Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[BenitoSTARR]

Literally it takes two seconds to go back and look at what was posted in @BenitoSTARR thread as far as our injury availability to see that actual statistics instead of just saying “X player was out for a long time”. Hence why I boiled it down Licha and the LB’s because there’s no denying both have been unavailable for selection far more than anyone else.

But regardless because you and I are quite clearly on far opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to ETH’s prospects/what he’s done so far and I don’t feel like going through it, I’ll instead ask: What/where do you expect us to be next year if ETH is given yet another summer with INEOS? Because by any conventional wisdom there should be huge improvement in both results and performances in a managers 3rd season with a club especially given the financial outlay. And this is where we differ, because I don’t see another summer where even if we buy and sell well, will change the outlook and have us competing with Arsenal and Liverpool and going toe to toe given the evidence I’ve seen so far. Hence why I want him gone, because I don’t feel like wasting more money on a managers project that doesn’t seem to have a ceiling past top 4 challengers.

I feel as a club we’ve become far too willing to give both managers and players “time” instead of being able to see the future outlook isn’t worth it and cutting bait sooner rather than later. It’s one of the (many) reasons we’ve degraded post SAF.

I’m glad everyone from all sides of the in out debate is using that info to have a more fair appreciation for our injuries.

When you say a huge improvement is expected what does that look like?

If we finish behind City, Arsenal and Liverpool but closed the gap and got 4th would that be progress?

For me I’d see that with progress and depending on personnel we might be ready for a title challenge the following season so:

2023/4 - 5th
2024/5 - 4th
2026/6 - reasonable go at a title.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Haven't seen the post but it's very clear that Casemiro, Kobbie, Licha and Shaw have been immense misses for the first team.

Next summer might not have Ashworth fully in place & is a massive sell driven summer with us reportedly targeting opportunistic signings. Not exactly the "lets throw £100m at Rice" window. That being said if the right signings are made I certainly expect us to bridge the gap with Arsenal or Liverpool.

I also don't think there's a single manager out there who is available with the proven chops to do better. We can meet again after the next 5ish games and take a look at what tally Ten Hag is on course to finish on. I don't think many managers would do better than that with the cards he was dealt.

Personally I don’t WANT a “100m on Rice” type signing as I don’t think the team overall is best constructed to maximize a signing like that (much like Kane last summer). I can only hope we sell as much as I want us to, because there are a ton of players that can be cleared out without losing much overall quality or struggling to replace themWould much prefer younger profiles to bring in and grow with the likes of Mainoo, Højlund, Garnacho etc.

As far as managers elsewhere go, this is where the people we’ve brought in make their salary. You might not think there’s a better option out there, but I personally don’t think 6th place with 0GD and bottom of the UCL group with poor underlying statistics is impossible to top for another manager regardless of the situation. Now do I have an immediate ready list? Nope, Alonso was my clear first choice but Klopp leaving has pretty much fecked that option. So we’ll see on that front.

Agree on revisiting in month.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I’m glad everyone from all sides of the in out debate is using that info to have a more fair appreciation for our injuries.

When you say a huge improvement is expected what does that look like?

If we finish behind City, Arsenal and Liverpool but closed the gap and got 4th would that be progress?

Huge improvement looks like going toe to toe with Arsenal and Liverpool head to head, having a MUCH better GD than what we’ve had in the previous two seasons, and having better underlying statistics to go along with surface level results. If we happen to finish 4th just behind those 2 that’s fine I’m not too fussed if the other criteria were met. But if we came out and were clearly not on the same level as those above us and just limped into 4th above Spurs or some shit it would have been a wasted season in my opinion, because keeping Ten Hag for a 4th season after would be pointless.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Huge improvement looks like going toe to toe with Arsenal and Liverpool head to head, having a MUCH better GD than what we’ve had in the previous two seasons, and having better underlying statistics to go along with surface level results. If we happen to finish 4th just behind those 2 that’s fine I’m not too fussed if the other criteria were met. But if we came out and were clearly not on the same level as those above us and just limped into 4th above Spurs or some shit it would have been a wasted season in my opinion, because keeping Ten Hag for a 4th season after would be pointless.

I’d say that how close we come to Arsenal and Liverpool would be down to recruitment but yeah I’d broadly agree that’s a realistic and sensible view of clear progress next season.

