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Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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@stevoc posted some links to an injuries table. Our injuries when looked at with context are bad, but not the worst in the league.
Our injuries in the back line have been plentiful for some while. You’d like to hope a manager would tailor his approach to compensate for that other than persist with excuses.
Again, expectations are not for this team to do extraordinary things.
Points per game in January 2023 mean what to a failing manager in March 2024?
win%, or points per game. Both are trending downwards this season versus last.
Links above.
I’ve acknowledged injuries play their part. I’m saying if your manager can’t somewhat mitigate those then he’s not a particularly good manager.
You’ve fell into another trap. ‘we'd probably be expected for 4th with our squad’. Assess the facts not the dream scenario. Expectations have fell short of reality.
I explained why Liverpool, who were better before last season than we were last year & are better this season than we will be next season, have little relevance.
Why is it when discussing EtH people love to talk about other teams & managers instead of addressing the man himself. Liverpool under Klopp are an outlier, they are not the norm.
‘the best manager in the world can have an unexplained off season’, you’ve pretty much answered why it’s irrelevant. One is the best manager in the world, the other is EtH.
Further example of expectations being in the basement & EtH currently failing to achieve them.
And there goes discussing in good faith. I have a post yesterday in this very thread stating he shouldn’t be judged on something he should never have been asked to do & nowhere will you find me saying £400mil is an indictment on EtH alone. [4th paragraph].
That’s the trouble with apologists, they read any discussion as criticism even when you’re saying the opposite.
So yes, not worth debating at all really as you’ve made it up.
As I’ve said to other posters. I’m here to discuss EtH, not go back & forth over Manager X or Manager Y.
I come to the EtH thread to discuss EtH not be pulled further away from his performance.
I’m not saying other managers don’t come without risks. I’m saying you don’t keep an underperformers because another manager might underperform. There’s no certainty in the role. Look at EtH, we thought he’d have us playing like Ajax & here we are with him saying we can’t whilst playing some of the worst football in the country.
Well I said a full squad rebuild takes more than two summers since ten hag joined. From there a poster insinuated we will see no progress for 3-4 years from now.
Il let you guess the difference.
I read a post of yours agreeing with eth can’t properly be assessed untill 27/28 season. Like I said I don’t know if it was a joke or my sarcasm radar is off
Sarcasm
Don't necessarily think onana was an odd choice but his passing ability appears overhyped, and hasn't exactly moved our style of football along so perhaps he wasn't the best use of funds.
Malacia isn't very good on the ball so if shaws ball playing ability was essential for us to play half decent football maybe we should have found a better alternative
Maybe we should have, but for 15m he was good value for money and did well enough in Shaws absence last year and I thought he was at least an upgrade on Telles. One of Martinez and Shaw injured for a prolonged period of time we can cope with, but both with no able replacements is obviously a big issue and would be for any team.
Again, concentrated injuries in the back line. Not injuries in absolute terms (which is still among the worst). Injuries concentrated in one area hurt a lot more - for example I'd rather have 4 injuries spread across attack, midfield and defence than 4 injuries in the entire defence line that plagues the way we can build out from the back. I thought this should be obvious, but here we are.
Tailor his approach how? Sit deeper and counter? Not exactly doable with youth projects leading the line and another forward having a cold season (and having form for it in his career). There is absolutely nothing to suggest a sit back and counter approach would have yielded better points.
Expectations for this team is to finish around 4th, given the 3 above them on paper are far ahead in the process and look the finished article. If we finish 5th that's hardly sackable.
Points per game this season versus points per game last season. Why are we messing about with calendar years? Do it if you want, look at our points per game in 2024 versus 2023. I really don't care, you'll find the points per game trending up if you look at Jan - March 2024.
Yes, and as previously explained last years was quite unsustainable, he pretty much overperformed - not expected to really hit 75 points in year 1. We both agreed it's not linear and if his points per game this season is not drastically worse than the season prior, and if he doesn't drastically underperform in his league finish, what exactly is the issue? What is so sackable about it?
