Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[VP89]

Before Klopp took over, Liverpool were not very good. In the five years before his arrival, their average league position was 6th. Their average points tally was 63, average goals scored was 66, conceded was 45, GD was +21.

Klopp took over Liverpool in October, and in that first season, league results were in line with the previous five seasons: 60 points, 63 goals scored, 50 goals conceded, +13 GD (you'll have to ignore the fact that these are full season numbers; I'm not calculating this shit). In his second season, results were clearly better than in the previous years: 76 points, 78 goals scored, 42 goals conceded, +36 GD. You can see a substantial improvement in Liverpool's fortunes even though the actual results are, objectively, "nothing special" (because 8th and 4th isn't anything special with or without context).

The problem is what happens if we do this comparison with United. In the five years before Ten Hag took over, United had an average league finish of 4th, average point tally of 69, 66 goals scored and 44 conceded, GD of +22. Last season United finished 3rd, with 75 points, scoring 58 goals and conceding 43. These numbers are fairly close to the average, with the point tally being better (by 6) but the attack being worse (by 8). The current season is worse under pretty much every metric and brings Ten Hag's performance to basically in line with the pre-Ten Hag era.

That's the major difference between the two.

Very fair comments but I think Klopp certainly had better quality attackers at his disposal than Ten Hag.

 

[erikcred]

It is unprecedented the amount of teams that have played us this season and have matter of factly stated how they went about dismantling us, and it is said with such clarity that there is no doubt whatsoever we've been turned over by superior tactics, planning and execution, often with players far, far inferior and less regarded than our own.

Post-game it should always be a strong topic of conversation; the word embarrassing has been misused on the Internet for as long as I can remember, but when supposed inferior coaches and players are able to state with such certitude how they have found themselves winning against you, it's a disgrace and an embarrassment.

Ole got absolutely pilloried for the final run that led to his sacking, with the likes of Troy Deeney declaring, in this same great detail, how and why they beat us, yet we're seeing it so often now, it barely warrants discussion amongst the fanbase.

It's one thing to lose games once in a while, it's a wholly different thing when teams play against you with conviction and certainty of purpose because they feel they have you sussed and have a collective, tactical goal to hammer home. Lesser teams than yourself should never have such overwhelming collective confidence in making you crack, or in outright out-strategising you. Sure, they may win on the crest of a wave and in-game flow, but their first priority should be staying in the game and the second, avoiding a demoralising tonking. Look at how teams approach those in the top 4 and even the collective shock they have when they get anything out of those games and contrast it to us. Manchester United are viewed as a team they can play and have genuine hope against, and with how often our dire midfield set up is strolled through compared to other sides, you can see where that well of belief and conviction or sense of purpose teams have when they play us comes from.

I don't even wish to cite the halcyon days of Fergie, where teams absolutely feared a pasting from us, rather, you can look to even LVG, Mourinho and even Ole (before the wheels came off) and see that standards and expectations are rock bottom now.

Under LVG, for as boring and staid as the football could have been called, teams getting the ball of us or having any concerted period of time with it was utterly exasperating and demoralising for them. He might have bored our fans to death, but he also absolutely crushed the spirit of the opposition, particularly fodder.

Mourinho and his rubbish, bruiser boy football made games about attrition and hardship, putting opposing teams through the grinder (oo err); it took genuine quality and superiority to beat us then.

Ole's teams were basic but without a smirk, one of the best counter-attacking teams in Europe, let alone the league. You could know exactly what we set out to do in Ole's first two seasons and still not be able to stop it. We carried a clear and apparent threat and there was little to be done to stop it.

Fast forward to now? We aren't good at anything. The vaunted pressing data that stops only at the initial press but omits the fallout and yawning chasms in midfield it causes counts for nothing - if your biggest so-called strength is an inlet to your biggest weaknesses, it is categorically not a strength. We cannot defend set pieces; we are dire at attacking set pieces; we do not control games and we do not have an overabundance of supplying the frontline, further, we rely on individual brilliance at a higher rate than Ole did, something Ole was absolutely dragged through the coals for.

Not one of the managers post-Fergie has been good enough or complete, but this is par with Moyes for zero discernible strengths and an abundance of weaknesses.

Ten Hag was quite infamous for vastly overplaying his first xi at Ajax, so much so it was the biggest warning Ajax supporters gave us. What seems to have happened here is that in the absence of a strongest xi, the manager is lost at sea - if everything is not functioning to the wire with optimum efficiency, he doesn't know what to do and cannot use viable workarounds, which sees us doggedly sticking to 'the plan' because without it, at it's optimal best, there's nothing. It's such a letdown.

The conceptualisation of the "modern manager" is someone who is eclectic with contingencies for most things and a clever counter plan prepared in advance should the initial one be breached - you certainly should not hear of opposing players and managers stating how easy it was to do their thing against them. The biggest surprise and letdown of ten Hag's tenure for me is that he has been the antithesis of modernisation, entrenched and unadaptible as he is. By now, there is only Moyes who it might be argue has been more outcoached than ten Hag. Never in my life did I think I'd ever say that about an appointment I was so eager for.