 

[VP89]

Personally I don’t WANT a “100m on Rice” type signing as I don’t think the team overall is best constructed to maximize a signing like that (much like Kane last summer). I can only hope we sell as much as I want us to, because there are a ton of players that can be cleared out without losing much overall quality or struggling to replace themWould much prefer younger profiles to bring in and grow with the likes of Mainoo, Højlund, Garnacho etc.

As far as managers elsewhere go, this is where the people we’ve brought in make their salary. You might not think there’s a better option out there, but I personally don’t think 6th place with 0GD and bottom of the UCL group with poor underlying statistics is impossible to top for another manager regardless of the situation. Now do I have an immediate ready list? Nope, Alonso was my clear first choice but Klopp leaving has pretty much fecked that option. So we’ll see on that front.

Agree on revisiting in month.

The point with the 100m on Rice is that Arsenal were in a position to be able to make those moves because they had fixed their flaws in their team over a period of 4 years. You seem to be annoyed that we can't do as much in 2, without fully appreciating the context around it which I've already addressed.

I don't think a 0GD should be hugely surprising at this point given we have a striker who is essentially a project and made a decision to be patient and go for youth instead (again, for FFP reasons). And you're looking at point in time data, what if we finish 4th with a +10-15 GD?


Finally regarding your point about having people paid to make these decisions - it's a bit of a cop out answer. I'm not asking you to find the next big star from South America. I'm asking you to point to a manager capable of taking the United job with a better degree of success, and if the common supporter hasn't heard their name they are effectively a punt.

 

[DSG]

What if we get 5th and the extra CL spot?

It’s not a done deal that the PL will get enough coefficient points to place in the top two. Only City and Arsenal are left in the CL and we won’t have any coefficient points from Europa this month. We’re currently 3rd behind Italy and Germany.

 

[VP89]

It’s not a done deal that the PL will get enough coefficient points to place in the top two. Only City and Arsenal are left in the CL and we won’t have any coefficient points from Europa this month. We’re currently 3rd behind Italy and Germany.

What do you mean about the Europa point? Teams progressing in Europa still make some impact to the rankings.

 

[Member 58925]

You can't blame the Glazers for the majority of the other guys post regarding tactics and style of play. That is on EtH. Fergie managed, LVG managed, Jose managed and Ole even managed. At least with those manages you saw a plan and identity. If the players were not good enough, granted, but with EtH it's week in week out chaos.

You can blame them for standing in the way of the departure of players that don't fit what the manager is trying to do. You can blame them for standing in the way of the departure of players that did not want to stay. How far did LVG, Jose and Ole take their "established" tactics and style of play again? Oh that's right they got sacked. Jose, Ole and now Ten Hag are suffering the consequences of not being able to set a stringent enough standard of what is demanded of players at this club, and that is 100% because of the owners. If you can't identify tactics and style of play, that's on you.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

The point with the 100m on Rice is that Arsenal were in a position to be able to make those moves because they had fixed their flaws in their team over a period of 4 years. You seem to be annoyed that we can't do as much in 2, without fully appreciating the context around it which I've already addressed.

I don't think a 0GD should be hugely surprising at this point given we have a striker who is essentially a project and made a decision to be patient and go for youth instead (again, for FFP reasons). And you're looking at point in time data, what if we finish 4th with a +10-15 GD?


Finally regarding your point about having people paid to make these decisions - it's a bit of a cop out answer. I'm not asking you to find the next big star from South America. I'm asking you to point to a manager capable of taking the United job with a better degree of success, and if the common supporter hasn't heard their name they are effectively a punt.

I mean aren’t most manager hirings, apart from the biggest names, “punts”? There’s no such thing as guaranteed success with the majority of names so what you’re asking for is also a cop out as you know there won’t be a sufficient answer for the criteria you’ve laid out. But my point is just because there isn’t an obvious Klopp/Pep like name out here to bring in, doesn’t mean the right guy straight up doesn’t exist that can’t immediately better Ten Hag.

Citing our striker doesn’t make much sense either considering he’s our leading scorer and gets less created for him than majority of strikers in the entire league. It’s not like we’ve been putting on a plate all season and just watching him skew chances every weekend. But sure if we finish 4th with a 10-15 +GD then my prospects of the future certainly will have improved, although you and I already agreed either way to revisit our performances in a month.

