Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Member 58925]

That the Glazers' ownership has rotted the club to the extent that it negatively effects the football side of things is not my opinion, and all that's required to get this is a basic understanding of competitive club sports.

We have posters here that are so unhinged against the manager of the club they profess to support that they'd shift blame from the Glazers. The Ole kids in particular actually want ETH to fail because they can't bring themselves to admit that his full time predecessor was unqualified. The premise that they're now working off of is that players and staff, aka football professionals, who said ETH is a mad man for attention to detail, is sending his players on the pitch with no plan. Enlighten me kids, which football professional that has played for or worked with him do you know better than? What you should actually be doing is taking a second to appreciate the miracle that a single soul on this planet is willing to degrade themselves by engaging in debate with you.

 

[Daydreamer]

That the Glazers' ownership has rotted the club to the extent that it negatively effects the football side of things is not my opinion, and all that's required to get this is a basic understanding of competitive club sports.

We have posters here that are so unhinged against the manager of the club they profess to support that they'd shift blame from the Glazers. The Ole kids in particular actually want ETH to fail because they can't bring themselves to admit that his full time predecessor was unqualified. The premise that they're now working off of is that players and staff, aka football professionals, who said ETH is a mad man for attention to detail, is sending his players on the pitch with no plan. Enlighten me kids, which football professional that has played for or worked with him do you know better than? What you should actually be doing is taking a second to appreciate the miracle that a single soul on this planet is willing to degrade themselves by engaging in debate with you.

Without getting into a debate ETH’s performance as a Manager, what is it about him that inspires such fierce loyalty from you, @BenitoSTARR and others?

Moyes was Ferguson’s handpicked successor.

van Gaal was a brilliant tactician who influenced an entire generation of Managers.

Jose at one point was the greatest Manager on the planet.

Ole was a club legend who was responsible for arguably the greatest singular moment in United’s history.

I can understand why each post-SAF era Manager has had their staunch defenders. Why is this the case with ETH?

 

[Iowa Red]

No it wasn't no matter what side of the fence you fall on when it comes to the manager debate you just shouldn't be insulting the other poster by calling him names, I'm sure the mods would agree.

The poster you are defending just insulted another poster by saying " I'm sorry ETH slept with your wife. That was wrong of him."

Are you going to call him out on that or do you just defend ETH supporters?

 

[Cerberus]

Without getting into a debate ETH’s performance as a Manager, what is it about him that inspires such fierce loyalty from you, @BenitoSTARR and others?

Moyes was Ferguson’s handpicked successor.

van Gaal was a brilliant tactician who influenced an entire generation of Managers.

Jose at one point was the greatest Manager on the planet.

Ole was a club legend who was responsible for arguably the greatest singular moment United’s history.

I can understand why each post-SAF era Manager has had their staunch defenders. Why is this the case with ETH?

Can't speak for those posters, but I think for a lot of ETH supporters it's the fact that he's the first "modern" manager we've had. All the previous managers were often considered past-it or tactical dinosaurs (or PE coaches in Ole's case) whereas ETH was us trying to emulate the success of Pep by hiring someone that could set us up as an elite pressing & possession based team. Erik not doing well just leaves a lot of people feeling clueless about what to look for in a successor because he was supposed to be the man to bring us back to the top. You can kinda see this in the discussion around his potential sacking - the primary question is always "Who would you replace him with?". For a lot of them, if Erik can't succeed then they can't imagine his replacement doing so.

It's just another manifestation of how highly the position of manager is viewed at the club. Too much faith is placed in whoever is hired, and if or when they don't succeed it always causes a larger rift in our fanbase compared to those of most other elite clubs where managers coming and going is just normal service.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Told you filthy lot, give him a run of games with most of our regulars and we'll get back to the swing of things. Still don't even have Martinez.

 

[Frosty]

Can't speak for those posters, but I think for a lot of ETH supporters it's the fact that he's the first "modern" manager we've had. All the previous managers were often considered past-it or tactical dinosaurs (or PE coaches in Ole's case) whereas ETH was us trying to emulate the success of Pep by hiring someone that could set us up as an elite pressing & possession based team. Erik not doing well just leaves a lot of people feeling clueless about what to look for in a successor because he was supposed to be the man to bring us back to the top. You can kinda see this in the discussion around his potential sacking - the primary question is always "Who would you replace him with?". For a lot of them, if Erik can't succeed then they can't imagine his replacement doing so.

It's just another manifestation of how highly the position of manager is viewed at the club. Too much faith is placed in whoever is hired, and if or when they don't succeed it always causes a larger rift in our fanbase compared to those of most other elite clubs where managers coming and going is just normal service.

I think our club for too long treated the manager as the one individual who will turn things round via force of willpower alone.

Now INEOS have come in and we look like we will have competent people in charge, I am happy if the club decide to replace the manager.

I haven't wanted ETH replaced last year mostly because I had zero faith in Murtough and the Glazers not to repeat past mistakes and just repeat the boom bust managerial appointments.

 

[tjb]

Can't speak for those posters, but I think for a lot of ETH supporters it's the fact that he's the first "modern" manager we've had. All the previous managers were often considered past-it or tactical dinosaurs (or PE coaches in Ole's case) whereas ETH was us trying to emulate the success of Pep by hiring someone that could set us up as an elite pressing & possession based team. Erik not doing well just leaves a lot of people feeling clueless about what to look for in a successor because he was supposed to be the man to bring us back to the top. You can kinda see this in the discussion around his potential sacking - the primary question is always "Who would you replace him with?". For a lot of them, if Erik can't succeed then they can't imagine his replacement doing so.

It's just another manifestation of how highly the position of manager is viewed at the club. Too much faith is placed in whoever is hired, and if or when they don't succeed it always causes a larger rift in our fanbase compared to those of most other elite clubs where managers coming and going is just normal service.