No you haven't. You said other teams have injuries and hey bro check this link out, looking at absolute number of injuries without bothering to actually analyse beyond that.
Assess facts not the dream scenario? What on earth are you on about? Fact is that our squad is just behind Arsenal City Liverpool. Fact is we can finish 5th with our run in. Fact is that we have had worse injuries than the teams around us. Fact is whilst 5th isn't as good as 4th, it's also not as terrible as you're trying to claim.
No, you didn't.
Stop generalizing and stick to the topic. I'm citing an example where an outlier of a manager can also have off seasons himself. I am then asking why Ten Hag cannot be given the same space to do so, being dealt with worse hands in that season injury wise, and you're still struggling to give an actual answer.
It is now very clear you didn't actually understand the point being made.
You threw debating in good faith by calling me an apologist twice. Do you really think I'd have a full memory of every post you made? You came into a debate with me here and rested on £400m spent as an insinuation of blame on Eric Ten Hag, and I took that post at face value. If you don't think he should be judged on the sums spent, do not cite that as part of your basis for critiquing him. In other words, be consistent in the posts you make.
Well you're not, you're talking about underperforming standards and having the same view since Moyes' reign insinuating thats what the basis of sacking should be. When in reality sacking managers has a lot more context than just "are they getting top 4" or any other minimum result expectation. There are structural considerations, season specific considerations, options in the market considerations and so on. Looks like you haven't really looked beyond the "is he getting results" argument, even though you can see his results are actually trending generally upwards of late.
Then discuss his performace. In all competitions he has churned out 8 wins and 1 draw from 11 games. Do you think that is an upward trend compared to how say, the last 10 games in 2023 went?
Do you think he is capable of getting good form in the run in with the final 10 games of the season from here? Do you think that if he was able to maintain an upward trend for 2024 that it may make you rethink he's only going in one direction? Genuine questions to hear your thoughts.
And I'm saying it's very difficult to gauge to what extent Ten Hag is specifically underperforming in these results. No team has been obligated to play 27 or so different back four combinations in 30+ games this season. Yes he's made mistakes, yes he's too open for some games (every game of the CL in fact). However he's also got results in other periods and has a broadly shite squad to lean on, with the subs being reverse profiles of the starters, and that doesnt help his cause. I think he's made doubts fill into peoples minds, which is fair, but I don't think he should be sacked for some mistakes. A lot of our bad form is down to the injury situation we've had and the fact that we haven't been able to get the profile of players we want to lead the line.
I find it weird that expectations are 4th, and 5th and 6th are acceptable when we’ve been sacking managers who have been finishing 2nd because they couldn’t make the next step agains this Liverpool and Man City team. It’s like standards keep dropping and dropping and more accepted and excused year on year. What was the point of sacking a manager who finished 2nd and 3rd if our next manager is only expected to get 4th?
Those managers were sacked when the squad gave up, when players stopped running and when there was absolutely no sign of them bouncing back. It was entire seasons after their peak finishes you spoke of.
Then maybe we should have changed the players who gave up and stopped running and supported the manager more
Those managers were rightfully sacked when things went to absolute shite.
Maybe, but sadly this is the way of how the managerial sackings go in football, not just with us. If this happened under Ten Hag he'd get sacked all the same.
I’m not arguing against that but this manager has bombed out of champions league, football is awful for a year, almost recorded losses in a season, goal difference is pathetic, but how it hasn’t got to complete shite yet is impressive, I’ll give him that
My point was that it was nothing to do with not being able to "take the next step" - they were sacked because they both absolutely imploded. ETH should have been sacked too.
Maybe I just feel miserable after looking at the league table this morning and having our league position along with the losses and goal difference there in black and white along with watching dour performances for so long.
hopefully he turns it around and we start playing something we can all enjoy, forever hope.
Fair enough yeah.
And I’m not excusing mourinho or ole here but mourinho imploded after not being supported in the transfer market to take that next step from second. I’m not saying it would have anyway.
And ole imploded after he said himself trying to take the next step and being more direct and they just wernt good enough. Again I’m not making excuses for them.