And I think Arsenal tends to be the outlier of success rather than the clear answer, and even in that case Arteta sensibly pushed out almost every veteran name that had been there during the recent failing years and built the squad extremely young. Ten Hag hasn’t really done that, at least not clearing out to the extent that Arteta did to where you could then say “he’s working with a squad of kids so you have to give it time”.

 

[DSG]

Why can’t we reopen the poll?

 

[Gordon Godot]

You can blame them for standing in the way of the departure of players that don't fit what the manager is trying to do. You can blame them for standing in the way of the departure of players that did not want to stay. How far did LVG, Jose and Ole take their "established" tactics and style of play again? Oh that's right they got sacked. Jose, Ole and now Ten Hag are suffering the consequences of not being able to set a stringent enough standard of what is demanded of players at this club, and that is 100% because of the owners. If you can't identify tactics and style of play, that's on you.

You've lost me. Its not complicated. Jose and Ole should never have been anywhere near the club. Jose is toxic and always leaves in chaos. Ole had no top flight experience and was woefully unqualified. ETH is supposed to be a top coach with some great philosophy, so where is it? As always its now back to the players, not the manager. And there are no great tactics from ETH, to pretend otherwise is a lie.

 

[Member 58925]

You've lost me. Its not complicated. Jose and Ole should never have been anywhere near the club. Jose is toxic and always leaves in chaos. Ole had no top flight experience and was woefully unqualified. ETH is supposed to be a top coach with some great philosophy, so where is it? As always its now back to the players, not the manager. And there are no great tactics from ETH, to pretend otherwise is a lie.

Learn the game, then come back and bore me with accusations of lying.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I’d say that how close we come to Arsenal and Liverpool would be down to recruitment but yeah I’d broadly agree that’s a realistic and sensible view of clear progress next season.

Sure, but that’s sort of implied. If we buy a bunch of Antony level signings (especially after sweeping changes to the decision makers) then we have bigger problems than just closing the gap to Arsenal

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I mean aren’t most manager hirings, apart from the biggest names, “punts”? There’s no such thing as guaranteed success with the majority of names so what you’re asking for is also a cop out as you know there won’t be a sufficient answer for the criteria you’ve laid out. But my point is just because there isn’t an obvious Klopp/Pep like name out here to bring in, doesn’t mean the right guy straight up doesn’t exist that can’t immediately better Ten Hag.

And I think Arsenal tends to be the outlier of success rather than the clear answer, and even in that case Arteta sensibly pushed out almost every veteran name that had been there during the recent failing years and built the squad extremely young. Ten Hag hasn’t really done that, at least not clearing out to the extent that Arteta did to where you could then say “he’s working with a squad of kids so you have to give it time”.

But that’s not necessarily through choice. In an ideal world I don’t think Ten Hag would have kept many of the players currently in the squad.

It’s the only major issue I think I have with your position is maybe less appreciation for how shit our footballing structure has been compared to others.

The Glazers haven’t exactly had people who view players as footballers more as assets.

With INEOS hopefully that is eradicated as soon as possible and we focus on the primary purpose of a football club. To win football games.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Sure, but that’s sort of implied. If we buy a bunch of Antony level signings (especially after sweeping changes to the decision makers) then we have bigger problems than just closing the gap to Arsenal

Yeah fair enough.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Both Arsenal and Liverpool had semi-functional structures in place.

I don’t think oppo fans truly understand how abysmally poor the glazers are at owning/running a football club or how much damage they have done to us in their time as owners.

Ineos may only have 25% for now, but it seems clear that they do actually have some control over the footballing side of the business.

With them remedying some of the structural inadequacies caused and allowed to fester by the Glazers i expect the next decade to look far more positive.

I suspect every manager we have had in the last decade would have faired better in the circumstances/environment that we finally seem to be building and ETH deserves a shot under that structure, he has done as well as anyone without it.

Honestly though, everyone needs to understand that the Glazers are quite possibly the worst and most toxic owners in sport history, i suspect when Mourinho claimed getting second with us was his greatest achievement, he meant it!

So true, its like having a shit rich parent. Everyone on the outside cant understand why you hate them because all they see is the flashy cars and big house.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

But that’s not necessarily through choice. In an ideal world I don’t think Ten Hag would have kept many of the players currently in the squad.

It’s the only major issue I think I have with your position is maybe less appreciation for how shit our footballing structure has been compared to others.

The Glazers haven’t exactly had people who view players as footballers more as assets.

