Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Leftback99 said:
Go for it. Whats our goal difference in his time here again? You'll understand points and wins which you'll try throw back at me are far more subject to variance right?
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Variance over 98 games is unlikely to be a huge factor here (and I say this especially considering we’ve lost games we could have won without having been so injury plagued). Essentially it’s hard to argue against this by suggesting it’s all luck or that luck has played a significant role.

98 Games
60 Wins
11 Draws
27 Losses
172 GF
125 GA
+47 GD
1.95 ppG
61.22% Win
In role 1 year 7 months 24 days

Klopp (entire Liverpool managerial career)
2.08 ppG
In role 8 years 4 months 3 days

Over his first 2 seasons:
Games/W/D/L/GF:GA/Pts/Ppg
Combined: 99/50/18/21/186:113/178pts/1.79ppG
50.5% Win

1)52/23/17/12/94:66/86pts/1.65ppG
2)47/27/11/9/92:47/92pts/1.96ppG

Arteta
1.94 ppG (entire Arsenal managerial career)
In role 4 years 2 months 4 days

Over his first 2 seasons:
Games/W/D/L/GF:GA/Pts/Ppg
Combined:
86/47/16/23/149:92/157/1.82ppG
54% Win

1) 28/16/6/6/45:26/54pts/1.93ppG
2)58/31/10/17/104:66/103pts/1.78ppG

Essentially look at 2 pretty good PL coaches who didn’t come into perfect set ups over their first couple of seasons. Ten Hag has outperformed both and it’s not really even close in terms of win % which has taken a battering this season due to injuries and yet still he’s there.
 
This team plays some of the worst football I have seen. He manages to make all teams look full of fight and spirit Vs our jogging about style. He is clueless and has had enough time to turn this around, he clearly isn't. Get him out and try or at least give it a go for the CL spot.
 
Playing out of position seems to be a new sport under ETH. After 4 wins and 2 injuries, our LW plays as a 9, our RW plays on the left, our 100 Mill. signing is on the bench, so a teenager should save us on the RW. Later our Nr. 10 should be on the wing, after a Nr. 10, you plays as an 8 is subbed on for our RW. our Nr. 6 is replaced by a Nr. 8, who plays like a striker. Our 2nd Nr. 8 is replaced by a RW. Our LB is a CB with the mobility of a tank, the passing of a onefooted pirate and no ability to win a aerial duel. At the end we loose because 9 out of 10 forget to defend and most of them did not even try to get back, maybe they all thought they were our Nr. 9....
 
I'm pissed off with him and Liverpool winning today definitely hasn't helped but Ten Hag having the personality of a wet sock is pissing me off.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Variance over 98 games is unlikely to be a huge factor here (and I say this especially considering we’ve lost games we could have won without having been so injury plagued). Essentially it’s hard to argue against this by suggesting it’s all luck or that luck has played a significant role.

98 Games
60 Wins
11 Draws
27 Losses
172 GF
125 GA
+47 GD
1.95 ppG
61.22% Win
In role 1 year 7 months 24 days

Klopp (entire Liverpool managerial career)
2.08 ppG
In role 8 years 4 months 3 days

Over his first 2 seasons:
Games/W/D/L/GF:GA/Pts/Ppg
Combined: 99/50/18/21/186:113/178pts/1.79ppG
50.5% Win

1)52/23/17/12/94:66/86pts/1.65ppG
2)47/27/11/9/92:47/92pts/1.96ppG

Arteta
1.94 ppG (entire Arsenal managerial career)
In role 4 years 2 months 4 days

Over his first 2 seasons:
Games/W/D/L/GF:GA/Pts/Ppg
Combined:
86/47/16/23/149:92/157/1.82ppG
54% Win

1) 28/16/6/6/45:26/54pts/1.93ppG
2)58/31/10/17/104:66/103pts/1.78ppG

Essentially look at 2 pretty good PL coaches who didn’t come into perfect set ups over their first couple of seasons. Ten Hag has outperformed both and it’s not really even close in terms of win % which has taken a battering this season due to injuries and yet still he’s there.
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Mixing league and cup games is meaningless.
A +15 GD over 64 league games is the most telling stat.
 
