Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[LDUred]

There was a period after they scored where Chong was regularly picking up the ball in the space between midfield and defence, turning and running at our back four. Those are runs that a DM is there to pick up, but we are effectively playing with two 8s.

This is what people mean when they say that we're too easy too attack. Ball carrying midfielders get a lot of freedom against us because we have so much attackable space between midfield and defence.

Neither Casemiro nor Mainoo (for all his brilliance) are providing a genuine screen in front of the back four. When we played with Carrick and Scholes, it was clear who would do what; Carrick's anticipation and reading of the game was exceptional. Casemiro doesn't have the legs for that role, and Mainoo is naturally playing further forward.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Another problem ten Hag has is he can't drop players for stupid decisions on the pitch because most of our back ups aren't good enough. I'd drop Casemiro for nearly getting sent off and randomly trying to score from his own half thus turning over the ball.



But who else can we put there that isn't a big drop off in quality?

Our backs up at LB are a drastic decrease in quality to compared to Shaw. We shouldn't have needed to rush him back.

This isnt just a ETH problem, if you look at United over the last 10 years theres been at times a good first team but a significant drop in quality when players are injured or in poor form. There is alot to be said for competition for places. At City if you dont perform there is a quality player in every position to replace you and you know you will be dropped. City also are far quicker to offload players who arent working out or meeting the top grade. Easier for Pep to say "you are benched" to any player and they can sulk and the city team wont be affected. Pep doesnt have to rely on bringing on Scott McTominey or Weghorst or Fellaini or Ighalo (all to get us goals), the embarrasing list goes on and on and yet some fans are talking about challanging for top honors....

This is a huge problem and you can add Rashford to that. I am not gonna bash him as he seems to having some serious issues of some sort, but he doesnt start for a City/Liverpool/Arsenal side with the kind of form he has been showing but there has been such problems up front and such poor form ETH just hasnt been able to take him out. I think on a performance level, especially as Rashford was so important last season, that he needs to be added to the Greenwood, Sancho, Ronaldo, Anthony list from a point of view that its another important player who has let us down and it doesnt really look like its a manager problem.

I mean Hoijland has had to basically suck up all that pressure and learn on the job to play for United and in the EPL becasue we have no alternative striker.

When you really think of all the sh*te ETH is having to navigate, its just mad.

 

[mav_9me]

How can his recruitment be said to be shockingly bad?

Do most of his signings not look decent!

Definitely not shockingly bad. Half and half. However Antony is a huge huge red flag cuz he is a player he worked with for 2 yrs and yet chose to get him as first choice RW (irrespective of the price). That one signing raises lots of questions about his talent identification.

Having said all that, I wouldn't blame or credit him too much, cuz ultimately it shouldn't be on him to find players. That should be a club thing, which is where we failed him so far.

 

[mav_9me]

Liverpool scored 7 that day from an xG of 2.8, so quite clearly on a normal day it would have been a 3-0/4-0. I'm not actually sure it makes much of a difference though.

The issues that led to that loss are still here and will inevitably lead to more spankings. It may not be 7-0 because not many teams actually try past 3rd/4th goal, e.g. City could have easily scored more against us at Old Trafford this year but didn't bother coming out of 2nd gear after they got their second goal, or sometimes you will just come across a team that's extremely wasteful like Villa were last week or Newcastle were the last two times we went to St James Park.

If you expose yourself to 18-20 shots a game, inevitably you will be spanked every now and then.

There has been a visible improvement in our offensive play though which has to be said. We are still appalling in midfield and possibly the worst team in the league at controlling the game, but we have got much better at creating over the last 4-5 weeks, largely down to Garnacho/Hojlund. Also, the way we create chances out of nowhere now makes it likely that we will win quite a few games against the run of play, though I'm not sure as a United fan you want to be winning too many games in that fashion. A couple of times per season, maybe.

Great balance post. As you can see you can want ETH out for not being good enough but also have a balanced view. Not just Pep Guardiola is my idol nonsense

 

[Gordon Godot]

There was a period after they scored where Chong was regularly picking up the ball in the space between midfield and defence, turning and running at our back four. Those are runs that a DM is there to pick up, but we are effectively playing with two 8s.

This is what people mean when they say that we're too easy too attack. Ball carrying midfielders get a lot of freedom against us because we have so much attackable space between midfield and defence.