With INEOS hopefully that is eradicated as soon as possible and we focus on the primary purpose of a football club. To win football games.

Fair enough, was more meant as a point to contrast our current “rebuild/progress” compared to the Arsenal/Arteta one that everyone cites as an example of trusting the process, as opposed to shitting on ETH for not fire off much of the squad

 

[VP89]

I mean aren’t most manager hirings, apart from the biggest names, “punts”? There’s no such thing as guaranteed success with the majority of names so what you’re asking for is also a cop out as you know there won’t be a sufficient answer for the criteria you’ve laid out. But my point is just because there isn’t an obvious Klopp/Pep like name out here to bring in, doesn’t mean the right guy straight up doesn’t exist that can’t immediately better Ten Hag.

Citing our striker doesn’t make much sense either considering he’s our leading scorer and gets less created for him than majority of strikers in the entire league. It’s not like we’ve been putting on a plate all season and just watching him skew chances every weekend. But sure if we finish 4th with a 10-15 +GD then my prospects of the future certainly will have improved, although you and I already agreed either way to revisit our performances in a month.

And I think Arsenal tends to be the outlier of success rather than the clear answer, and even in that case Arteta sensibly pushed out almost every veteran name that had been there during the recent failing years and built the squad extremely young. Ten Hag hasn’t really done that, at least not clearing out to the extent that Arteta did to where you could then say “he’s working with a squad of kids so you have to give it time”.

They are not punts if you are sure beyond reasonable doubt that they are improvements on their predecessor. If we bring in a name to replace Ten Hag who no one has heard of, likely because they haven't won anything meaningful or been in big European competitions, it would just be a punt. That's why I asked for your view on who would replace him that we'd be sure can do better.


I think citing our striker of course is necessary - he is a project player and as such needed a lot of time to adapt to the league, build his own chemistry and so on. Due to FFP it was decided we'd only go for him and not overlay with any experienced striker (didn't have to be Kane), and as such there needs to be some consideration in a slow start. He needs to get used to the league & the players and also vice versa. Now we look a lot more attacking (Kobbie Mainoo's composure helps here too, with Casemiro because Bruno doesn't have to sit in the 8 as much). I wouldn't be surprised to see our GD tick higher and higher in the coming games, bar City.

Ten Hag has only had 2 summer windows at the club, working essentially under clowns. The head scouts were sacked off too. I don't think its fair to point to what Arteta built with a young squad and then use that against Ten Hag.

Anyway, lets revisit in a month and see where we are at.

 

[RuudTom83]

The development of Hojlund, Garnacho and Mainoo has to be the most pleasing aspect of this season by far.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

They are not punts if you are sure beyond reasonable doubt that they are improvements on their predecessor. If we bring in a name to replace Ten Hag who no one has heard of, likely because they haven't won anything meaningful or been in big European competitions, it would just be a punt. That's why I asked for your view on who would replace him that we'd be sure can do better.


I think citing our striker of course is necessary - he is a project player and as such needed a lot of time to adapt to the league, build his own chemistry and so on. Due to FFP it was decided we'd only go for him and not overlay with any experienced striker (didn't have to be Kane), and as such there needs to be some consideration in a slow start.

Ten Hag has only had 2 summer windows at the club, working essentially under clowns. The head scouts were sacked off too. I don't think its fair to point to what Arteta built with a young squad and then use that against Ten Hag.

Anyway, lets revisit in a month and see where we are at.

Hey, I hope I’m dead wrong and we rip teams apart for the next month and everything really starts to click throughout the 90 minutes. Would be glad to look like an ass after revisiting

 

[Gordon Godot]

Learn the game, then come back and bore me with accusations of lying.

Get over yourself matey. You are talking absolute sh@te. Your the one telling people they cant see stuff. Our tactics are beyond basic. Moron

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Fair enough, was more meant as a point to contrast our current “rebuild/progress” compared to the Arsenal/Arteta one that everyone cites as an example of trusting the process, as opposed to shitting on ETH for not fire off much of the squad

Ah no worries then get where you’re coming from just the way it was worded came across a bit more like the latter than you intended.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

The development of Hojlund, Garnacho and Mainoo has to be the most pleasing aspect of this season by far.