It's like Black Mirror episode by now. You don't need to look beyond the pitch to see this is not and will not be the guy.

Nail. Hit. Head.

 

[Gawge]

I always think to the first 3 seasons of Sir Alex with fans holding up fergie out banners especially the famous “3 years of excuses and we’re still crap, tara fergie” banner.

I’m not for one second saying ETH is Ferguson, not many are BUT we would never of known how good a manager he was if we’d of judged him on his first few seasons, infact the total opposite.

I just don't think the comparison is relevant in modern football.

Managers just don't stay in jobs for that long any more. Giving someone 'a few seasons' to find their feet isn't really an option, as they won't be staying for 20 years.

Klopp and Pep are some of the longest serving managers around, one ending his tenure, the other probably towards the end of it. That's 8 years, from two managers who everyone knew were outstanding choices on appointment, not people who needed to be given a chance.

I just don't see any prospect of ETH turning a corner and leading a dynasty for 10 years. He has had a hard job for reasons out of his control, but I don't think it justifies sticking with him.

 

[Desert Eagle]

It is unprecedented the amount of teams that have played us this season and have matter of factly stated how they went about dismantling us, and it is said with such clarity that there is no doubt whatsoever we've been turned over by superior tactics, planning and execution, often with players far, far inferior and less regarded than our own.

Post-game it should always be a strong topic of conversation; the word embarrassing has been misused on the Internet for as long as I can remember, but when supposed inferior coaches and players are able to state with such certitude how they have found themselves winning against you, it's a disgrace and an embarrassment.

Ole got absolutely pilloried for the final run that led to his sacking, with the likes of Troy Deeney declaring, in this same great detail, how and why they beat us, yet we're seeing it so often now, it barely warrants discussion amongst the fanbase.

It's one thing to lose games once in a while, it's a wholly different thing when teams play against you with conviction and certainty of purpose because they feel they have you sussed and have a collective, tactical goal to hammer home. Lesser teams than yourself should never have such overwhelming collective confidence in making you crack, or in outright out-strategising you. Sure, they may win on the crest of a wave and in-game flow, but their first priority should be staying in the game and the second, avoiding a demoralising tonking. Look at how teams approach those in the top 4 and even the collective shock they have when they get anything out of those games and contrast it to us. Manchester United are viewed as a team they can play and have genuine hope against, and with how often our dire midfield set up is strolled through compared to other sides, you can see where that well of belief and conviction or sense of purpose teams have when they play us comes from.

I don't even wish to cite the halcyon days of Fergie, where teams absolutely feared a pasting from us, rather, you can look to even LVG, Mourinho and even Ole (before the wheels came off) and see that standards and expectations are rock bottom now.

Under LVG, for as boring and staid as the football could have been called, teams getting the ball of us or having any concerted period of time with it was utterly exasperating and demoralising for them. He might have bored our fans to death, but he also absolutely crushed the spirit of the opposition, particularly fodder.

Mourinho and his rubbish, bruiser boy football made games about attrition and hardship, putting opposing teams through the grinder (oo err); it took genuine quality and superiority to beat us then.

Ole's teams were basic but without a smirk, one of the best counter-attacking teams in Europe, let alone the league. You could know exactly what we set out to do in Ole's first two seasons and still not be able to stop it. We carried a clear and apparent threat and there was little to be done to stop it.

Fast forward to now? We aren't good at anything. The vaunted pressing data that stops only at the initial press but omits the fallout and yawning chasms in midfield it causes counts for nothing - if your biggest so-called strength is an inlet to your biggest weaknesses, it is categorically not a strength. We cannot defend set pieces; we are dire at attacking set pieces; we do not control games and we do not have an overabundance of supplying the frontline, further, we rely on individual brilliance at a higher rate than Ole did, something Ole was absolutely dragged through the coals for.

Not one of the managers post-Fergie has been good enough or complete, but this is par with Moyes for zero discernible strengths and an abundance of weaknesses.

Ten Hag was quite infamous for vastly overplaying his first xi at Ajax, so much so it was the biggest warning Ajax supporters gave us. What seems to have happened here is that in the absence of a strongest xi, the manager is lost at sea - if everything is not functioning to the wire with optimum efficiency, he doesn't know what to do and cannot use viable workarounds, which sees us doggedly sticking to 'the plan' because without it, at it's optimal best, there's nothing. It's such a letdown.

The conceptualisation of the "modern manager" is someone who is eclectic with contingencies for most things and a clever counter plan prepared in advance should the initial one be breached - you certainly should not hear of opposing players and managers stating how easy it was to do their thing against them. The biggest surprise and letdown of ten Hag's tenure for me is that he has been the antithesis of modernisation, entrenched and unadaptible as he is. By now, there is only Moyes who it might be argue has been more outcoached than ten Hag. Never in my life did I think I'd ever say that about an appointment I was so eager for.