I don't get it either. The explanations they provide mean they will never actually assess him. Without any knowledge of his training techniques or his on pitch instructions, they've blamed players and the club for poor football on the pitch.How bad do we have to play, how bad do we have to be as a team for him to be considered a poor manager?Right now it sounds like everything he does comes with an excuse that can't even be proven. Yet this logic doesn't apply to players.

Why can we all decide that Antony is a bad player. Isn't he also operating under the structure that is United.What about Murtough or Arnold...why shouldn't they have been given the benefit of the doubt...they're also working for the Glazers.

I do honestly believe that even though the Glazers have been terrible, fans use them as a direct scapegoat for every failure there is at the club. They don't define the tactics on the pitch, they don't recruit and they don't train the squad. It's quite obvious that they aren't football people and didn't hire football people. So the football people we have hired ( usually the manager and coaches) have been granted a lot of say and power, without getting checked. Outside of a few interjections ( the sale of Martial and the veto of Perisic), our managers have always been given a free hand. All of them allude to this and given how freely leaks have come out of Old Trafford over the years, managers were clearly not hamstrung by the club.

Our recruitment under ETH hasn't even been bad. On paper, we have a good squad, with young players and experienced winners. Even in regard to depth, other teams use the likes of Harvey Elliot, Curtis Jones, Endo, Tomiyasu, Kiwior, Rico Lewis and Oscar Bobb. Do they have better overall squads, yes. But we should be playing much better football with the one we do have. I don't believe Mctominay, Eriksen, Amrabat, Antony, Lindelof, Martial and Wan Bissaka are so bad in regard to depth, that we can't play decent football. Could we have a better overall squad, yes? However, we should be playing much better than this.

 

[Grande]

Without getting into a debate ETH’s performance as a Manager, what is it about him that inspires such fierce loyalty from you, @BenitoSTARR and others?

Moyes was Ferguson’s handpicked successor.

van Gaal was a brilliant tactician who influenced an entire generation of Managers.

Jose at one point was the greatest Manager on the planet.

Ole was a club legend who was responsible for arguably the greatest singular moment United’s history.

I can understand why each post-SAF era Manager has had their staunch defenders. Why is this the case with ETH?

I’m not really in the business of fierce loyalty, but I still think the criticism of Ten Hag this year, while based on reasonable premises, is way way over the top, and that people talking of sacking him mid season or knowing he is incompetent or calling him a fraud etc are talking put of their emotive arses. Still I like the question:

Moyes was maybe not so super hand picked, but understandable why someone like Fergie could have him on his list. I was very disappointed with the decision, but decided to give him a fair shot. He clearly was shafted by a) the board/Ed and b) the old timer players, and I never thought he was a bad manager, but neither a fit for Man Utd. I didn’t particularily like his football or ideas wether at Everton or United, but I do like a middling club doing sturdy work in a no nonsense way, like he had Everton and has had West Ham doing. Decent lad, out of his depth and backstabbed.


Van Gaal - Pardoxically loved the guy and was sceptical to his taste in football, how he made Barcelona (successfully) play. His stints at AZ and The Netherlands impressed me, though, and I was hoping he had added a more direct aspect to his ‘philosophy’ based on that. Promising early signs and hopeful signings went to shit when it turned out his success with youth was temporary, his football was as cautious as in the nineties, and he didn’t particularily gel with any of the interesting players bought for him. I think the bad buys were his kiss of death, a good coach still, and I still love his character even if he is a self gloating schmuck.

Mourinho - never liked Mourinho. But I didn’t think he was washed up, even if he wasn’t necessarily as hot as in his incredibly impressive glory days. But I dreaded the football, the personality, the squad politics and the heralded crash. I came to change my mind a bit on his ideas and personality, and hoped he had gotten renewed strength of ambition to try to prove to the world he could produce exciting football. First 1 1/2 season was a cautiously positive experience, but then every fear came back with a vengeance. Sevilla games was when I knew I had been living on hopes and illusion. Still not a dinosaur, but what a relief he’s gone. He too was shafted by many unwise buys. He is no Ferguson.

Solskjær - what a breath of relief and joy. I enjoyed 80 per cent of his stint more than any of the previous three managers. Only dark clouds were a significant hub of supporters who had it in for him since month two of his stay and never stopped repeating themselves. Much of the criticism was beyond clueless. That doesn’t mean he didn’t make critical mistakes or had limitations. Overworking the players the first season. Underestimating the demands of going from transition focused to pro active pressuring football with the players he had/got (Bissaka, Maguire). Accepting Ronaldo. More trust based leadership might be a mistake, it’s a Scandinavian style clearly at odds with leadership culture in many of the countries weremost players hail from, but he seemed to balance it better than many compatriots have when going abroad. I think he had his limitations and we saw them, I suspect he’ll struggle at many other clubs in the big 5 leagues, but some fan groups apart, I think he was the best manager we’ve had after Ferguson in effect thus far, with how he fit the club and used his strengths. I also think that many of the changes we have seen speeding up under Radcliffe (seemingly), got to a slow start under influence from him. Great guy. Shafted by Ed and Glazers by letting him operate as a mini Ferguson in a prehistoric set up. Still a legend.

Cameos:

Giggs - showed clearly in a documentary his short comings as a manager in the modern game. Not a bad coach, though, but the worst who has been coach at Man Utd since I don’t know when.

Carrick - I’d love to see him given a longer interim. Intelligent, thorough, a natural step on from Solskjær when first in that role. Sceptical wether he has the personality and intensity demanded at the very top though. But would have given him the rest of the season in a heart beat.

Rangnick - shafted by a theoretical but ill-advised mission impossible. Not a bad coach, if not a modern coaching genious either. Did what he was called in to do, which was too much in too short time with the wrong players and the wrong set up, style and timing.

