceeding something like 75 shots vs taking 45 in the past 3 matcehs against teams all in the bottom half. That's also ridiculous.
For me the lack of great alternatives and the fact he simply cannot catch a break means I'd give him one more shot at it, with an actual squad of players next year. Like maybe more than 1 CF in the squad, and an actual LB. That may be too much to ask.
Instead the narrative is that he's finished. There are countless individual mistakes that led to that happening, when his changes kinda looked like we'd won.
And even those mistakes were largely from poor Diogo Dalot - who is our player of the season - who in the 99th minute of his 4,000th game of the season is pretty f*cking tired. Because ETH has literally no other choice but to play him every match.
I can see both sides. I think what he's dealing with in terms of the actual players managing to be available and play 90 minutes is simply unprecedented, and no one would do better. But, I think F365 had us conceeding something like 75 shots vs taking 45 in the past 3 matcehs against teams all in the bottom half. That's also ridiculous.
For me the lack of great alternatives and the fact he simply cannot catch a break means I'd give him one more shot at it, with an actual squad of players next year. Like maybe more than 1 CF in the squad, and an actual LB. That may be too much to ask.
Exactly. It always grinds my gears and ignores that we've gotten rid of loads of first-team players since ETH became manager. Most of the players from previous regimes aren't starters either.
Again. That would be an insane decision.
INEOS should bring someone in permanently when they know their man. If they can't get their man, look for someone else.
Temporary fixes don't work.
We need long term planning now even if that means pain in the short term.
I don’t know mate, do you know? You’re guessing there’s no plan as I’m as I’m guessing there is a plan and the players aren’t doing it.
You’d hope top players showed a bit of guts and too matters into their own hands. Not fouling in the box on 96 minutes. Closing a fecking player down on a corner
I don't know, no - and part of the reason I don't know is because so far under EtH, particularly this season, there's no evidence of ANY plan whatsoever.
Even last season, when EtH was enjoying his honeymoon period, many of us questioned his ability to see out a game. It seems his only idea is to make 2 or 3 defensive subs and retreat into our own penalty area.
It's not like I disagree that the players have a responsibility, but when we see the same issues and lack of direction every week you have to question the coaching
Having another fit right back is not going to change the fundamental issues he creates. Like really basic problems with how his team sets up, how he plays players into the ground, how disorganized everything is around the team, the poor mentality, everything. He has failed at every single level.
Tonight is his 17th loss of the season! 17th!! Every single week is so painful to watch. How could you possibly want more of this or think that a few extra bodies would make any difference to the absolute drizzling shit he has served up all season long?
It’s absolutely mad that people would be willing to throw away another 12 months and two windows, our first under new owners, for this guy. There are dozens of coaches that would be doing a far better job. He has gone from very poor choice to absolute disaster.
He has failed to do even the basics right. There is absolutely no way that INEOS can kick things off with him in charge. They won’t, obviously, but I still can’t believe that some supporters would be happy enough. I just can’t understand the reasoning behind it at all.
Tonight is his 17th loss of the season! 17th!! Every single week is so painful to watch. How could you possibly want more of this or think that a few extra bodies would make any difference to the absolute drizzling shit he has served up all season long?
It’s absolutely mad that people would be willing to throw away another 12 months and two windows, our first under new owners, for this guy. There are dozens of coaches that would be doing a far better job. He has gone from very poor choice to absolute disaster.
He has failed to do even the basics right. There is absolutely no way that INEOS can kick things off with him in charge. They won’t, obviously, but I still can’t believe that some supporters would be happy enough. I just can’t understand the reasoning behind it at all.
I'd kind of argue we're in that pain stage. ETH has gotten rid of Matic, Ronaldo, Lingard, Pogba, Cavani, Mata, Telles, Bailly, Williams, Elanga, Fred, VdB, Sancho, Greenwood, De Gea, Tuanzebe, Garner and of course Phil Jones. Aside from the last one, most of them were at least playing some football for us.
We've gone from having the highest wage bill in the league (excluding, erm, City's outside the books payments of course) to being behind City/Liverpool/Arsenal/Chelsea.
And he's 'only' brought in a handful of new players (at great expense) of which 3 basically haven't played this season (Martinez, Mount, Malacia).
I still think that needs to be taken on board. He's doing the hard bit now.
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