It's like Black Mirror episode by now. You don't need to look beyond the pitch to see this is not and will not be the guy.

Great post. He has doubled down on what hasn't been working. He thinks we are on the right track when it's clear as day his abomination of a midfield with the fraud captain at the heart of it is an absolute disaster. I think he did well last season considering the circumstances but everything since the league cup has pretty much been regression. Let him stay till we have a good replacement lined up but he should not start next season as manager if we want to have any hope.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Please name any managers who have managed to do that. I know Pep has and I know Erik Ten Hag has too. But please name these numerous managers who have bettered this stat?

In your post you gave Ten Hag 1.95 points per game, which is not "real" (as you're including games that don't give you points). His ppg in the league (where this is most meaningful), according to Transfermarkt, is 1.86.

Who has bested that? Tuchel had 1.94 ppg in his PL tenure (which lasted less than Ten Hag's). Pochettino had 2.05 ppg in his first two seasons at Spurs; he didn't win anything then or after and then got sacked. Conte had 1.87 at Spurs and he got sacked. Ole had a similar ppg (1.85) in his first 3 seasons at United, and it only drops to 1.81 when you account for his final season when he got sacked. I'm getting some of these from transfermarkt, some might be off a bit. The broader issue isn't the numbers, it's the substance. We know Klopp had a poor first season and didn't get fired, so if we compare him to anyone who didn't have bad first (or second) seasons they'll probably be better.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Before Klopp took over, Liverpool were not very good. In the five years before his arrival, their average league position was 6th. Their average points tally was 63, average goals scored was 66, conceded was 45, GD was +21.

Klopp took over Liverpool in October, and in that first season, league results were in line with the previous five seasons: 60 points, 63 goals scored, 50 goals conceded, +13 GD (you'll have to ignore the fact that these are full season numbers; I'm not calculating this shit). In his second season, results were clearly better than in the previous years: 76 points, 78 goals scored, 42 goals conceded, +36 GD. You can see a substantial improvement in Liverpool's fortunes even though the actual results are, objectively, "nothing special" (because 8th and 4th isn't anything special with or without context).

The problem is what happens if we do this comparison with United. In the five years before Ten Hag took over, United had an average league finish of 4th, average point tally of 69, 66 goals scored and 44 conceded, GD of +22. Last season United finished 3rd, with 75 points, scoring 58 goals and conceding 43. These numbers are fairly close to the average, with the point tally being better (by 6) but the attack being worse (by 8). The current season is worse under pretty much every metric and brings Ten Hag's performance to basically in line with the pre-Ten Hag era.

That's the major difference between the two.

Good post.

 

[Giant Midget]

Defeating us is so simple - play 3 players who tuck into the number 10 position where we have huge vacuum, get past the initial weak press and you'll have chances galore.

How many times a game do we suddenly see the whole opposition attack behind our midfield line? It's become normalized because it happens so much, but it probably happens to City once every two games, whereas it happens 8-10 times in a single game against us.

 

[Baxter]

https://x.com/TenHagBall_/status/1762033112328913264?s=20

Same every game, the amount of shots conceded is horrendous.

 

[Plant0x84]

That season under Moyes was a disaster, but I still think we pulled the plug too soon. He should have been given time to build.
Erik has been nothing like as bad in his time here but you’re all baying for blood. I’m certain now that this fan base enjoys the misery.

 

[crossy1686]

That season under Moyes was a disaster, but I still think we pulled the plug too soon. He should have been given time to build.
Erik has been nothing like as bad in his time here but you’re all baying for blood. I’m certain now that this fan base enjoys the misery.

Watching us and people thinking “this needs more time” is what’s making us miserable. If you don’t pull the plug when something is a ‘disaster’ then when do you?

The ships sinking lads. Just give it more time though, when we’re sat on the bottom of the ocean we’ll reevaluate if the captain should be fired or not.

 

[parmenio]

Wow this thread takes some reading at times. Its pretty obvious that there are folks on here who no matter what ETH does / team performance etc they will back him to the hilt. I guess we all have opinions. I'm firmly of the view he tactically inept and is totally unsuited to managing a club of the stature of Manchester United. I guess come the summer we will know how the Ineos camp view him. Then again i want to see a Manchester United team play good football that is exciting to watch. For some on here thats too much to ask for as well. Interesting times ahead for sure.

 

[Sarni]

Very fair comments but I think Klopp certainly had better quality attackers at his disposal than Ten Hag.

Certainly he did not. These are the offensive players he inherited:

Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana, Origi, Sturridge, Benteke, Ings

Aside from Coutinho and Firmino, who are basically matched by Bruno and Hojlund, the rest are absolute dross. Sturridge was already a crock, Benteke was garbage for them, Origi a youngster, Lallana and Ings mid table quality.