They were both rightfully sacked due to where we were and performances. Very similar to now.
Let's be honest though; with both Jose and Ole, more predicted we would implode following their second place finishes, than build upon them.
Get smashed by them again today and it's curtains. It has to be, especially with the international break giving them time to get some things in order.
I imagine there's very little chance of sacking him now. It'll be the end of the season at the earliest.
It's the ten Hag life for us
It's the ten Hag life for us
steada playing
we get dicked
steada fighting
we get kicked
It's the ten Hag life
Got no away wins to speak of
Goal difference in the minus
Opposition score and we throw the towel in
Don't it seem there's never any light
It's easier than puttin' up a fight
It's the ten Hag life
Was it? I remember Ole doing a pretty good job up until the end of 20/21 and finishing 2nd. He was then hamstrung at the start of 21/22 by Rashford being out injured and trying to implement a new style with Ronaldo. Despite that, he was still (probably correctly) sacked before the calendar year had ended. Even Mourinho finished 2nd in 17/18 and was then sacked by December (again correctly).
ETH has produced a season which has been a disaster from start to finish. We are 6th and that position is, somehow, exceptionally flattering based on our actual performances. We also finished last season relatively poorly. Now, hopefully, he will turn it around and we will finish the season strongly but the idea that Ole and Jose were given this type of time to sort out their disaster seasons is just wrong.
The players literally stopped running for Ole with hands on hips football toward the end. He got spanked left right and center and failed to show any bounce back in form. Ten hag meanwhile has stabilised form at various low points despite having big injuries. And I guess not being spanked by relegation teams has helped too.
Why? There would be 0 benefit. Might as well do it at the end of the season with a full plan in place. A caretaker is not going to be any more likely to get us anything meaningful this season.
United undermined Jose and the squad. The Fred/Dalot signings were like signing Fellaini for Moyes, might aswell or raised the white flag and tell the squads they don’t need to be worry about winning things , just get into top 4.
The Ronaldo signing undermined Ole. For all the “ole wanted him” nonsense , I’d of thought at this stage people would understand a manager seldom, if ever , publicly states they didn’t want a player. There’s numerous reasons why this would be the case, not least how insulting it is to players. But there is also “dont sh*t on the owners” strategy , a manager attacking owners would be one other clubs would be reluctant to hire. Jose’s record protected him, ole didn’t have that luxury.
Regardless , Ronaldo was a United last 11 years signing 100%. Player wants to leave his club. Check. Player doesn’t necessarily fit into any plans at the club. Check. Player has potential to cause unrest or dram. Check. Player ultimately leads to a manager sacking (as form of team impacted) and the player seems like a big expensive problem. Check
I mean , how many managers have to work in these sh*tty conditions before you guys see the pattern?
If United was well run, I think we’d rarely be out top 4 and even “failed” managers would be ones who couldn’t get to QF of CL. This obsession with basically sacking managers until we find the right one, for me, is just not good enough. That’s lowering the bar and relying on finding somebody who can navigate a sh*tshow while being a top manager:
Given the fact Klopp and Pep seem to work with competent people in a competent football structure, it’s not really clear how theyd find life at Fawlty Old Trafford towers.
To bring things up to ETH, I feel the exact same. He’s had to work with amateurs in an amateur setup. I’d like to see what he could do in a proper club. I’d get if he doesn’t get the chance, as I do believe there is reasonable concerns as to whether he’s good enough, but we haven’t had the chance to see it yet.
INEOs are saying it’s gonna take 2-3 years to turn the ship around. That’s nothing to do with managers at this stage , it’s to do with putting in place a football infrastructure that helps any manager we have , not undermine them like it’s been doing. Whether they feel ETH is a good fit for what will be a building year is not just based on XG or our finishing position. Maybe he will be the right man for us now but not at a certain point.
I understand your point, it is one we see on here repeatedly, and yes it could be with the perfect squad and set up ETH could be successful, but his failings this season have not been limited to those which a better environment would help, the poor structure at the club has not forced him it to playing a system which does not suit the players at his disposal, and has left us exposed defensively.