Now:
Ten Hag - to me he is the first well thought out long term candidate to lead a change into modern football style and training structure. This was based on what I knew about him while at Ajax, he seemed the prime candidate by far to me. Looking further into his history just strengthened that impression. Turning an open heart surgery into a third place, two finals, a cup win and some memorable Europa performances vs Barca just strengthened that impression even further. Dealing with soap opera issues like Greenwood, Ronaldo and Sancho the way he did just atrengthened that impression more. So to me, these past five months (until new year) has decidedly teated my faith - he is not perfect or godlike at all. I am not certain he will succeed. The reasons why he should be given benefit of doubt are many (injuries, open heart surgery incomplete and dependent on other factors, un precedented amount on uncontrolleable soap operatic curve balls), but we know what happens if a guy loses a dressing room, and the United dressing room has not been a frtress of rugged strength since it flexed it’s muscles to get rid of David Moyes a decade back.

My main issue with most takes on managers I’ve seen here, is the over- and underestimation, particularily the latter, of our mnagers as if they are more than a 20% factor at best in how we will look in the end result count. Solskjær was one stray penalty and 115 counts of cheating away from a league and Europa double, fifteen games later he was deemed as out of his depth by a collective media. The truth is always in between, but in fact all our coaches past Ferguson are good coaches measured up to almost anyone even in the top five leagues. Almost no managers reproduce success at several clubs in several seasons. They are just a part of the jiggsaw, with extremely few exceptions.

But anyone saying Ten Hag has no structure or style of play, I’m out of that conversation.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I’m not really in the business of fierce loyalty, but I still think the criticism of Ten Hag this year, while based on reasonable premises, is way way over the top, and that people talking of sacking him mid season or knowing he is incompetent or calling him a fraud etc are talking put of their emotive arses. Still I like the question:

Moyes was maybe not so super hand picked, but understandable why someone like Fergie could have him on his list. I was very disappointed with the decision, but decided to give him a fair shot. He clearly was shafted by a) the board/Ed and b) the old timer players, and I never thought he was a bad manager, but neither a fit for Man Utd. I didn’t particularily like his football or ideas wether at Everton or United, but I do like a middling club doing sturdy work in a no nonsense way, like he had Everton and has had West Ham doing. Decent lad, out of his depth and backstabbed.


Van Gaal - Pardoxically loved the guy and was sceptical to his taste in football, how he made Barcelona (successfully) play. His stints at AZ and The Netherlands impressed me, though, and I was hoping he had added a more direct aspect to his ‘philosophy’ based on that. Promising early signs and hopeful signings went to shit when it turned out his success with youth was temporary, his football was as cautious as in the nineties, and he didn’t particularily gel with any of the interesting players bought for him. I think the bad buys were his kiss of death, a good coach still, and I still love his character even if he is a self gloating schmuck.

Mourinho - never liked Mourinho. But I didn’t think he was washed up, even if he wasn’t necessarily as hot as in his incredibly impressive glory days. But I dreaded the football, the personality, the squad politics and the heralded crash. I came to change my mind a bit on his ideas and personality, and hoped he had gotten renewed strength of ambition to try to prove to the world he could produce exciting football. First 1 1/2 season was a cautiously positive experience, but then every fear came back with a vengeance. Sevilla games was when I knew I had been living on hopes and illusion. Still not a dinosaur, but what a relief he’s gone. He too was shafted by many unwise buys. He is no Ferguson.

Solskjær - what a breath of relief and joy. I enjoyed 80 per cent of his stint more than any of the previous three managers. Only dark clouds were a significant hub of supporters who had it in for him since month two of his stay and never stopped repeating themselves. Much of the criticism was beyond clueless. That doesn’t mean he didn’t make critical mistakes or had limitations. Overworking the players the first season. Underestimating the demands of going from transition focused to pro active pressuring football with the players he had/got (Bissaka, Maguire). Accepting Ronaldo. More trust based leadership might be a mistake, it’s a Scandinavian style clearly at odds with leadership culture in many of the countries weremost players hail from, but he seemed to balance it better than many compatriots have when going abroad. I think he had his limitations and we saw them, I suspect he’ll struggle at many other clubs in the big 5 leagues, but some fan groups apart, I think he was the best manager we’ve had after Ferguson in effect thus far, with how he fit the club and used his strengths. I also think that many of the changes we have seen speeding up under Radcliffe (seemingly), got to a slow start under influence from him. Great guy. Shafted by Ed and Glazers by letting him operate as a mini Ferguson in a prehistoric set up. Still a legend.

Cameos:

Giggs - showed clearly in a documentary his short comings as a manager in the modern game. Not a bad coach, though, but the worst who has been coach at Man Utd since I don’t know when.

Carrick - I’d love to see him given a longer interim. Intelligent, thorough, a natural step on from Solskjær when first in that role. Sceptical wether he has the personality and intensity demanded at the very top though. But would have given him the rest of the season in a heart beat.

Rangnick - shafted by a theoretical but ill-advised mission impossible. Not a bad coach, if not a modern coaching genious either. Did what he was called in to do, which was too much in too short time with the wrong players and the wrong set up, style and timing.

Now:
Ten Hag - to me he is the first well thought out long term candidate to lead a change into modern football style and training structure. This was based on what I knew about him while at Ajax, he seemed the prime candidate by far to me. Looking further into his history just strengthened that impression. Turning an open heart surgery into a third place, two finals, a cup win and some memorable Europa performances vs Barca just strengthened that impression even further. Dealing with soap opera issues like Greenwood, Ronaldo and Sancho the way he did just atrengthened that impression more. So to me, these past five months (until new year) has decidedly teated my faith - he is not perfect or godlike at all. I am not certain he will succeed. The reasons why he should be given benefit of doubt are many (injuries, open heart surgery incomplete and dependent on other factors, un precedented amount on uncontrolleable soap operatic curve balls), but we know what happens if a guy loses a dressing room, and the United dressing room has not been a frtress of rugged strength since it flexed it’s muscles to get rid of David Moyes a decade back.