None of them are close to Garnacho and Rashford. They added Mane the next year but ETH was allowed to spend £85m on a new star winger immediately as well.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

I'm just fed up of us being played off the park by basically every team we play. It's shocking.

Unacceptable isn’t it. Even Newport.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Unacceptable isn’t it. Even Newport.

Absolutely. It's a terrible slog watching us this season.

 

[Sarni]

That season under Moyes was a disaster, but I still think we pulled the plug too soon. He should have been given time to build.
Erik has been nothing like as bad in his time here but you’re all baying for blood. I’m certain now that this fan base enjoys the misery.

If anything we were too late to fire Moyes. It is batshit mental to think giving David Moyes more time was ever the solution.

 

[VP89]

Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana, Origi, Sturridge, Benteke, Ings

Aside from Coutinho and Firmino, who are basically matched by Bruno and Hojlund, the rest are absolute dross.

You refer to his first full season. He had lot more quality players in his second full season, both in attack and defence.

 

[Sarni]

You refer to his first full season. He had lot more quality players in his second full season, both in attack and defence.

He brought Mane in his first Summer window and Salah after that. They were already a much more coherent offensive side before though, well basically they were good almost instantly and progressed from there.

They did not lose to a single top 4 side in his second season, in fact Bournemouth were the only top half team that beat them in 16-17. They were undone by poor results against lesser teams but that is far easier to fix than consistently being outplayed by all half decent (and even weak) teams.

Klopp never really struggled at Liverpool. He started quite well and got progressively better.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

It is unprecedented the amount of teams that have played us this season and have matter of factly stated how they went about dismantling us, and it is said with such clarity that there is no doubt whatsoever we've been turned over by superior tactics, planning and execution, often with players far, far inferior and less regarded than our own.

Post-game it should always be a strong topic of conversation; the word embarrassing has been misused on the Internet for as long as I can remember, but when supposed inferior coaches and players are able to state with such certitude how they have found themselves winning against you, it's a disgrace and an embarrassment.

Ole got absolutely pilloried for the final run that led to his sacking, with the likes of Troy Deeney declaring, in this same great detail, how and why they beat us, yet we're seeing it so often now, it barely warrants discussion amongst the fanbase.

It's one thing to lose games once in a while, it's a wholly different thing when teams play against you with conviction and certainty of purpose because they feel they have you sussed and have a collective, tactical goal to hammer home. Lesser teams than yourself should never have such overwhelming collective confidence in making you crack, or in outright out-strategising you. Sure, they may win on the crest of a wave and in-game flow, but their first priority should be staying in the game and the second, avoiding a demoralising tonking. Look at how teams approach those in the top 4 and even the collective shock they have when they get anything out of those games and contrast it to us. Manchester United are viewed as a team they can play and have genuine hope against, and with how often our dire midfield set up is strolled through compared to other sides, you can see where that well of belief and conviction or sense of purpose teams have when they play us comes from.

I don't even wish to cite the halcyon days of Fergie, where teams absolutely feared a pasting from us, rather, you can look to even LVG, Mourinho and even Ole (before the wheels came off) and see that standards and expectations are rock bottom now.

Under LVG, for as boring and staid as the football could have been called, teams getting the ball of us or having any concerted period of time with it was utterly exasperating and demoralising for them. He might have bored our fans to death, but he also absolutely crushed the spirit of the opposition, particularly fodder.

Mourinho and his rubbish, bruiser boy football made games about attrition and hardship, putting opposing teams through the grinder (oo err); it took genuine quality and superiority to beat us then.

Ole's teams were basic but without a smirk, one of the best counter-attacking teams in Europe, let alone the league. You could know exactly what we set out to do in Ole's first two seasons and still not be able to stop it. We carried a clear and apparent threat and there was little to be done to stop it.

Fast forward to now? We aren't good at anything. The vaunted pressing data that stops only at the initial press but omits the fallout and yawning chasms in midfield it causes counts for nothing - if your biggest so-called strength is an inlet to your biggest weaknesses, it is categorically not a strength. We cannot defend set pieces; we are dire at attacking set pieces; we do not control games and we do not have an overabundance of supplying the frontline, further, we rely on individual brilliance at a higher rate than Ole did, something Ole was absolutely dragged through the coals for.

Not one of the managers post-Fergie has been good enough or complete, but this is par with Moyes for zero discernible strengths and an abundance of weaknesses.

Ten Hag was quite infamous for vastly overplaying his first xi at Ajax, so much so it was the biggest warning Ajax supporters gave us. What seems to have happened here is that in the absence of a strongest xi, the manager is lost at sea - if everything is not functioning to the wire with optimum efficiency, he doesn't know what to do and cannot use viable workarounds, which sees us doggedly sticking to 'the plan' because without it, at it's optimal best, there's nothing. It's such a letdown.