I would prefer a manager who can adapt in adversity, who can maximise potential, who is tactically agile.
The way your argument portrays ETH is a manager with a narrow set of skills who can only thrive in optimal conditions.
I also understand that constantly changing managers is not a fix, and can have an ongoing deleterious affect, however this has to be balanced against keeping a manager who is not suitable just for the sake of not sacking another manager... to put it another way, constantly sack managers is something to avoid, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't sack ETH if that is the primary reason for keeping him, there is less point to flogging a dead horse
Again, im not focusing on ETH, I’m focusing on United managerial position. I’ve not said he should not be replaced , I said we are in a period of transition that we haven’t seen during the incompetent glazer years.
INEOs are going to change how things have been done. I don’t expect this summer to be a bumper one with headline signings that are gonna have us challange for the league or CL regardless of manager.
I just feel focusing so much on the manager, with where we are right now, is relatively pointless. I feel alot of you are setting the next manager up to fail acting like we are Man City or Liverpool level squads just replacing a manager. We are a broken club with people trying to fix it, a manager who can help it be cultivated back to a top club is more important then an instant success manager who can make things work quickly in a shorter period of time
Unless we're heading into administration or some horrific tragedy has befell the team, I don't understand how it's ever pointless to assess the job the manager is doing.
It's irrelevant what is going on at board level. It has no direct impact on his job managing the first team. He still coaches them every day, he still chooses the tactics, he still chooses the subs, he still holds meetings with players, it's still his job to motivate them. Our performances and results on a match day are solely his responsibility.
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You were downplaying the impact of injuries with your sarcasm in your last paragraph. My point is injuries to key players can throw up big issues.
We’ve had big injuries all season to our entire back line.
As for the top 5, we’ve still got every chance of achieving it.
Your posting style here comes across really condescending. “Thanks for that gem” and “the ignorance of your post…”
I’ve posted an awful lot on this subject so I’ll “forgive your ignorance” and just briefly say you’re wrong about my opinion and if you do care about it then feel free to look at the threads I’ve made recently and by all means come back with any points you wish to discuss.
What support will Ashworth give Ten Hag throughout the season, that will fix our issues on the pitch?
Apparently Ashworth didn't set the style of play at Brighton and didn't pick managers etc. He also had, what is apparently the best data analytics given to him by the owner. And apparently it was their owner and his guys who chose style of play, managers etc based on their data.
There’s lots to unravel here so I’m going to have to ignore things I’ve explained to you elsewhere, otherwise we’ll be here all day.
We’ve conceded 39 goals this year in the league which is less than both Villa & Spurs. The problems are actually where we’ve been fitter. . .
It’s hard to not identify an apologist when a poster is making blind excuses.
Here we go again, writing war & peace about something people aren’t saying.
Last Season PPG - 1.97
This Season PPG - 1.68
That’s 10% in a game of fine margins.
I can’t really elaborate further if you can’t distinguish between discussing what has actually happened this season as opposed to ‘woulda, coulda, shoulda’.
What I do expect is when discussing, in good faith of course, that posters won’t make up things to argue against. There was no insinuation. I’ve literally argued opposite.
What the hell has Moyes got to do with EtH?
Who has said saving managers is simply about Top4?
You keep doing this. Quote me & discuss what is quoted.
So as you’ve addressed the last 11 games how about addressing the season because last time I checked the January to March 2024 trophy wasn’t a thing any manager has ever been judged on.
I’ve already conceded the defence has been compromised , you seem incapable of accepting anything else into the equation so I’m at a loss as to where we go now cause you’ll come back with more about ‘our defence has had more injuries’ which in turn means we’ve had a healthier midfield/attack, no? Then you’ll harp on about the last 11 games.
I was up for a decent conversation but we’re getting bogged down.
If our injuries are mainly in the back line why can the midfield not keep the ball & why is the attack so impotent?
We’ve conceded 39 goals this year in the league which is less than both Villa & Spurs. The problems are actually where we’ve been fitter. . .
It’s hard to not identify an apologist when a poster is making blind excuses.