My main issue with most takes on managers I’ve seen here, is the over- and underestimation, particularily the latter, of our mnagers as if they are more than a 20% factor at best in how we will look in the end result count. Solskjær was one stray penalty and 115 counts of cheating away from a league and Europa double, fifteen games later he was deemed as out of his depth by a collective media. The truth is always in between, but in fact all our coaches past Ferguson are good coaches measured up to almost anyone even in the top five leagues. Almost no managers reproduce success at several clubs in several seasons. They are just a part of the jiggsaw, with extremely few exceptions.

But anyone saying Ten Hag has no structure or style of play, I’m out of that conversation.

Decent summation although not sure I agree with all of it, but do you really think that managers only have about 20% of the effect of whether a team succeeds or fails? That’s the only thing I vehemently disagree with, as I think there are countless examples of similar squads finding far different fortunes depending on the manager that it at the helm.

 

[DRJosh]

Decent summation although not sure I agree with all of it, but do you really think that managers only have about 20% of the effect of whether a team succeeds or fails? That’s the only thing I vehemently disagree with, as I think there are countless examples of similar squads finding far different fortunes depending on the manager that it at the helm.

I guess the manager’s influence on the team will also depend on the type of manager with some managers preferring a more central coaching role while others preferring to step back.

But to me the manager is 50% of a team’s success because they are the interface between the club hierarchy, players and fans. When things get tough, we look to the manager for steering the ship in the right direction. If he can’t elicit a response through his players or make the right tactical change then he bears half the responsibility. His job is to create a conducive environment for each player to shine.

 

[Stig]

Solskjær was one stray penalty and 115 counts of cheating away from a league and Europa double.

Just too long for a T shirt.

 

[NLunited]

Decent summation although not sure I agree with all of it, but do you really think that managers only have about 20% of the effect of whether a team succeeds or fails? That’s the only thing I vehemently disagree with, as I think there are countless examples of similar squads finding far different fortunes depending on the manager that it at the helm.

Think about it: the club structure and quality of the squad are by far the most influential. Take a few of Pep‘s best players out of Cheaty (Rodri, DeBruyne) and they probably will not finish in top two.

To be successful a club needs to have everything in order because 90% of the other teams do. Then, a manager can make the difference: making the team perform 20% better or worse is already huge. I don‘t think that number is far off.

If the manager is also trying to improve the infrastructure at the club and has to deal with numerous off field issues, that is a huge imposition that takes away from coaching the team.

Add an injury-crisis and FFP issues. We have trouble selling players because of huge wages. All these things make it very difficult to build and shape a team.

A new manager will have to deal with many of the same issues.

 

[United888]

Without getting into a debate ETH’s performance as a Manager, what is it about him that inspires such fierce loyalty from you, @BenitoSTARR and others?

Moyes was Ferguson’s handpicked successor.

van Gaal was a brilliant tactician who influenced an entire generation of Managers.

Jose at one point was the greatest Manager on the planet.

Ole was a club legend who was responsible for arguably the greatest singular moment in United’s history.

I can understand why each post-SAF era Manager has had their staunch defenders. Why is this the case with ETH?

Without getting into a debate ETH’s performance as a Manager, the post you replied actually gives you clear reason why, because the structure and ownership within this club is rotten that sets up failure to any manager. At Ajax he's done great job as manager playing the modern football way under proper structure, hence ETH deserves his chance under new structure after getting us into top 4 and won us trophy and FA Cup runner up last season.

I can go into more detail about playing style he's trying to implement, his coaching, and his man management but that will be a debate of ETH's performance.

 

[Juice Juiced]

If he gets CL, he deserve to lead club in CL. But if results start to mirror last campaign, new guys should act fast.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Without getting into a debate ETH’s performance as a Manager, what is it about him that inspires such fierce loyalty from you, @BenitoSTARR and others?

Moyes was Ferguson’s handpicked successor.

van Gaal was a brilliant tactician who influenced an entire generation of Managers.

Jose at one point was the greatest Manager on the planet.

Ole was a club legend who was responsible for arguably the greatest singular moment in United’s history.

I can understand why each post-SAF era Manager has had their staunch defenders. Why is this the case with ETH?

I’m not really loyal to Ten Hag or any United manager but I can see why it comes across that way.

My position (as brief as possible) is:

• I think he’s a very good manager with a history to show he is a good one with modern coaching skills and I can see evidence of this on the pitch.
• I think he’s dealt with very difficult dressing room issues well under the biggest scrutiny.
• I think his history with our club in his first season is evidence to suggest he can get us to win and perform and so deserves some credit in the bank.
• I think he’s been (like all United managers) held back somewhat by the Glazer structure and is about to be a part of one more akin to what an elite modern club should strive for. With a better end to the season I’d be interested to see how he works within that structure.
• I think he’s been dealt a terrible hand with injuries this season (and our recent upturn in results would suggest I may well be right that it’s the biggest impact on our team this season).
• I think he’s shown the players he’s had access to have improved particularly young players, Mainoo, Højlund and Garnacho.
• He’s not anywhere near having “his squad” so to speak. The majority of players available to him aren’t what I’d imagine he’d be delighted in having as the profiles of the squad still seem a bit Frankenstein’s monster esque.

There’s more but that’s a reasonable summary of where my head is at.

 

[gajender]

If he gets CL, he deserve to lead club in CL. But if results start to mirror last campaign, new guys should act fast.

Sorry but United need to get out of mindset of this top 4 dictating everything and should not base every decision on its qualification or lack of it .

In this case Ten Hag needs to show more than just top 4 qualification to get another season here , quality of football needs to improve while implementing sustainable and scalable Style of play which is also worthy of One of the Elite Club in football World while being equally competitive going forward .