The conceptualisation of the "modern manager" is someone who is eclectic with contingencies for most things and a clever counter plan prepared in advance should the initial one be breached - you certainly should not hear of opposing players and managers stating how easy it was to do their thing against them. The biggest surprise and letdown of ten Hag's tenure for me is that he has been the antithesis of modernisation, entrenched and unadaptible as he is. By now, there is only Moyes who it might be argue has been more outcoached than ten Hag. Never in my life did I think I'd ever say that about an appointment I was so eager for.

It's like Black Mirror episode by now. You don't need to look beyond the pitch to see this is not and will not be the guy.

Incredible post. @VP89 how can you not get it!

 

[VP89]

Incredible post. @VP89 how can you not get it!

Im not getting reeled into another Ole comparison debate again. I purposely didn't want to reply to it, whilst respecting his views.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Before Klopp took over, Liverpool were not very good. In the five years before his arrival, their average league position was 6th. Their average points tally was 63, average goals scored was 66, conceded was 45, GD was +21.

Klopp took over Liverpool in October, and in that first season, league results were in line with the previous five seasons: 60 points, 63 goals scored, 50 goals conceded, +13 GD (you'll have to ignore the fact that these are full season numbers; I'm not calculating this shit). In his second season, results were clearly better than in the previous years: 76 points, 78 goals scored, 42 goals conceded, +36 GD. You can see a substantial improvement in Liverpool's fortunes even though the actual results are, objectively, "nothing special" (because 8th and 4th isn't anything special with or without context).

The problem is what happens if we do this comparison with United. In the five years before Ten Hag took over, United had an average league finish of 4th, average point tally of 69, 66 goals scored and 44 conceded, GD of +22. Last season United finished 3rd, with 75 points, scoring 58 goals and conceding 43. These numbers are fairly close to the average, with the point tally being better (by 6) but the attack being worse (by 8). The current season is worse under pretty much every metric and brings Ten Hag's performance to basically in line with the pre-Ten Hag era.

That's the major difference between the two.

Good post and I appreciate the time taken to make it.

I agree Klopp did an amazing job. And within his context he was backed and supported and didn’t have to implement his style of play with the level of injuries we’ve had.

What I’m arguing here is not that Ten Hag is necessarily better than either of those managers (we simply don’t have enough to suggest he is and I’m not an idiot) but that in his context he’s doing remarkably well

So if we then look at Ten Hag and our history in context is the only logical conclusion that he’s a problem or is there something else?And in yet to be convinced it’s all on Ten Hag.

In your post you gave Ten Hag 1.95 points per game, which is not "real" (as you're including games that don't give you points). His ppg in the league (where this is most meaningful), according to Transfermarkt, is 1.86.

Who has bested that? Tuchel had 1.94 ppg in his PL tenure (which lasted less than Ten Hag's). Pochettino had 2.05 ppg in his first two seasons at Spurs; he didn't win anything then or after and then got sacked. Conte had 1.87 at Spurs and he got sacked. Ole had a similar ppg (1.85) in his first 3 seasons at United, and it only drops to 1.81 when you account for his final season when he got sacked. I'm getting some of these from transfermarkt, some might be off a bit. The broader issue isn't the numbers, it's the substance. We know Klopp had a poor first season and didn't get fired, so if we compare him to anyone who didn't have bad first (or second) seasons they'll probably be better.

Another good post.

However what we’ve just listed there is by all accounts some very good managers no? At clubs that traditionally compete around the top 4. That have all “failed”.

I think more than we give credit sporting success in the PL is down to the entire organisation not just the manage and we’ve been spoilt by having arguably the best ever.

Now we need a better structure to see where that leads

 

[DWelbz19]

Ole got absolutely pilloried for the final run that led to his sacking, with the likes of Troy Deeney declaring, in this same great detail, how and why they beat us, yet we're seeing it so often now, it barely warrants discussion amongst the fanbase.

This is one of the strangest things for me. I can't quite work out if it's blind faith or people are just so jaded and fed up that they just glaze over these things. This is seriously bad. Numerous times. We've seen it, other players and managers have been quoted illustrating it. Nothing changes. Groundhog day.

Fast forward to now? We aren't good at anything. The vaunted pressing data that stops only at the initial press but omits the fallout and yawning chasms in midfield it causes counts for nothing - if your biggest so-called strength is an inlet to your biggest weaknesses, it is categorically not a strength. We cannot defend set pieces; we are dire at attacking set pieces; we do not control games and we do not have an overabundance of supplying the frontline, further, we rely on individual brilliance at a higher rate than Ole did, something Ole was absolutely dragged through the coals for.

Not one of the managers post-Fergie has been good enough or complete, but this is par with Moyes for zero discernible strengths and an abundance of weaknesses.

This is the other. There is such little that stands out for what we actually want to excel at (let alone actually do). The players we've signed and the players we target have no continuity. Putting a better infrastructure in place doesn't do much to fix that.

Or, alternatively, if ten Hag requires a strong infrastructure and a team dealing with recruitment -- exactly why are we keeping him as manager over literally any other coach in football?