Leftback99 said:
Mixing league and cup games is meaningless.
A +15 GD over 64 league games is the most telling stat.
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It’s not and you know it’s not.

You’ve got here the biggest sample size we can have for him. He’s winning.

These are managers entering sub optimal sporting structures and developing them in their first few seasons and this is their output.

Let’s just look at his PL record then:
57% win (including this injury plagued season) which is still better than Klopp and Arteta for their first 2 seasons too?
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I'm pissed off with him and Liverpool winning today definitely hasn't helped but Ten Hag having the personality of a wet sock is pissing me off.
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I haven’t watched a single press conference or post match interview he’s done for about a year. He’s got to be the most bland and predictable manager for interviews we’ve had in the post Fergie era. Did think his UWS interview was good though

I also dislike that he’s so accepting of it when we get piss poor referee decisions against us. It gives the impression he lacks passion. All the best managers will call it out
 
I think it’s now obvious he doesn’t have the philosophy we thought he did, he’s far more pragmatic than the club probably anticipated which is a bad thing considering he was hired to give us a style.

It’s also clear he doesn’t have the personality or aura in the role. It is what it is. Sack.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
I haven’t watched a single press conference or post match interview he’s done for about a year. He’s got to be the most bland and predictable manager for interviews we’ve had in the post Fergie era. Did think his UWS interview was good though

I also dislike that he’s so accepting of it when we get piss poor referee decisions against us. It gives the impression he lacks passion. All the best managers will call it out
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I hate that I'm jealous of both Liverpool and City for having managers with character, even though they're both weirdos. Even Arsenal's manager makes you feel something one way or another. We have a monotonous robot in charge unfortunately.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
It’s not and you know it’s not.

You’ve got here the biggest sample size we can have for him. He’s winning.

These are managers entering sub optimal sporting structures and developing them in their first few seasons and this is their output.

Let’s just look at his PL record then:
57% win (including this injury plagued season) which is still better than Klopp and Arteta for their first 2 seasons too?
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It's is, whichever line you were responding to.
 
I look at that Goal difference between Klopp's first 2 years compared to Ten Hag, and it doesn't look good for Ten Hag. This same line of thought is why I believed Klopp was closer to doing better than Mourinho.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
I’ve brought you some clear and detailed analysis you know you can’t really argue well against so you respond with such a lazy and poor effort.

Really disappointing response @Leftback99
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We've scored 78/172 (46%) of the goals in 34/98 (35%) of the matches. Or 2.3 goals per game in cups against weaker opposition vs 1.5 in the league.

Mixing them is nonsensical unless the level is the same for all games.
 
Leftback99 said:
We've scored 78/172 (46%) of the goals in 34/98 (35%) of the matches. Or 2.3 goals per game in cups against weaker opposition vs 1.5 in the league.

Mixing them is nonsensical unless the level is the same for all games.
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I gave you the stats without cups too. His win % is still 57% in just the league which is still higher than Klopp and Arteta in their first 2 seasons. It also puts him comfortably in the top 10 PL managers of all time.
 
MJay said:
Luis Enrique, please. Has the charisma to match. I can imagine him giving motivating half time team talks, maybe a bit like the unhinged ones from Pep in the Amazon documentary. That Barcelona treble winning team is extremely underrated. That team played high intensity possession when needed, and some of the best counter attacking I have ever seen, when needed. He's proven to be very adaptable with handling big names too, as seen with all the egos in his Barcelona teams, and I have noticed excellent man management of Mbappe so far. If he had a Kane or Benzema for Spain in Qatar 22, I truly believe Spain would have reached the finals.
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Decent shout but he’s not leaving PSG anytime soon !
 
The league is looking like an obvious 6th place finish, especially once we go 11 points behind Villa again next week after City beat us and they beat Luton. Genuinely might as well have let them beat us twice instead of pulling off our only impressive results this season against them as that would have put them only 2 points off Liverpool and still having to play them at Villa Park.