Without a doubt. Garnacho especially has surprised me with his improvement, his technical side has clearly gone up a level in the past year (touch, press resistance, weak foot, passing weight all much better). I was always confident Mainoo would be good and Hojlund always seemed like a high ceiling player as well, but Garnacho looks to have more in him than just “young winger that just takes on fullbacks repeatedly good or bad”.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Get over yourself matey. You are talking absolute sh@te. Your the one telling people they cant see stuff. Our tactics are beyond basic. Moron

I’ve PM’d you

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Without a doubt. Garnacho especially has surprised me with his improvement, his technical side has clearly gone up a level in the past year (touch, press resistance, weak foot, passing weight all much better). I was always confident Mainoo would be good and Hojlund always seemed like a high ceiling player as well, but Garnacho looks to have more in him than just “young winger that just takes on fullbacks repeatedly good or bad”.

Moving him to RW I think could be the making of him. He’s forced to think about more than just driving at goal and I think his passing and link up play is much better on the right. Purely anecdotal of course.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Moving him to RW I think could be the making of him. He’s forced to think about more than just driving at goal and I think his passing and link up play is much better on the right. Purely anecdotal of course.

Nope I've noticed the same thing, it instinctually forces him to assess more options than just "cut onto my strong foot and look to shoot" and his left is still more than good enough to still provide a scoring threat if he needs to use it. Basically what I've always hoped Rashford would develop but he never did (even on the right you see him just favor his strong side to try to get a shot across goal which is why it was never worth trying him there as opposed to the left)

 

[sepulturite]

Get over yourself matey. You are talking absolute sh@te. Your the one telling people they cant see stuff. Our tactics are beyond basic. Moron

It just shows what your like as a poster that you had to resort to insults.

 

[mu4c_20le]

It just shows what your like as a poster that you had to resort to insults.

If you can't understand the context of the conversation, that's on you.

 

[sepulturite]

If you can't understand the context of the conversation, that's on you.

What's the context of the conversation got to do with it? He called the poster a moron, there's no need for that. If you can't discuss a topic as simple as the manager of the club without insulting each other then you shouldn't be on a discussion board.

 

[VP89]

Hey, I hope I’m dead wrong and we rip teams apart for the next month and everything really starts to click throughout the 90 minutes. Would be glad to look like an ass after revisiting

Yeah, it's still guesswork from us supporters. Our manager has a good run of fixtures ahead, City game aside. There's little reason not to continue his momentum.

 

[mu4c_20le]

What's the context of the conversation got to do with it? He called the poster a moron, there's no need for that. If you can't discuss a topic as simple as the manager of the club without insulting each other then you shouldn't be on a discussion board.

There wasn't a discussion though. The other poster said learn the game, then come back, which is pretty much an insult in itself, or a provocation.

 

[VP89]

If you can't understand the context of the conversation, that's on you.

His fault for starting a fight with "dontmesswithme24"! He was warned!

 

[sepulturite]

There wasn't a discussion though. The other poster said learn the game, then come back, which is pretty much an insult in itself, or a provocation.

No it wasn't no matter what side of the fence you fall on when it comes to the manager debate you just shouldn't be insulting the other poster by calling him names, I'm sure the mods would agree.

 

[McTerminator]

So true, its like having a shit rich parent. Everyone on the outside cant understand why you hate them because all they see is the flashy cars and big house.

Love the analogy and so true as well!

 

[mu4c_20le]

His fault for starting a fight with "dontmesswithme24"! He was warned!

 

[royboy16]

The development of Hojlund, Garnacho and Mainoo has to be the most pleasing aspect of this season by far.

Yup they're doing great under ETH.

 

[astracrazy]

You can blame them for standing in the way of the departure of players that don't fit what the manager is trying to do. You can blame them for standing in the way of the departure of players that did not want to stay. How far did LVG, Jose and Ole take their "established" tactics and style of play again? Oh that's right they got sacked. Jose, Ole and now Ten Hag are suffering the consequences of not being able to set a stringent enough standard of what is demanded of players at this club, and that is 100% because of the owners. If you can't identify tactics and style of play, that's on you.

What a load of nonsense.

 

[Member 58925]

What a load of nonsense.

I'm sorry ETH slept with your wife. That was wrong of him.

 

[Waynne]

ETH sleeping with other peoples wives. Posters name calling. Glowing praise for Nacho and Hojlund. This last page has all the drama.

 

[horsechoker]

How long can Erik last now that SJR is on the scene?