The biggest surprise and letdown of ten Hag's tenure for me is that he has been the antithesis of modernisation, entrenched and unadaptible as he is. By now, there is only Moyes who it might be argue has been more outcoached than ten Hag. Never in my life did I think I'd ever say that about an appointment I was so eager for.

I genuinely think this is some form of positive discrimination at this point. If the guy didn't manage one of the purest footballing entities before joining us, so many more fans who are indifferent or still have a slither of support his way would've folded long before now.

 

[Daydreamer]

Im not getting reeled into another Ole comparison debate again. I purposely didn't want to reply to it, whilst respecting his views.

It’s not really an Ole comparison debate, though. I’m kinda interested in your opinion. This thread seems to consist of two sides either talking past each other or ignoring each other. It would be interesting to see arguments be engaged, rather than entrenched position defended.

If you’re up for it and believe it to be a good-faith argument, of course.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

That season under Moyes was a disaster, but I still think we pulled the plug too soon. He should have been given time to build.
Erik has been nothing like as bad in his time here but you’re all baying for blood. I’m certain now that this fan base enjoys the misery.

So much wrong here. Where to start.

The club were absolutely right to send Moyes packing. He was never capable of managing a club of this size. His career post United only further highlights that. The club were actually ruthless with both Moyes and LvG. They should have stayed that way. Mourinho, Solskjaer and ten Hag were all given way too much time.

This season is so bad, that even Moyes looks decent in comparison. Moyes was still in Europe, having topped the group stage. He also reached the semi-finals of The League Cup. He was on 8 league defeats after 26 games. ten Hag is currently on 10 defeats after 26 PL games. Moyes lost 15 games across 51 games. ten Hag has already lost 15 games from just 36 games this season.

ten Hag will set a record for most defeats in a season post SAF if he loses just 2 more games.

And all Moyes was given was Fellaini, and then Mata in January who he got to manage for less than 15 games. ten Hag has spent hundreds of millions.

If anything, it sounds like you enjoy United being shite. Moyes had to go. ten Hag is currently deserving of the sack.

 

[Sarni]

So much wrong here. Where to start.

The club were absolutely right to send Moyes packing. He was never capable of managing a club of this size. His career post United only further highlights that. The club were actually ruthless with both Moyes and LvG. They should have stayed that way. Mourinho, Solskjaer and ten Hag were all given way too much time.

This season is so bad, that even Moyes looks decent in comparison. Moyes was still in Europe, having topped the group stage. He also reached the semi-finals of The League Cup. He was on 8 league defeats after 26 games. ten Hag is currently on 10 defeats after 26 PL games. Moyes lost 15 games across 51 games. ten Hag has already lost 15 games from just 36 games this season.

ten Hag will set a record for most defeats in a season post SAF if he loses just 2 more games.

And all Moyes was given was Fellaini, and then Mata in January who he got to manage for less than 15 games. ten Hag has spent hundreds of millions.

If anything, it sounds like you enjoy United being shite. Moyes had to go. ten Hag is currently deserving of the sack.

I agree this is far worse than Moyes season, both in results and performances, which is some achievement.

 

[VP89]

He brought Mane in his first Summer window and Salah after that. They were already a much more coherent offensive side before though, well basically they were good almost instantly and progressed from there.

They did not lose to a single top 4 side in his second season, in fact Bournemouth were the only top half team that beat them in 16-17. They were undone by poor results against lesser teams but that is far easier to fix than consistently being outplayed by all half decent (and even weak) teams.

Klopp never really struggled at Liverpool. He started quite well and got progressively better.

Right but this klopp and ten hag sub debate stemmed from goal difference and XG etc. Klopp getting Alison, VVD, salah/mane (I thought salah came first but I forget) has a big deal to do with the out performance too in year 2.

By the way I'm not saying ten hag is better than klopp. Just saying klopp had better players in year 2.

 

[VP89]

It’s not really an Ole comparison debate, though. I’m kinda interested in your opinion. This thread seems to consist of two sides either talking past each other or ignoring each other. It would be interesting to see arguments be engaged, rather than entrenched position defended. I believe this is because we don't have squad players capable of executing a style that in theory would be pretty exciting to watch.

If you’re up for it and believe it to be a good-faith argument, of course.

So I don't disagree with any sentiment that we look far too open and casually get battered in possession and sometimes chances for periods of games. I believe this to be becsuse of us not having squad players capable of executing a style which in theory, should be quite exciting.

I believe that this is massively because we are very reliant on key players being available and they simply aren't. I also think this is easily the worst squad we've had post Ferguson, with the manager obligated to rely on kids up top, and having a musical chair situation at CB and LB pretty much all season.

Yes, he's made mistakes in his game management, and also in the market. But they are overweighted in criticism because 1) any manager needs room to grow, 2) he has a shit squad to work with and 3) he has a shit structure that he's working under.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Right but this klopp and ten hag sub debate stemmed from goal difference and XG etc. Klopp getting Alison, VVD, salah/mane (I thought salah came first but I forget) has a big deal to do with the out performance too in year 2.