 

[Sarni]

Think about it: the club structure and quality of the squad are by far the most influential. Take a few of Pep‘s best players out of Cheaty (Rodri, DeBruyne) and they probably will not finish in top two.

To be successful a club needs to have everything in order because 90% of the other teams do. Then, a manager can make the difference: making the team perform 20% better or worse is already huge. I don‘t think that number is far off.

If the manager is also trying to improve the infrastructure at the club and has to deal with numerous off field issues, that is a huge imposition that takes away from coaching the team.

Add an injury-crisis and FFP issues. We have trouble selling players because of huge wages. All these things make it very difficult to build and shape a team.

A new manager will have to deal with many of the same issues.

FFP issues were self inflicted though. There was no need to spend £85m on Antony, £55m on Mount and arguably even £50m on Onana. We did not particularly need players in those positions at the time.

Injuries, unpopular view but I think overplaying our key players last year by literally never resting them (like playing them in a return leg of a League Cup semifinal, having won the first game 3-0 away, vs second string Nottingham) and rushing them back from injuries on many occasions have not exactly been advantageous either. It’s also exactly the players we did that with most that have struggled more than others. Playing unfit players is probably on medical staff but fielding the same team over and over without any real need is at least partly on manager.

 

[Juice Juiced]

Sorry but United need to get out of mindset of this top 4 dictating everything and should not base every decision on its qualification or lack of it .

In this case Ten Hag needs to show more than just top 4 qualification to get another season here , quality of football needs to improve while implementing sustainable and scalable Style of play which is also worthy of One of the Elite Club in football World while being equally competitive going forward .

Imho, I think qualifications for CL was our main goal. If we get it, just give the man the ride. We are trash over a decade, what is one more year.

But I agree with you, can't argue with that.

 

[gajender]

Imho, I think qualifications for CL was our main goal. If we get it, just give the man the ride. We are trash over a decade, what is one more year.

But I agree with you, can't argue with that.

But it's just not one year though is it come Summer Ineos need to decide whether to stick or twist because Of Ten Hag's contract situation as well either it gets extented or we have lame duck Manager with year left with management unsure about him .

 

[sepulturite]

The poster you are defending just insulted another poster by saying " I'm sorry ETH slept with your wife. That was wrong of him."

Are you going to call him out on that or do you just defend ETH supporters?

Yeh I didn't see that post to be fair, that's not on either. It's ridiculous that both sides can't just have a discussion without insults.

 

[Grande]

Decent summation although not sure I agree with all of it, but do you really think that managers only have about 20% of the effect of whether a team succeeds or fails? That’s the only thing I vehemently disagree with, as I think there are countless examples of similar squads finding far different fortunes depending on the manager that it at the helm.

Yea, I think it’s about accurate guesstimation (really, what does such a number mean). I’m sure each of us can pick many examples of managers who did better than their predecessors outside of Pep and Klopp. But if you look at most manager changes and square the periods with each other (not talking about just honeymoon effects, which in itself is a result of selective memory mostly), I think you’ll find that just a few percentages give significant differences either way.

Of course you could say if you were to swap one of the roles in a club with me, tje manager post would be the decidedly worst post you could do it in, but it’s not a very realistic experiment. 20% would still indicate that the manager is by far the single biggest factor at a club, he is still one of many.

Looking at United’s post Fergie managers, you’ll find people here that stake cases for one being a very good manager destroyed by other factors (Ed, Glazers, player power, unfit squad etc etc), but the results they got were not that enormously different, and certainly not if you accept that winning ore losing one game like a final is hugely swayed by coincidences out of the managers total control (like De Gea saving none vs one of eleven penalties va Villarreal). If you look at their next stints how they did compared to their means, the difference is not huge either.

 

[Gordon Godot]

FFP issues were self inflicted though. There was no need to spend £85m on Antony, £55m on Mount and arguably even £50m on Onana. We did not particularly need players in those positions at the time.

Injuries, unpopular view but I think overplaying our key players last year by literally never resting them (like playing them in a return leg of a League Cup semifinal, having won the first game 3-0 away, vs second string Nottingham) and rushing them back from injuries on many occasions have not exactly been advantageous either. It’s also exactly the players we did that with most that have struggled more than others. Playing unfit players is probably on medical staff but fielding the same team over and over without any real need is at least partly on manager.

This is spot on. We have made awful signings for silly money on players that haven't improved us and in some cases made us worse. It was widely reported at start of this season that there was a lot of concern in the club regarding overplaying last season (think tin pot cup) and overly tough pre season as factors in injuries. The recruitment is not all on ETH but he wanted a veto and strong involvement. The whole thing is a mess but doesnt reflect well on ETH.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Without getting into a debate ETH’s performance as a Manager, what is it about him that inspires such fierce loyalty from you, @BenitoSTARR and others?

If you think that anybody who isnt gunning for ETH to be sacked are showing “fierce loyalty” to ETH you aren’t listening/understanding what they are saying.

I’ve always maintained that I’m unsure whether ETH should be sacked because I believe there’s been many mitigating issues (not just injuries) that have made appraisal of him difficult. I’ve never had a response when I post up my reasons multiple times, so I’m not posting them yet again. I see BenitoStarr posting a lot of them and he won’t get a decent response , probably the standard “every manager has issues” without any substance.

If people are honest , there really isn’t a definitive way of fairly factoring in the issues at the club and with the squad since ETH joined. I can’t think many managers at this level who have had to navigate as many dramas in such a short period of time (he’s only at the club 18 months) , so i can’t say if it’s fair to somewhat give ETH a pass for these handicapps or if what we are seeing is a reflection of ETHs limits.

If we didn’t have all those injuries , all those player dramas, the club ownership questions (that do affect stability/clarity on multiple things) , the club dysfunction that’s handicapped every manager and ETH took over a squad that had proven itself top class, I wouldn’t be arguing with those vehemently wanting ETH replaced.