Aside from that, the Champions League and Carabao Cup campaigns were utter failures, and even if we were to beat Forest in the FA Cup, the odds of us drawing City or Liverpool shorten by the round. I’d give us a 15% chance of beating either if we were to play them at OT, 10% chance at Wembley and 0% away. In other words, we won’t be winning the FA Cup too, at least not without Shaw and Martinez as our build up play is non-existent without them, which is another black mark against Ten Hag.

At Manchester United, how can a manager survive that? I genuinely like Ten Hag and have defended him throughout as it’s not all his fault, but if Sir Jim is serious about restoring us at the top table of the game, which he very well sounds like he is, he has to do the needy at the end of the season.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
It’s not and you know it’s not.

You’ve got here the biggest sample size we can have for him. He’s winning.

These are managers entering sub optimal sporting structures and developing them in their first few seasons and this is their output.

Let’s just look at his PL record then:
57% win (including this injury plagued season) which is still better than Klopp and Arteta for their first 2 seasons too?
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The problem with this is that stats don't tell you anything about the brand of football. ETH even argues the team over-performed last season, so beyond his control and thus more points last season than he expected? (btw, I hate it when managers say things like that)

The football United play is terrible. With Klopp and Arteta you could quite early tell what kind of football they were aiming for. Hell, even with the tumescent football of LVG, you could tell what he wanted from the players, and they were able to follow instructions. Either ETH's instructions are unclear, or players are not following them. Either way, it's on him.

Everything is management's fault. When it comes down to it, there is much truth to that.

We've been riddled with injuries, and we've had constraints on our spending because of FFP. However, again, ETH has been allowed to spend huge amounts, but he's spent huge amounts on duds thus preventing us from buying another striker for instance. Fulham also had injuries and still managed to beat us, at Old Trafford. There is no excuse for that - if it happens once every blue moon, fine, but it's happening again and again.
 
He uses the injuries list as an excuse of why we do not play well. But look at Klopp’s Liverpool - they played their youth and a lot of their second team yesterday and yet got the win against Chelsea. We can’t even play well with our second team, who are internationals btw, against teams like Luton!
 
Sarni said:
I will remain of the opinion that he has the safest job in the league and is going to be untouchable for another 12+ months. If there’s one thing he is good at it is talking the talk, he will have assured our new governors behind the scenes that everything is heading in the right direction and I don’t delude myself into thinking that they won’t buy it.
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I do not think that SJR and other Ineos people are idiots. Our new CEO also does not look like an idiot, same for Ashworth. So unlike the brigade of idiots that ruled the club before, I believe they will easily see that EtH is a talker, an ultimate snake-oil salesman.
 
Rossa said:
The problem with this is that stats don't tell you anything about the brand of football. ETH even argues the team over-performed last season, so beyond his control and thus more points last season than he expected? (btw, I hate it when managers say things like that)

The football United play is terrible. With Klopp and Arteta you could quite early tell what kind of football they were aiming for. Hell, even with the tumescent football of LVG, you could tell what he wanted from the players, and they were able to follow instructions. Either ETH's instructions are unclear, or players are not following them. Either way, it's on him.

Everything is management's fault. When it comes down to it, there is much truth to that.

We've been riddled with injuries, and we've had constraints on our spending because of FFP. However, again, ETH has been allowed to spend huge amounts, but he's spent huge amounts on duds thus preventing us from buying another striker for instance. Fulham also had injuries and still managed to beat us, at Old Trafford. There is no excuse for that - if it happens once every blue moon, fine, but it's happening again and again.
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We still need time to build a squad capable of better football and dealing with injuries and yet despite this he’s still managing a 60% win rate and a higher average ppG than all PL managers other than Guardiola I believe over their first 2 seasons.

So if his ideas were so unsustainable we’d not have over that period so much success.

Now please correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think Klopp or Arteta had the same injuries we’ve had in their early seasons. They also I believe had a sporting structure in place?

Or at very least their successful sporting structure was put in place during their first season? Liverpool had Edwards early in the 2015/16 season and Arteta had Edu as technical and now sporting director.