By the way I'm not saying ten hag is better than klopp. Just saying klopp had better players in year 2.

You’re not suggesting you need players to win football?

 

[sugar_kane]

Does anyone else feel like he's just going through the motions now? I think he knows he's on borrowed time.

He seems to just say the the same meaningless shit in every single interview - I know he's always been like this, but never so bad. He's also showing no inclination whatsoever to be pragmatic or change things up. I also think 22/23 Ten Hag is more ruthless with Rashford.

Every manager makes a mistake they can't walk back and for him I think it's been betting the house on Bruno.

 

[VP89]

You’re not suggesting you need players to win football?

Yes, at least win them well.

I dont think Ole or Jose do Jack shit with this squad. The man can't even rely on a 20 year old with next to no experience without breaking down. His back up, Martial is also broken. Ironically because Ole overplayed his ass

 

[E-mal]

This manager is terrible, I have to say LVG was a better manager in the fact that it was clear what he wanted to do, he just didn't have the players to make it happen or was not good enough to implement it. ETH has no idea what he wants to do, terrible

 

[sepulturite]

I don't think ETH is a bad coach at all per se, but something has happened this season, he decided on this style of play during the summer for this season and he's stubbornly stuck with it. Granted I think he's tweaked things a small bit in the last few weeks which is why results aren't as bad as they were, but it's just not working. I just don't understand why he doesn't revert back to last season's style, at least we'd be getting more out of Rashford and Bruno that way.

It could end up costing him his job, unless of course he's sat down with Jim and said this is the style of play that we need to stick with, give me time to get it right, who knows. Whatever it is this season is now a write off unfortunately.

 

[sugar_kane]

This manager is terrible, I have to say LVG was a better manager in the fact that it was clear what he wanted to do, he just didn't have the players to make it happen or was not good enough to implement it. ETH has no idea what he wants to do, terrible

I don't think this is fair, Ten Hag seems to be doggedly sticking to a set of tactics in the same way LVG did. Both equally ineffectual and impractical for the PL.

Ten Hag gets points for it being marginally less boring, but we're also way more vulnerable in his set up than LVG's.

What I cannot fathom is how Ten Hag thinks our openness in midfield is in any way acceptable.

 

[Betson]

Becoming more risky for INEOS to keep him rather than sack him at he end of the season , if they stick with him and we have anther season of this people will rightly question if they know what are doing as bringing in anew manager along with the reset looks a no brainer right now.

The good will towards them currently will quickly disappear if the dross we are being served up continues into next season.

 

[Redstain]

Before Klopp took over, Liverpool were not very good. In the five years before his arrival, their average league position was 6th. Their average points tally was 63, average goals scored was 66, conceded was 45, GD was +21.

Klopp took over Liverpool in October, and in that first season, league results were in line with the previous five seasons: 60 points, 63 goals scored, 50 goals conceded, +13 GD (you'll have to ignore the fact that these are full season numbers; I'm not calculating this shit). In his second season, results were clearly better than in the previous years: 76 points, 78 goals scored, 42 goals conceded, +36 GD. You can see a substantial improvement in Liverpool's fortunes even though the actual results are, objectively, "nothing special" (because 8th and 4th isn't anything special with or without context).

The problem is what happens if we do this comparison with United. In the five years before Ten Hag took over, United had an average league finish of 4th, average point tally of 69, 66 goals scored and 44 conceded, GD of +22. Last season United finished 3rd, with 75 points, scoring 58 goals and conceding 43. These numbers are fairly close to the average, with the point tally being better (by 6) but the attack being worse (by 8). The current season is worse under pretty much every metric and brings Ten Hag's performance to basically in line with the pre-Ten Hag era.

That's the major difference between the two.

Klopp is a world class manager, Sir Alex said Liverpool would win the league the minute he was introduced as the manager. It's got nothing to do with stats or percentages some managers just have a higher ceiling that is perceivable when you assess them individually. It's happening with Alonso now. Erik isn't even close to that, he had good domestic success in a limited competitive environment at Ajax which hasn't necessarily translated with United.

I don't think Erik has what it takes to be a winner at a club of this stature nor in a league this combative.

 

[Judas]

If anything, from an INEOS point of, sticking with him makes them look worse if next season is yet another write off under him. They've got the perfect excuse/reason to move on, bring in their own man etc.

 

[Redstain]

It is unprecedented the amount of teams that have played us this season and have matter of factly stated how they went about dismantling us, and it is said with such clarity that there is no doubt whatsoever we've been turned over by superior tactics, planning and execution, often with players far, far inferior and less regarded than our own.

Post-game it should always be a strong topic of conversation; the word embarrassing has been misused on the Internet for as long as I can remember, but when supposed inferior coaches and players are able to state with such certitude how they have found themselves winning against you, it's a disgrace and an embarrassment.