Neither Casemiro nor Mainoo (for all his brilliance) are providing a genuine screen in front of the back four. When we played with Carrick and Scholes, it was clear who would do what; Carrick's anticipation and reading of the game was exceptional. Casemiro doesn't have the legs for that role, and Mainoo is naturally playing further forward.

But Mainoo regularly is positioned 10-15 yards ahead of Casimero, I assume this is the famed 'single pivot'. When ETH made changes we than had Mainoo holding and McT played further up nearer Bruno. we don't play two holding players. But its why we are always so open

 

[NLunited]

Its not, this is a silly post. No one is going to win the league playing like we did yesterday with the standards of the top teams these days. The game has moved on, the top teams will destroy you if cannot retain possession. Posts like this are embarrassing and why the debate becomes so polarized between the ETH in or out. We are miles away from the necessary standards, how anyone can watch the match yesterday and see that is beyond me. What does putting stuff in capitals mean? Our whole structure, tactics and coaching seem to be awful. It cannot always be about 'mentality', just another excuse for the manager. The question is why we cannot defend basic crosses and why we cant take the sting out of match when we are 2-0 up. It was exactly the same when we went ahead against Villa. Of course, a lot of that comes back to coaching, team shape and inability to retain the ball. Honestly, go away and watch some football and then post something more sensible.

You are supposed to go make your own thread, where you can moan after we win another game all you want.

You can have the best tactics: if the players can‘t make the right decisions during developments in the game, it won‘t make us more composed.

We definitely have mentality issues.

 

[Toshey]

if we had scored our 3 open goal chances, the game is 5-1 to us and this thread is much quieter.
We are doing well, let's keep it going.

I'm sure if we lose to City, many people will spam refresh here and take out everything they've been hiding inside so far. Fingers crossed, must have been difficult year so far...

 

[Robbie Boy]

It is very unlikely that he will go anywhere before May 2025 IMO. He's as safe as it gets, regardless of results. Even if we fail to finish top 5 this year and struggle at the start of next season, I think we will persist with him.

May 2025

I doubt any manager in world football has a guaranteed job until then, let alone ETH. Plenty were full sure he wouldn't last the season but seem to be grasping the reality that he likely will. If he makes it until May 2025, it means that next season will have gone well. So here's to hoping that's the case.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

Its not, this is a silly post. No one is going to win the league playing like we did yesterday with the standards of the top teams these days. The game has moved on, the top teams will destroy you if cannot retain possession. Posts like this are embarrassing and why the debate becomes so polarized between the ETH in or out. We are miles away from the necessary standards, how anyone can watch the match yesterday and see that is beyond me. What does putting stuff in capitals mean? Our whole structure, tactics and coaching seem to be awful. It cannot always be about 'mentality', just another excuse for the manager. The question is why we cannot defend basic crosses and why we cant take the sting out of match when we are 2-0 up. It was exactly the same when we went ahead against Villa. Of course, a lot of that comes back to coaching, team shape and inability to retain the ball. Honestly, go away and watch some football and then post something more sensible.

You could always acquire the knowledge it takes to understand that most of our problems are as a result of lack of work ethic and discipline. Do you not understand how important that is when you want to press high and retain the ball in the toughest league in football he world? Do you think the manger is telling the players to stay on their heels and do feck all without the ball? You’re the one that needs a clue here.

 

[Wolfbot]

if we had scored our 3 open goal chances, the game is 5-1 to us and this thread is much quieter.
We are doing well, let's keep it going.

I'm sure if we lose to City, many people will spam refresh here and take out everything they've been hiding inside so far. Fingers crossed, must have been difficult year so far...

The game against City should be a marker of whether we've genuinely improved or not.

I personally feel we've been a bit fortunate in getting positive results playing large portions of the game without the ball, while conceding a lot of shots and possession to teams that really shouldn't be doing that to us given the players we have.

If we don't get hammered and carry a threat ourselves then fair enough, there might be something in our approach. If we get demolished or fail to lay a glove on them it probably shows we've been a bit lucky overall in recent weeks.

 

[Sarni]

if we had scored our 3 open goal chances, the game is 5-1 to us and this thread is much quieter.
We are doing well, let's keep it going.

I'm sure if we lose to City, many people will spam refresh here and take out everything they've been hiding inside so far. Fingers crossed, must have been difficult year so far...

There has been a lot of valid criticism on here despite results, while also recognizing the improvement where it’s notable (chance creation).

I don’t think anyone will be expecting a win at City but that game will be a good test. We should at least be competitive as they’ve hardly been smashing teams even during their recent run.