Ten Hag is not responsible for the price we pay for a footballer he does not negotiate the fee or salary so let’s not blame him for something he can’t control.

Over his entire United career we’ve lost 27.5% of games. Find me any manager that loses less than that across their first 2 seasons please?
Freak said:
He uses the injuries list as an excuse of why we do not play well. But look at Klopp’s Liverpool - they played their youth and a lot of their second team yesterday and yet got the win against Chelsea. We can’t even play well with our second team, who are internationals btw, against teams like Luton!
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Klopp’s Liverpool is exactly that. It’s an 8 yr 4 month and 4 day project.

We beat Luton away. Liverpool and Klopp drew. What’s your point by referencing a result we bettered? We took 6 points from them. Pool took 4?
 
VP89 said:
From an article in 2013?
Its a valuable indicator, I agree. But not without context and certainly not more reliable than the win %.
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Win% needs context like the fact if you use it for ETH's entire tenure you know we have had incredible cup draws and a Europa league campaign. And of course we don't really draw games under ETH so yes good win percentage not such a good loss percentage.

XG and goal difference give you the best indication of how a team is performing over a long period. Neither are perfect teams with good XG and GD will generally be at the top.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
We still need time to build a squad capable of better football and dealing with injuries and yet despite this he’s still managing a 60% win rate and a higher average ppG than all PL managers other than Guardiola I believe over their first 2 seasons.

So if his ideas were so unsustainable we’d not have over that period so much success.

Now please correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think Klopp or Arteta had the same injuries we’ve had in their early seasons. They also I believe had a sporting structure in place?

Or at very least their successful sporting structure was put in place during their first season? Liverpool had Edwards early in the 2015/16 season and Arteta had Edu as technical and now sporting director.

Ten Hag is not responsible for the price we pay for a footballer he does not negotiate the fee or salary so let’s not blame him for something he can’t control.

Over his entire United career we’ve lost 27.5% of games. Find me any manager that loses less than that across their first 2 seasons please?

Klopp’s Liverpool is exactly that. It’s an 8 yr 4 month and 4 day project.

We beat Luton away. Liverpool and Klopp drew. What’s your point by referencing a result we bettered? We took 6 points from them. Pool took 4?
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When an entire argument for keeping a manager comes down to giving him enough time and money to build an entirely new squad, you know it's time for him to go
 
VP89 said:
From an article in 2013?
Its a valuable indicator, I agree. But not without context and certainly not more reliable than the win %.
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The article that has done some actual research rather than your "because I say so", basically says the opposite.
 
Longshanks said:
Win% needs context like the fact if you use it for ETH's entire tenure you know we have had incredible cup draws and a Europa league campaign. And of course we don't really draw games under ETH so yes good win percentage not such a good loss percentage.

XG and goal difference give you the best indication of how a team is performing over a long period. Neither are perfect teams with good XG and GD will generally be at the top.
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See post below. And no, win % is a more telling stat over a long period. The XG and GD are good leading indicators but absolutely pointless in isolation to hang your hat on. Which a lot of our posters love to do when we are on a winning run, just to dick on the manager some more.

Leftback99 said:
The article that has done some actual research rather than your "because I say so", basically says the opposite.
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I've read the article, and I'm pointing to the context around our XG, which you choose to ignore because you're purposely being obtuse. 2 of his front 3 are basically kids because they opted to go for a project and take their time with them (an FFP obligation, not his choice before you mug him off for it).
He also had a crazy amount of injuries in the back line all season. But your 10+ year old article fails to properly consider these events.
 
I can't believe he's being defended still. Snake oil salesman with the personality of a rock is the way forward it seems.

Win percentage might be good but the way he has set up the team for a year now should show how out of depth he is. His tactics are woeful and gets bailed out by Hojlund in recent games. It's not like he's tactically outsmarted the opposing manager, every game is a fecking basketball game
 
VP89 said:
See post below. And no, win % is a more telling stat over a long period. The XG and GD are good leading indicators but absolutely pointless in isolation to hang your hat on. Which a lot of our posters love to do when we are on a winning run, just to dick on the manager some more.


