There is no obvious evidence of a style of play being developed though. With klopp there was a clear style fairly quickly even if it took a while to fully embed
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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It's absolutely understandable for people to question the decision, and the points you make about club football being different from international football are points I agree with. I wouldn't personally attach any importance to the job he did at Middlesborough tbh since he took that job immediately after retiring and probably had nowhere near the tactical knowledge he has now. Managers improve their knowledge over time just like any profession. I'd just treat him as essentially an international manager looking to have his first serious go at club football.
I don't agree with your dismissal of the job he's actually done at England, which has been much more impressive than you've given him credit for imo, especially the 2018 World Cup which was a far weaker English squad that had no right getting to the semis. The last World Cup he lost to probably the most talented international squad in the world in a very tight, competitive game. The Euros is the only tournament where you could argue he should have done better imo, and losing in the final still isn't exactly a massive underperformance. While our team isn't quite as good as the English National Team, it is still a strong squad imo. Stronger than Liverpool on paper and probably comparable with Arsenal (maybe slightly worse since Rice signed, but certainly last season's Arsenal weren't much stronger imo).
My bemusement is moreso relating to those that now want us to stick with a manager that we know isn't working instead of trying a manager that could work. I pointed out that the popular choice of manager among the fans has regularly failed (ETH, Jose, ETH) simply to make it clear that the fans thinking Southgate would be a bad choice as manager doesn't actually mean he would be.
One thing I'll never agree with is the idea that once the manager is appointed, it's ok for fans to immediately start routing against him and hoping he does badly. This for me is completely unacceptable, whatever doubts you may have. Whether it's Southgate or somebody else that takes over, they should be given some reasonable amount of time to see if the team's performance improves.
The lazy narrative that we don‘t have a style is bollocks. We have been playing with this strategy pretty much for 1 1/2 years.
This article from March 2023 describes our current style in detail, and it is from one year ago.
https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2...ysis-how-erik-ten-hag-fixed-manchester-united
If you don‘t want to read it, here is the relevant bit:
„Ten Hag’s version of United is far more active defensively. They sit deeper, they allow you to get closer to the goal, they make more tackles, and block more shots. They push their forwards higher but the defenders don’t follow suit. The defense not playing a high line can often turn their 4-1-4-1 into a bit of a front five and a back five dynamic with hardly anything linking the two.
That leaves a lot of open space in midfield and if United’s first wave of counter pressing doesn’t win the ball back, they can be passed through quite easily. Once possession is settled the lack of compactness contributes to United’s poor pressing game. If you get by the first level of the press, it’s not too hard to go directly up the pitch.
Typically this would be something you would expect a manager to try and fix, but with this version of United Ten Hag isn’t just ok with it, he’s inviting it. Go ahead, come attack us up the middle, we have Casemiro, Raphael Varane, and Lisandro Martinez. I like my chances that my guys are going to snuff out your attack. All the while because it looks like you’re in an advantageous situation, you’re throwing more men forward, which just means when we win the ball back we’re going to be able to hit you on the break.“
I think this strategy can work great for us in the long run with a few key signings added and replacements for tiring legs. It favours fast attacking football which befits MU.
This article from March 2023 describes our current style in detail, and it is from one year ago.
https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2...ysis-how-erik-ten-hag-fixed-manchester-united
If you don‘t want to read it, here is the relevant bit:
„Ten Hag’s version of United is far more active defensively. They sit deeper, they allow you to get closer to the goal, they make more tackles, and block more shots. They push their forwards higher but the defenders don’t follow suit. The defense not playing a high line can often turn their 4-1-4-1 into a bit of a front five and a back five dynamic with hardly anything linking the two.
That leaves a lot of open space in midfield and if United’s first wave of counter pressing doesn’t win the ball back, they can be passed through quite easily. Once possession is settled the lack of compactness contributes to United’s poor pressing game. If you get by the first level of the press, it’s not too hard to go directly up the pitch.
Typically this would be something you would expect a manager to try and fix, but with this version of United Ten Hag isn’t just ok with it, he’s inviting it. Go ahead, come attack us up the middle, we have Casemiro, Raphael Varane, and Lisandro Martinez. I like my chances that my guys are going to snuff out your attack. All the while because it looks like you’re in an advantageous situation, you’re throwing more men forward, which just means when we win the ball back we’re going to be able to hit you on the break.“
I think this strategy can work great for us in the long run with a few key signings added and replacements for tiring legs. It favours fast attacking football which befits MU.
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Interesting. And does that hold true if they rehire Jose or Moyes or Ole?
Well you can make that point if you want, but there's been no progress made towards a changing style of play. I looked at that statistically last season when we were performing well in the table, and I was shocked at just how similar all the statistics from possession, to position of the defensive line, to the directness of the passing, to the heat maps, to the xg for and against were between ETH and Ole. For the most part, our xg and xga have looked better under Ole's time in charge than under ETH, despite the actual results being very good in ETH's first season. I felt watching us that season, especially in the 2nd half of the season that were really riding our luck, and the concerns that we couldn't continue to be so reliant on Rashford for our goals unfortunately ended up being justified this season.