 

[Sarni]

May 2025

I doubt any manager in world football has a guaranteed job until then, let alone ETH. Plenty were full sure he wouldn't last the season but seem to be grasping the reality that he likely will. If he makes it until May 2025, it means that next season will have gone well. So here's to hoping that's the case.

I am perhaps a bit skeptical about the whole ‘new United’. I expect us to still be as slow and delusional as we have been for years.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I am perhaps a bit skeptical about the whole ‘new United’. I expect us to still be as slow and delusional as we have been for years.

Even our old selves would sack an underperforming manager in his 3rd season.

 

[cyberman]

There’s a large gulf between a “good” record and an abysmal one like we have. And citing Pep as an example really isn’t the best choice

By my count they’ve won 2 games away from home against the top 7/8 sides (whatever it is) over the last 18 months and one being against us this season when we were a mess. Not only that but it’s getting worse for them this season since it seems they can’t even win agains the big teams at The Etihad as well for whatever reason.
As we stand, there’s a couple of games left, Liverpool have only beaten Newcastle away out of the top 8 this season.
I don’t think Arsenal have beaten anybody else this year?
Everybody has a terrible record away v the top sides, it’s nothing special for United. We’re only a couple of wins away from having one of the best records funnily enough. In fact if Wolves win another game or two that shoots them up the table we’d be up there by default

 

[BoulderDevil]

It's really simple. If you want to win trophies you have to control the ball the majority of the time.

No stats can get us away from that or somehow get us around it.

ETH will know this and to be fair its not like he's got lots of options to improve it.

That’s an objectively untrue statement. Look no further than the 2021 and 2022 CL final. I mean, do people actually read what they write before posting?

 

[always_hoping]

That’s an objectively untrue statement. Look no further than the 2021 and 2022 CL final. I mean, do people actually read what they write before posting?

Peak Jose won the majority of his trophies by controlling games without the ball. He regularly won game with 40% or less possession.

 

[Powderfinger]

Either by his tactical setup or his player recruitment, Ten Hag just hasn't shown any sign of having the vision to create a dominant team capable of winning the PL. You can quibble about whether its the managers, the players, or maybe the influence of data and video analytics. But the basic reality is that the standard for winning the league is really high right now. In the first 21 years of the PL, only three times did the winner have >90 points and 8 times 85 or less. In the seven seasons since 2016-17, the winner has gone over 90 five times and never less than 86.

The only way to win the league is to create a team that consistently controls and dominates games. A side that is capable of bossing all kinds of opponents - high press, low block, big teams, quick athletic teams, home, away, etc - so that game after game after game after game your side creates loads of chances (and can dial that number up when necessary) and doesn't give the other side much of a sniff. That's what Pep was able to perfect, what Klopp was able to recreate in his own style, and what Arteta has come closest among other managers to doing.

With both Klopp and Arteta, you could see the football they wanted to play about 12 months into their tenures in the job. It didn't necessarily work well or translate smoothly into results, because they didn't have the players yet. But you could see more or less what they wanted to do. 24 months into both of their tenures it was pretty obvious exactly what kind of dominating possession-based football they wanted to play. And then 36 months into their tenures their teams were really good and challenging for the league (both came short in that year, but they at least gave City a run).

Ten Hag is about 20 months into his tenure at United. I don't see a plan for creating a dominant team at all. The team can't control matches in possession, the technical level isn't high enough and the movement and rotation among players doesn't seem well drilled in the same way it developed for those other clubs. And when United lose the ball high up the pitch, they don't have players in position to win it back at the frequency of those other sides - in both attack and defense the team isn't compact enough and doesn't spring from compactness to attacking space in the same way as the others. Largely Ten Hag's plan seems to be to get into chaotic, stretched end-to-end games against weaker sides and hope that United's superior attacking talent will make the difference in matches where both sides have plenty of chances, then play a low block and hope for a few counter-attacking opportunities against strong sides. Its a reasonable approach if the goal is maybe scraping top four but its a not a platform for building a dominant team. Ten Hag has also spent slightly more money on transfer fees in his first 20 months than Klopp or Arteta had spent by the 36 month mark.

Unless something major changes this spring, I don't see why you would go past 24 months with this manager. The worst thing would be making the decision based on whether United manage to scrape top 4/5 rather than based on an assessment of how likely Ten Hag is to take United to the very top of the game again.