But we have had all these things at the same time , so I find it hard to judge ETH like a manager at a well run club, a club that’s a proven pedigree at harnessing success and a squad of winning players with a proven record together who added to this quality squad “with 400 million in signings”. The reason these clubs can replace managers with anybody and do well is because the clubs create an environment of success and managers are there to fulfill that potential. At United we’ve been hiring managers to somehow make our dysfunctional club work.

People think they are putting high standards on what they expect from our managers when they have been expecting our managers to get better results/perfromances at a club that doesn’t and hasn’t matched the standards set at other clubs before a manager is even hired. I’m not saying our managers couldn’t do better, I’m saying our club has made it harder to do better and have been limiting our capacity to get to where we want to be which isn’t squeezing into the top 4.

Now that INEOs are making the kind of professional changes me and others have been crying out for, I believe that going forward it will be far easier to see when a manager really isn’t up to the task. A more professional run club should see less issues or issues handled quicker. Should see better hit on signings and under performing players offloaded far quicker. It should see us have more balanced squads for our managers , should see us not need rebuilds everytime we replace managers. Should see us spend less and get more for sales which means more to invest in squad.

There are other benefits to our new football infrastructure but All these things are separate to our manager and they will all improve our chances of success under any manager. That’s why im not obsessed with sacking the manager, he’s effectively managing a different club going forward and if INEOs think it can work I’m excited to see what he can do at a competent run club.

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

Without getting into a debate ETH’s performance as a Manager, what is it about him that inspires such fierce loyalty from you, @BenitoSTARR and others?

Moyes was Ferguson’s handpicked successor.

van Gaal was a brilliant tactician who influenced an entire generation of Managers.

Jose at one point was the greatest Manager on the planet.

Ole was a club legend who was responsible for arguably the greatest singular moment in United’s history.

I can understand why each post-SAF era Manager has had their staunch defenders. Why is this the case with ETH?

I grew up with Van Gaal as Ajax coach. I never liked football before but here was a guy saying ''football needs to be attractive, lots of attacking, nice play''. That Ajax of 94/95, Overmars, Blind, Litmanen and Finidi George. Just different than other clubs at that time who seemed only to rely on a big, top forward.

But I like Ten Hag for being the anti Jose. Ten Hag came in and said: United ''needs to win each and every game''.

I defend Ten Hag because the squad he has now should be the squad he started in June. Also, everyone expected the sale to be done before the new season and much more financials for big names like Kane to come in. Mainoo just got injured. I also think at times this team showed great fight, lots of agression, the most attempts and shots at a game first half vs Chelsea.

Its now 6 wins out of the last 8, 7 unbeaten and not against small teams or just small teams but Wolves away was immense. The away form in general is very good still.

I also think this squad is a top 6 squad, for all the money that was poured in. Bruno just isnt good enough to lead or be in this midfield, not complete enough. He is no Litmanen. Neither is Rashford. INEOS rightly sees imo, that any new manager really needs a good backing of a capable board, scouts, financial. ETH might have said okay to Antony buy but for 86 million? I seriously doubt it.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

If you think that anybody who isnt gunning for ETH to be sacked are showing “fierce loyalty” to ETH you aren’t listening/understanding what they are saying.

I’ve always maintained that I’m unsure whether ETH should be sacked because I believe there’s been many mitigating issues (not just injuries) that have made appraisal of him difficult. I’ve never had a response when I post up my reasons multiple times, so I’m not posting them yet again. I see BenitoStarr posting a lot of them and he won’t get a decent response , probably the standard “every manager has issues” without any substance.

If people are honest , there really isn’t a definitive way of fairly factoring in the issues at the club and with the squad since ETH joined. I can’t think many managers at this level who have had to navigate as many dramas in such a short period of time (he’s only at the club 18 months) , so i can’t say if it’s fair to somewhat give ETH a pass for these handicapps or if what we are seeing is a reflection of ETHs limits.

If we didn’t have all those injuries , all those player dramas, the club ownership questions (that do affect stability/clarity on multiple things) , the club dysfunction that’s handicapped every manager and ETH took over a squad that had proven itself top class, I wouldn’t be arguing with those vehemently wanting ETH replaced.

But we have had all these things at the same time , so I find it hard to judge ETH like a manager at a well run club, a club that’s a proven pedigree at harnessing success and a squad of winning players with a proven record together who added to this quality squad “with 400 million in signings”. The reason these clubs can replace managers with anybody and do well is because the clubs create an environment of success and managers are there to fulfill that potential. At United we’ve been hiring managers to somehow make our dysfunctional club work.

People think they are putting high standards on what they expect from our managers when they have been expecting our managers to get better results/perfromances at a club that doesn’t and hasn’t matched the standards set at other clubs before a manager is even hired. I’m not saying our managers couldn’t do better, I’m saying our club has made it harder to do better and have been limiting our capacity to get to where we want to be which isn’t squeezing into the top 4.

Now that INEOs are making the kind of professional changes me and others have been crying out for, I believe that going forward it will be far easier to see when a manager really isn’t up to the task. A more professional run club should see less issues or issues handled quicker. Should see better hit on signings and under performing players offloaded far quicker. It should see us have more balanced squads for our managers , should see us not need rebuilds everytime we replace managers. Should see us spend less and get more for sales which means more to invest in squad.

There are other benefits to our new football infrastructure but All these things are separate to our manager and they will all improve our chances of success under any manager. That’s why im not obsessed with sacking the manager, he’s effectively managing a different club going forward and if INEOs think it can work I’m excited to see what he can do at a competent run club.

Agreed. The only reason I’d consider sacking him is if I felt within all that context he was making major mistakes that were not impacted or severely compounded by the context and I can’t hand on heart say I think he’s made any sackable decisions.

He’s absolutely made mistakes and I don’t agree with everything he does but he is human.