Ole got absolutely pilloried for the final run that led to his sacking, with the likes of Troy Deeney declaring, in this same great detail, how and why they beat us, yet we're seeing it so often now, it barely warrants discussion amongst the fanbase.

It's one thing to lose games once in a while, it's a wholly different thing when teams play against you with conviction and certainty of purpose because they feel they have you sussed and have a collective, tactical goal to hammer home. Lesser teams than yourself should never have such overwhelming collective confidence in making you crack, or in outright out-strategising you. Sure, they may win on the crest of a wave and in-game flow, but their first priority should be staying in the game and the second, avoiding a demoralising tonking. Look at how teams approach those in the top 4 and even the collective shock they have when they get anything out of those games and contrast it to us. Manchester United are viewed as a team they can play and have genuine hope against, and with how often our dire midfield set up is strolled through compared to other sides, you can see where that well of belief and conviction or sense of purpose teams have when they play us comes from.

I don't even wish to cite the halcyon days of Fergie, where teams absolutely feared a pasting from us, rather, you can look to even LVG, Mourinho and even Ole (before the wheels came off) and see that standards and expectations are rock bottom now.

Under LVG, for as boring and staid as the football could have been called, teams getting the ball of us or having any concerted period of time with it was utterly exasperating and demoralising for them. He might have bored our fans to death, but he also absolutely crushed the spirit of the opposition, particularly fodder.

Mourinho and his rubbish, bruiser boy football made games about attrition and hardship, putting opposing teams through the grinder (oo err); it took genuine quality and superiority to beat us then.

Ole's teams were basic but without a smirk, one of the best counter-attacking teams in Europe, let alone the league. You could know exactly what we set out to do in Ole's first two seasons and still not be able to stop it. We carried a clear and apparent threat and there was little to be done to stop it.

Fast forward to now? We aren't good at anything. The vaunted pressing data that stops only at the initial press but omits the fallout and yawning chasms in midfield it causes counts for nothing - if your biggest so-called strength is an inlet to your biggest weaknesses, it is categorically not a strength. We cannot defend set pieces; we are dire at attacking set pieces; we do not control games and we do not have an overabundance of supplying the frontline, further, we rely on individual brilliance at a higher rate than Ole did, something Ole was absolutely dragged through the coals for.

Not one of the managers post-Fergie has been good enough or complete, but this is par with Moyes for zero discernible strengths and an abundance of weaknesses.

Ten Hag was quite infamous for vastly overplaying his first xi at Ajax, so much so it was the biggest warning Ajax supporters gave us. What seems to have happened here is that in the absence of a strongest xi, the manager is lost at sea - if everything is not functioning to the wire with optimum efficiency, he doesn't know what to do and cannot use viable workarounds, which sees us doggedly sticking to 'the plan' because without it, at it's optimal best, there's nothing. It's such a letdown.

The conceptualisation of the "modern manager" is someone who is eclectic with contingencies for most things and a clever counter plan prepared in advance should the initial one be breached - you certainly should not hear of opposing players and managers stating how easy it was to do their thing against them. The biggest surprise and letdown of ten Hag's tenure for me is that he has been the antithesis of modernisation, entrenched and unadaptible as he is. By now, there is only Moyes who it might be argue has been more outcoached than ten Hag. Never in my life did I think I'd ever say that about an appointment I was so eager for.

It's like Black Mirror episode by now. You don't need to look beyond the pitch to see this is not and will not be the guy.

Excellent post and I have come to the same conclusion.

United will never win the league with Erik as the manager, what's the use in persisting if winning is not the ultimate projection to his management.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Going off INEOS record of sacking managers at Nice, coupled with how quickly they appear to be making decisions... I think Ten Hag is as good as gone end of the season. They will give him enough rope to hang himself.

 

[Sarni]

Yes, at least win them well.

I dont think Ole or Jose do Jack shit with this squad. The man can't even rely on a 20 year old with next to no experience without breaking down. His back up, Martial is also broken. Ironically because Ole overplayed his ass

Ole did better with pretty much same team minus 400m worth of signings, plus ever injured Pogba.

Hehe.

 

[Gavinb33]

The thing I dont understand about how open we are is we don't create a lot of chances so it's not as if the deficiency in defense is because our attack is going all out and creating and scoring multiple chances, but it's nowhere near so how are we so open it's got to be structurally and you can fix that and it's not player availability dependent we've seen multiple teams with bad players be able to be compact and hard to beat so it must be this open due to managers stubbornness

 

[lysglimt]

We have 3 huge problems - Rashford, Bruno and Casemiro. Rashford can't be bothered, Casemiro is a mix of can't be bothered and too slow - and Bruno looks like he has given up because of the other two. If ETH wants a chance of surviving past this season - he needs to get rid of Rashford and Casemiro in the first 11. People complain about Antony - but I would take him over Rashford. At least Antony works defensively - Rashford doesn't give a sh...