Had we been playing well and getting unlucky results I'd be much more open to keeping ETH, but I really haven't seen anything promising or suggesting any sort of improvement. The defence has most definitely gone backwards.
Klopp, Pep, Arteta, Ange - four managers of other teams either above us or competing with us where their style was implemented straight away and they didn't quite have the players yet to make it a success. They still played exactly that way regardless.
ETH doesn't do anything. We're still moments FC because we have no style of play. If he's implementing a style he should still be able to do it, even if the results don't follow, even LVG managed that.
Well, that is definitely an accurate description of our so-called style of play. Hard to believe that is actually intentional, but if it is, then clearly we should not be continuing with this manager. To me, it feels very similar to the way we played under Ole, except the defence were much better organised under Ole.
You guys are making yourselves look very silly.
This sounds like a bad dream
Just try and make the best out of the situation!Ok, I've read the whole article now. I seriously question how being so reliant on "a defensive cheat code" in Casemiro to magically fix the team's defensive shape on his own and basically make this system work can be seen as a reasonable tactical decision (also if you have any similar stat analysis, heat maps, etc for this season, I'd be interested to see if there have been any significant changes with Case's drop off/injury, as even the stats in that article when Case didn't play were showing major warning signs).
Sure, every single manager in the world technically has some sort of style, but having read this article in full, and seeing how we have consistently been torn apart through these gaping holes in the middle, are you suggesting you think Ten Hag's style of play is actually a good direction for the club to continue?
If so, please explain why
Maybe they have better understanding of the game. Or listen more. Could be many reasons. How come we’ve had 4/5 different managers and not ones been successful?
ETH is a decent manager and we’ve all seen he is tactical and he takes risks. He had to get through a season without no LB. Our 1st and 2nd choice is injured so he’s tryed different solutions. We’ve only had 1 first team ST available for majority of the season and it’s a 21 year old. We’ve had an out of form Rashford who if he was in form we may be in the top 4 again this season as he basically carried us last year. We’ve had Bruno swapping positions, we’ve got some young players who we should know will have problems with consistency, just look at Arsenal with there squad and how inconsistent it was last season. Next year we should be in much better position.
Fast attacking football fits MU and our current crop of players. This style lets us attack with speed into space; we create a lot of chances.
Defensively we stay low and narrow so that the opposition does not get a clear run at goal. The goal is to create better quality chances than the opponent which we do more often than not.
When we execute it well, we actually get a lot of balls back from the press and second balls, and there will be much less breaking through our midfield. Casemiro and Martinez are aggressive defenders who fit this strategy well.
Casemiro’s slowing down and Martinez‘ injury woes are part of our problem this season. We need one or two cb‘s who can defend aggressively and a physical dm. They also need to be good on the ball.
Playing through the press is an important part of this style, which is why we wanted Frenkie de Jong so badly. Now we have Kobbie Mainoo, who bypassed Pool‘s entire midfield on his own. You also see improvement in other players in this aspect like Dalot.
To summarize: I think many ingredients are here already to play this style to a high level. As long as we become more consistent with it, I‘m all for it. It sure is entertaining.
Is that some kind of trick question?
2 never had the tactical acumen to succeed. 2 were far past their best on downward career spirals and had been tactically left behind. And the most recent one has shown a staggering lack of nous in setting his team up for success, in squad building and in game management. These guys also all suffered from a variety of personality traits that havent helped such as lacking experience, lacking confidence and authority, lacking charisma, bad at managing relationships with players and with the press etc etc
Look closer I guess? Not sure how else to help but it’s there when the players are putting in the effort to execute it, and it works as we’ve seen in the past. Fair or not though, if he can’t get the players to put the work in that’s on him.
Well you’ve obviously spent extensive time in the dressing room and training ground over the last 11 years. Do you have any interesting stories for us?
We have one less win than Spurs and their results dipped when one of or both of their starting center backs were out. I won’t even dignify the comparisons to the other three managers with a response. If you can’t see the style of play when it’s actually being properly executed, that’s on you.
Was there something in my post that the entire world isn't already well aware of?
Huge lack of "setting teams up for success" for a manager who may yet achieve back to back top 4 (or Champions League football) with 3 Wembley finals in his first two seasons.
Yes, the manager sends the players out with a “best of luck” and zero instructions.
Speculation to suit your argument is not awareness
Yeah hope we get back in the top four so we can go 1 win in 6 and concede 15 goals in the group stage again. Losing to City in FA cup finals is always good fun as well.
Because they were all either average managers or past it by the time we hired them. That's the main reason, the structure above them certainly hasn't helped but you can't pin those failures entirely on that.
It's quite amazing how people refuse to acknowledge this. I asked so many times what were arguments for those managers because most of them had terrible-average careers for us, and you'll never get answer for that argument.
You're right, he must be building for nothing if he loses to City in a final.
I mean fecksake what is with the daft logic of some posters.
This from the guy who was absolving ETH of blame because he doesnt have access to scouts or analysts..
Point is getting to cup finals isn't an achievement unless you win them. We got to plenty of semi finals and finals under Ole. We won 2 cups under Jose. Didn't help their managerial trajectories at all.