 

[Adisa]

How long can Erik last now that SJR is on the scene?

Seen two journalists saying SJR want to move forward with him.
Think he’s pretty much guaranteed to get another year if we get top 4.

 

[horsechoker]

Seen two journalists saying SJR want to move forward with him.
Think he’s pretty much guaranteed to get another year if we get top 4.

That's true but what if we suffer a dip in form before the end of the season?

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Agreed. The only reason I’d consider sacking him is if I felt within all that context he was making major mistakes that were not impacted or severely compounded by the context and I can’t hand on heart say I think he’s made any sackable decisions.

He’s absolutely made mistakes and I don’t agree with everything he does but he is human.

Agreed.

I would add, that the margins for errors/mistakes for ETH have been far smaller becasue of the dramas/issues and therefore have been compounded and cost us more.

Pep loses Rodri and City struggle but he has confident, strong players in other positions to compensate and a league winning squad that know they can recover. Pep loses Haaland, no bother world cup winner Alvarez can step in. Pep loses De Bryune and Foden can step in. No bother for Pep with his 100mil subs. Even from a competition point of view, you dont play well at City you are dropped and sold.

Rashford loses confidence and we have no reliable, proven forwards who get goals for the first half of the season. And if we drop him we have to move other players around.

Bruno having a tough game, we struggle to create chances and no obvious replacements (Mount ? / Injured). Casemiro form collapses (or hes injured), we have to rely on Mainoo (who was injured for months). New keeper settling in, with a different defence every game, different defences during game, doesnt explain or excuse his nervy first season but it doesnt help either. We need McT to pop up with goals, not because ETH has a massive squad of options. I really dont get how people think ETH using McT the way he has and gotten all those goals out of him as anything other then great management. We concede a goal in first half of season and we dont have a reliable forward who can score and our confidence is sapped.

Theres alot more, but it really feels like there is always something stopping us from getting a good consistent run of things whereby there are no question marks. Where it is straightforward. "Do we have to have everybody fit for ETH to get us playing good football?", is a fair question, but that can be countered by asking is it not fair to judge ETH when he has had a drama/injury free period where we can see exactly what kind of football he wants to play and whether that will be effective ? The idea that "everything shouldnt have to be perfect for ETH to have us playing decent football" is one that just dismisses everything else and presumes ALL managers are navigating the same issues but ETH just cant make it work.

That could be true, but i basically view this season as one where ETH has been mostly been relentlessly firefighting which has made it hard to focus on building team cohesion. When I see City/Arsenal/Liverpool play, i see teams that have been playing these systems for years. With managers who have been able to tweak things, offload players who arent suited/good enough and have just as importantly been able to build momentum with their teams. How could ETH build momentum this season ? Seriously, last season was about stopping the rot at United, this season was supposed to be amount building some momentum, but I dont see how he could of done that. Maybe we could have a more structured pattern of play but quite often it looks like its players causing the issue and that could be down to confidence. When a team cant score goals its demoralising.

First half of season we were relying heavily on an unproven striker and a completely unsettled Rashford to get our goals. Its no surprise that the younger players (fearless) have stepped up. More established players probably knew were were in trouble this season and the weight of this pressure made it much harder for them.

I said it before, I remember the season we won the league on Cantonas return from Suspension. Think we won over half our games in the second half of the season by 1 goal (many by 1-0) with Cantona scoring most of the winners. Sometimes when you are struggling or not performing to peak levels (even for a season) you have to play "winning football" thats about results, even when there are small margins that could make your sesaon look very differantly. I feel thats kind of one way of looking at this season , where theres been elements of ETH trying to bring in his style and trying to win a game. As you said, hes made mistakes, when we are 2 up to teams (in europe or Luton for example) I felt it would of been wiser to have a more solid/defensive fallback. Perhaps he was sort of falling in the "we shouldnt be sitting back, we should be killing off a game, we are man united" kind of thinking , but I would prefer to see more clever management in these situations in the future.

Kind of makes me think of Klopp in his earlier years in pool. I always thought his biggest issue was that he didnt know "how to win ugly". There were big games Liverpool lost because the opponents used their predictable tactics againts them. I think it was the Spurs Champions league final win where I felt he finally got it. That was an ugly game and they scraped across the line. They had less possession, less passes, less attempts on target, but they ground out a win. Interestingly they conceded 17 shots on goal, so maybe we are closer to that pool team then some of us think

Is what I am saying possibly untrue ? Yep, most definitely , but I think there is more then likely at least some truth to it.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

I just want to add that I really enjoy reading over my own posts, whether they are bullsh*t or not, they are really well written . . It is nice enjoy my own company, well done me . .

 

[Adisa]

That's true but what if we suffer a dip in form before the end of the season?

No idea. I would hope their decision to go ahead with him is more than just about top four.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

That's true but what if we suffer a dip in form before the end of the season?

I would of thought if they chose to proceed with ETH (and make plans in summer), they have seen enough of him to think that this season has been an innacurate reflection of what they think he can do and this includes ETH agreeing to work with them on signings.

I think it would be unfair , in any season, to not expect us to have a dip in form at some stage. While our football hasnt been good, we havent lost a game since end of December. I would of thought it reasonable to factor in at least one dip in form, maybe two. The responses/recovery to the dips are more important.

In terms of whether we finish top 4/5, I dont know if this is the only way he keeps his job, only because I am wondeirng if INEOs are viewing this season in particular sort of as somewhat of an anomoly (which is what I believe).

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

No idea. I would hope their decision to go ahead with him is more than just about top four.

In theory, it should be.

I've said I'd sack him at the end of the season even if we get top 4.

There's been enough time to show that he's not up to the level of a title-winning manager.

We started winning lately, but these performances are still not up to par. Even vs relegation fodder teams, we simply don't play football to dominate the field and pin teams back while having waves of sustained attacks. We play end-to-end football as if it's basketball, and that has a ceiling on how good you are/can be.