I've read the article, and I'm pointing to the context around our XG, which you choose to ignore because you're purposely being obtuse. 2 of his front 3 are basically kids because they opted to go for a project and take their time with them (an FFP obligation, not his choice before you mug him off for it).
He also had a crazy amount of injuries in the back line all season. But your 10+ year old article fails to properly consider these events.
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Please prove evidence of this, or that things have significantly changed in 10 years compared to the article.
 
Resch said:
Playing out of position seems to be a new sport under ETH. After 4 wins and 2 injuries, our LW plays as a 9, our RW plays on the left, our 100 Mill. signing is on the bench, so a teenager should save us on the RW. Later our Nr. 10 should be on the wing, after a Nr. 10, you plays as an 8 is subbed on for our RW. our Nr. 6 is replaced by a Nr. 8, who plays like a striker. Our 2nd Nr. 8 is replaced by a RW. Our LB is a CB with the mobility of a tank, the passing of a onefooted pirate and no ability to win a aerial duel. At the end we loose because 9 out of 10 forget to defend and most of them did not even try to get back, maybe they all thought they were our Nr. 9....
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Ten Hag Ball.
 
Leftback99 said:
Please prove evidence of this, or that things have significantly changed in 10 years compared to the article.
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You want evidence that win % is a better stat to evaluate a managers time over a long period over goal difference?

Here's some evidence - points are decided on how much a manager wins, not just how many goals they score in total.
 
Another defeat and another team stating how their plan worked, detailing how exactly they were to beat us at home.
ETH has no plan and is the easiest manager to set up against. Changing playing staff isn’t going to change his failing approach.
Needs to go now if we want European football in any form next season.
 
VP89 said:
You want evidence that win % is a better stat to evaluate a managers time over a long period over goal difference?

Here's some evidence - points are decided on how much a manager wins, not just how many goals they score in total.
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Do draws count in football?
 
soapythecat said:
Another defeat and another team stating how their plan worked, detailing how exactly they were to beat us at home.
ETH has no plan and is the easiest manager to set up against. Changing playing staff isn’t going to change his failing approach.
Needs to go now if we want European football in any form next season.
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For me it was the way Brighton went about their press conferences earlier this year that let me know we were fecked.

Can’t remember the player but De Zerbi was well upbeat prior to the game & the player basically said they’ll out run us, only to. . . outrun us.

I was gone from then.
 
Revan said:
Do draws count in football?
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Sure.
But the poster who had this subdebate with him pointed out that Ten Hag's win % (even when limited to the PL) is very strong in his first two seasons at 57%. Even when you consider draws, it puts him in a very respectable position in his first 2 years, versus klopp and Arteta at 1.95points per game.
 
Longshanks said:
Win% needs context like the fact if you use it for ETH's entire tenure you know we have had incredible cup draws and a Europa league campaign. And of course we don't really draw games under ETH so yes good win percentage not such a good loss percentage.

XG and goal difference give you the best indication of how a team is performing over a long period. Neither are perfect teams with good XG and GD will generally be at the top.
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So you’re arguing that his wins aren’t as valid?

If we’re not really drawing games doesn’t that suggest he’s trying for the 3 points more than avoiding losing 1?

May I be selective about his losses then?

I don’t disagree that XG and goal difference give you a good idea but the best? I’d say winning 57% of your PL games to date is a good measure too?
AndySmith1990 said:
When an entire argument for keeping a manager comes down to giving him enough time and money to build an entirely new squad, you know it's time for him to go
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We need to build a new squad regardless of the manager. Unless you think we’re the finished article now?
 
Leftback99 said:
Please prove evidence of this, or that things have significantly changed in 10 years compared to the article.
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VP89 said:
You want evidence that win % is a better stat to evaluate a managers time over a long period over goal difference?

Here's some evidence - points are decided on how much a manager wins, not just how many goals they score in total.
Click to expand...
:lol: We’re finally here we’re finally at the point where we have to explain why a win is handy.
 
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