Now that we knocked Pool out he‘s pinning his hopes on Cheaty.
We're not even in the final yet...nevermind lost the final already. What a bizarre lot.
Read posts better. I didn't absolve him of shit. In fact I said he was to blame for Antony, together with the other decion makers. Unlike you I recognise that there's more to out decision making process than just Ten Hag. You seem to paint a narrative that Ten Hag has the board bent over a table and has his way with them.
Actually the point was that IF a manager can get a team to Wembley 3 times in 2years whilst getting back to back Champions League football, the notion he's not building for success is stone cold bollocks. Especially if the club he's losing to is one of the best teams in PL history. And when you consider the alternatives in the market, it's even more laughable to insinuate they would be any less flawed. A couple of them look even more open than he does at various times and have been on the ends of big thrashings.
Well with the dour option of Southgate, we have to back the manager to pull off a miracle and get this team to play ball
No you need to formulate your arguments better, rather than just pretending that everyone critical of ETH's performance in this job are also claiming that he's solely responsible for x y and z, and are all blind to mitigating circumstances.
As for building towards success. Ole and Jose achieved pretty much those feats. Were they building towards eventual success? It's laughable to try and hold cup runs as a counterweight to humiliating yourself in the CL. Last time I checked we're not Leicester.
I'm not pretending anything, you can see the content of the posts I reply to not actually spreading the blame and putting it on him. And you can hunt posts of my own where I've said he made a mistake with Antony. Your failure to scope my posts isn't really my problem.
Ole literally won nothing, and he never reached a Wembley final. His best achievement was being knocked out in a Europa final on penalties.
What's actually laughable is holding a CL disaster exit as representative of a managers entire pedigree. You have to be a special kind of dim to ignore the fact that he's won a cup in his debut year and is on course to reach 3 finals in 2 years whilst maintaining a good shot of back to back Champions League places. That too whilst having his worst season in management and in light of major injuries, something you can categorically not say that about Ole or Jose. But sure, feel free to make more things up.
Do you not feel a bit stupid every time you type "back to back Champions League places" given where we are.
I don't think the hierarchy see the pedigree behind Eth as the manager. The Southgate rumors aren't going away and the managerial question mark over what the owners intentions are leaves much in the air. I don't think top four or a cup win will make a difference because if short term results are a big determination in keeping the manager, it realistically means the owners aren't using foresight to look beyond the present circumstances. So it's another way of saying they don't believe in the manager.
I said a few months ago that the contract situation / development is the biggest indicator about the managers future and the current predicament of rival clubs needing coaches feels like there's more going on behind closed doors as opposed to waiting for the seasons finale and results to come to a consensus.
I said a few months ago that the contract situation / development is the biggest indicator about the managers future and the current predicament of rival clubs needing coaches feels like there's more going on behind closed doors as opposed to waiting for the seasons finale and results to come to a consensus.
Without looking too much into it - haven’t Nice hired and fired on repeat since INEOS have been in charge? I fully believe Erik’s on trial until the end of the season, unfortunately for me. I’d stick with him regardless and see how we get on with a solid summer of recruitment and a more stable set up. That’s not to say there have been times this season I’ve been on the brink but the players do seem to like him and I just can’t be arsed dealing with another upheaval - especially with the options on the cards.
Do you not feel stupid when you fail to comprehend the post? I said he had a good shot for, and IF he attains, which if you consider the 2024 form and the run in, and the players returning from injury, is not an unreasonable suggestion.
That's a good point about the history of Nice and it could be a factor but given the size of United and how competitive the environment of the league is sustainability should be the more measured approach. Personally I don't think Eth matches the criteria of United being at the top, however, I don't like the idea of giving him half a season to prove himself as it realistically doesn't provide a credible assessment to make an astute judgement. It also speaks volumes about the owners from a more critical view but when you consider how this restructuring is going, the credible individuals coming in, I'm of the mind they have made their decision.
I would tend to agree with the notion that they’ve made their mind up, whether that’s with Erik or the other options touted, of which we have Southgate, Potter and De Zerbi. Obviously I’m not a pro here, but from my 36 year old seasoned football armchair critic self I’d be thoroughly underwhelmed with those options. Maybe De Zerbi could be an interesting choice from what he’s dished up ? The jury is out for sure. But on the other hand, the football on show at our club for the last 12 months has been so painful (don’t hit me with the injury list please readers I’m aware and it’s noted), so I’m not against another option should it be backed by a team of experts in the field. I’m confused I tell ya !!
Any style that leaves a gaping hole in midfield isn’t a style, it is a desperate attempt to paper out the cracks with a bit of good fortune and graft. This supposed “style” was in place last season and we certainly rode our lack towards the end. Our defenders aren’t mobile enough to support the counter-press and as such we are left playing with an “attacking group” and a “defensive group” all in the same team. It’s utterly bizarre.
Seems like the Liverpool win (whilst a tremendous achievement in its own right) is making us forget where we really stand
Seems like the Liverpool win (whilst a tremendous achievement in its own right) is making us forget where we really stand
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