Who’s saying sit back & counter?
Here we go again, writing war & peace about something people aren’t saying.
Another paragraph about something irrelevant.
So those 2 things don’t correlate.
Points per game are ‘drastically’ worse. In a game where the margin is 0 to 3, .3 is 10%.
Last Season PPG - 1.97
This Season PPG - 1.68
That’s 10% in a game of fine margins.
You throw around terms like Points per game with no context then you talk about injuries again with no context other than ‘more defensive ones’ & when you get challenged on the detail you say this. Good faith indeed.
On more than one occasion you’ve talked about where we ‘would’ be or ‘should’ be had it not been for injuries.
I can’t really elaborate further if you can’t distinguish between discussing what has actually happened this season as opposed to ‘woulda, coulda, shoulda’.
Google generalisation & come back to me.
Considering I’ve had to ask you to clarify multiple points & you’ve turned this discussion into anything but an appraisal of EtH on his merits then yes, your points aren’t landing.
I don’t expect you to have a full memory as judging by your post your memory of EtH only incorporates Jan 2024 to March 2024.
What I do expect is when discussing, in good faith of course, that posters won’t make up things to argue against. There was no insinuation. I’ve literally argued opposite.
Stop telling me what I am insinuating & discuss what I am writing.
What the hell has Moyes got to do with EtH?
Who has said saving managers is simply about Top4?
You keep doing this. Quote me & discuss what is quoted.
I’ve tried multiple times to discuss his performance & you keep bring it back 11 games.
So as you’ve addressed the last 11 games how about addressing the season because last time I checked the January to March 2024 trophy wasn’t a thing any manager has ever been judged on.
Google obligation & then go through multiple occasions where Varane was left out through choice.
I’ve already conceded the defence has been compromised , you seem incapable of accepting anything else into the equation so I’m at a loss as to where we go now cause you’ll come back with more about ‘our defence has had more injuries’ which in turn means we’ve had a healthier midfield/attack, no? Then you’ll harp on about the last 11 games.
I was up for a decent conversation but we’re getting bogged down.
FFS, you are like a broken record
On multiple occasions in the past day I have acknowledged our injury issues. I have tried to elaborate & being context to them. Getting into a debate about your perceived downplaying of injuries will result in a back & forth that I will have covered elsewhere in the past day.
As for the condescending tone of my posts. It’s funny, yet not surprising, [condescending tone] that another poster who is dominating the thread but shares your views doesn’t draw such comment from you in your role as Scout.
I have never once said injuries to key players are not an issue. In fact I’ve gone as far as to look at team sheets for our opposition in our losses such as Crystal Palace & Fulham to see that on those days they have had their own issues.
Talking about our injuries in a silo is a problem but of course let’s talk about condescending tones of posts or downplaying of impacts instead of the manager.
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I will have a look back into your posts to understand your view. I was responding to a single comment id seen.
My role as a scout is to look for newbies who deserve likes. It’s not to moderate the forum. It’s also not my role to tolerate condescension when it’s directed at me. If you feel others have done the same to you then I suggest calling them out for it or reporting.
The manager in the context is doing ok. There is a lot not to like but also a lot to like. It just depends where you fall on that spectrum.
Needs a statement game today in front of the crowd. Fight them for it tooth and nail, at the very least.
Hel have the right people around ten hag to help in transfers. Remember ten hag has never asked for sole control, and needs better support from the scouts than what he's given.
Fair play.
All I’d counter with is, in the past day I’ve had a lot of ‘what you mean to say is. . .’ & ‘what you are saying is. . .’ instead of actually going at what is written.
I do not solely believe that injuries are to blame for this seasons performance however they clearly have impacted how we play.
For what it’s worth, I’ve had the same thing. I’d put it down to being an opposition fan, but now I think it’s more to do with the subject matter than the team I support.
best first 20 minutes in a long while
There is no way any United fan could want him to continue.
There is absolutely no sign of any coaching or tactics at all just relying on individuals doing something special
There is absolutely no sign of any coaching or tactics at all just relying on individuals doing something special
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