 

[pcaming]

I’m not really loyal to Ten Hag or any United manager but I can see why it comes across that way.

My position (as brief as possible) is:

• I think he’s a very good manager with a history to show he is a good one with modern coaching skills and I can see evidence of this on the pitch.
• I think he’s dealt with very difficult dressing room issues well under the biggest scrutiny.
• I think his history with our club in his first season is evidence to suggest he can get us to win and perform and so deserves some credit in the bank.
• I think he’s been (like all United managers) held back somewhat by the Glazer structure and is about to be a part of one more akin to what an elite modern club should strive for. With a better end to the season I’d be interested to see how he works within that structure.
• I think he’s been dealt a terrible hand with injuries this season (and our recent upturn in results would suggest I may well be right that it’s the biggest impact on our team this season).
• I think he’s shown the players he’s had access to have improved particularly young players, Mainoo, Højlund and Garnacho.
• He’s not anywhere near having “his squad” so to speak. The majority of players available to him aren’t what I’d imagine he’d be delighted in having as the profiles of the squad still seem a bit Frankenstein’s monster esque.

There’s more but that’s a reasonable summary of where my head is at.

• He has shown at Ajax that he is a good coach. Many have done this and failed elsewhere (as he is on the path to doing).
• I don't understand why people go on about the first season, we really fell off in the new year and especially after the league cup.
• He has been backed more than any previous managers, and the football is quite frankly depressing with no real sign of upward trajectory. This is especially important to note as we do not have the funds to buy all the players he needs, which tells me next season will be the same.
• All our managers have had to deal with horrible injuries, dating back to SAF. Our medical department is crap.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Told you filthy lot, give him a run of games with most of our regulars and we'll get back to the swing of things. Still don't even have Martinez.

You are ignoring the fact the has finally stopped doing things we all wanted him to stop doing. He doesn't play Antony, he uses Varane, he tried Garnacho on the right, he stopped playing suicidal midfields.

 

[NLunited]

FFP issues were self inflicted though. There was no need to spend £85m on Antony, £55m on Mount and arguably even £50m on Onana. We did not particularly need players in those positions at the time.

Injuries, unpopular view but I think overplaying our key players last year by literally never resting them (like playing them in a return leg of a League Cup semifinal, having won the first game 3-0 away, vs second string Nottingham) and rushing them back from injuries on many occasions have not exactly been advantageous either. It’s also exactly the players we did that with most that have struggled more than others. Playing unfit players is probably on medical staff but fielding the same team over and over without any real need is at least partly on manager.

Besides from Anthony that is nonsense. DeGea was on insane wages and had to go. The FFP issue was there long before Ten Hag got here, with wages that are too high and many players with terrible resale value.

There was an investigation into the injury issues; I wonder what became of that. Maybe it is still ongoing.

 

[DJ_21]

You are ignoring the fact the has finally stopped doing things we all wanted him to stop doing. He doesn't play Antony, he uses Varane, he tried Garnacho on the right, he stopped playing suicidal midfields.

Had no choice to play suicidal midfield when we had Casemiro out. We just look much more solid with Casemiro and Mainoo. Would help if we had a number 10 that could control games though. I’d like to see Eriksen tried in the 10 with Mainoo and Casemiro behind. He’ll offer us more control. As for Antony not playing anymore, that’s down to how good Garnacho has been, if ETH tries something and it works then he’s gonna stick with it.

 

[DJ_21]

That's true but what if we suffer a dip in form before the end of the season?

Think Ratcliffe will have a big decision to make if we miss out on top 4 and we start having poor results and performances before the end of the season. At the minute he’s getting the results which will keep him in a job no matter how the performances are. If we miss out on top 4 by a couple of points then I think he may be safe. Although 5th place might be good enough this year for CL so he could get lucky. I think Spurs and Villa will drop off, Villa more so once there European campaign restarts.

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

Can I also ask the ETH critics: what kind of manager do you want in return? What do you expect of him? Is it concrete numbers he should not go over, or a gut feeling? Paying 25 million for Antony was okay but 96 million (or whatever it was) is not?

I have the feeling even if criticism is okay and sometimes even warranted, to go immediatly to the sacking option is a bit far fetched and not in touch with reality. Big projects like getting United to the top will take time, wont happen in a flash and set backs are part and parcel of any business. If ETh would lose 3 or 4 games in a row, with awful display and not a single positive point, then I could see where the wanting to sack idea comes from. At the moment he still has the or one of the most succesful win rates of any previous United manager and I think you should be careful what you wish for to change.

 

[Sarni]

Besides from Anthony that is nonsense. DeGea was on insane wages and had to go. The FFP issue was there long before Ten Hag got here, with wages that are too high and many players with terrible resale value.

There was an investigation into the injury issues; I wonder what became of that. Maybe it is still ongoing.

It still did not prevent us from spending north of £400m in two years. Can't really blame FFP when we were able to outspend everyone bar Chelsea over that period. We just spent it on wrong players again.

There were cheaper options than Onana even if we wanted to replace De Gea (whom we could have probably also re-signed on smaller wages seeing as he doesn't seem to be in demand anyway).

 

[Adamsk7]

Thing I like is he seems to learn and makes big calls (like finally realising his £80m man ain’t good enough) even if it means he loses face. The players despite all the uproar seem to still be playing for him and he’s turned the results around in recent weeks. Now we seemingly have an improved structure and hierarchy, I hope he can benefit from it.
He certainly needs another season IMO and has shown enough to warrant one. Good overall first season, still in the mix this despite a bad start and injuries. We have to understand how shoddily run we have been from all areas. ETH hasn’t helped himself at times but I absolutely understand his insistence on getting in players he knows when it’s easy to see how there is no cohesion above him OR any team unity.