 

[McTerminator]

Either by his tactical setup or his player recruitment, Ten Hag just hasn't shown any sign of having the vision to create a dominant team capable of winning the PL. You can quibble about whether its the managers, the players, or maybe the influence of data and video analytics. But the basic reality is that the standard for winning the league is really high right now. In the first 21 years of the PL, only three times did the winner have >90 points and 8 times 85 or less. In the seven seasons since 2016-17, the winner has gone over 90 five times and never less than 86.

The only way to win the league is to create a team that consistently controls and dominates games. A side that is capable of bossing all kinds of opponents - high press, low block, big teams, quick athletic teams, home, away, etc - so that game after game after game after game your side creates loads of chances (and can dial that number up when necessary) and doesn't give the other side much of a sniff. That's what Pep was able to perfect, what Klopp was able to recreate in his own style, and what Arteta has come closest among other managers to doing.

With both Klopp and Arteta, you could see the football they wanted to play about 12 months into their tenures in the job. It didn't necessarily work well or translate smoothly into results, because they didn't have the players yet. But you could see more or less what they wanted to do. 24 months into both of their tenures it was pretty obvious exactly what kind of dominating possession-based football they wanted to play. And then 36 months into their tenures their teams were really good and challenging for the league (both came short in that year, but they at least gave City a run).

Ten Hag is about 20 months into his tenure at United. I don't see a plan for creating a dominant team at all. The team can't control matches in possession, the technical level isn't high enough and the movement and rotation among players doesn't seem well drilled in the same way it developed for those other clubs. And when United lose the ball high up the pitch, they don't have players in position to win it back at the frequency of those other sides - in both attack and defense the team isn't compact enough and doesn't spring from compactness to attacking space in the same way as the others. Largely Ten Hag's plan seems to be to get into chaotic, stretched end-to-end games against weaker sides and hope that United's superior attacking talent will make the difference in matches where both sides have plenty of chances, then play a low block and hope for a few counter-attacking opportunities against strong sides. Its a reasonable approach if the goal is maybe scraping top four but its a not a platform for building a dominant team. Ten Hag has also spent slightly more money on transfer fees in his first 20 months than Klopp or Arteta had spent by the 36 month mark.

Unless something major changes this spring, I don't see why you would go past 24 months with this manager. The worst thing would be making the decision based on whether United manage to scrape top 4/5 rather than based on an assessment of how likely Ten Hag is to take United to the very top of the game again.

Both Arsenal and Liverpool had semi-functional structures in place.

I don’t think oppo fans truly understand how abysmally poor the glazers are at owning/running a football club or how much damage they have done to us in their time as owners.

Ineos may only have 25% for now, but it seems clear that they do actually have some control over the footballing side of the business.

With them remedying some of the structural inadequacies caused and allowed to fester by the Glazers i expect the next decade to look far more positive.

I suspect every manager we have had in the last decade would have faired better in the circumstances/environment that we finally seem to be building and ETH deserves a shot under that structure, he has done as well as anyone without it.

Honestly though, everyone needs to understand that the Glazers are quite possibly the worst and most toxic owners in sport history, i suspect when Mourinho claimed getting second with us was his greatest achievement, he meant it!

 

[NLunited]

Both Arsenal and Liverpool had semi-functional structures in place.

I don’t think oppo fans truly understand how abysmally poor the glazers are at owning/running a football club or how much damage they have done to us in their time as owners.

Ineos may only have 25% for now, but it seems clear that they do actually have some control over the footballing side of the business.

With them remedying some of the structural inadequacies caused and allowed to fester by the Glazers i expect the next decade to look far more positive.

I suspect every manager we have had in the last decade would have faired better in the circumstances/environment that we finally seem to be building and ETH deserves a shot under that structure, he has done as well as anyone without it.

Honestly though, everyone needs to understand that the Glazers are quite possibly the worst and most toxic owners in sport history, i suspect when Mourinho claimed getting second with us was his greatest achievement, he meant it!

Great post. Probably 10Hag is doing the best in these circumstances, however chaotic it is at times.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

There was a period after they scored where Chong was regularly picking up the ball in the space between midfield and defence, turning and running at our back four. Those are runs that a DM is there to pick up, but we are effectively playing with two 8s.

This is what people mean when they say that we're too easy too attack. Ball carrying midfielders get a lot of freedom against us because we have so much attackable space between midfield and defence.

Neither Casemiro nor Mainoo (for all his brilliance) are providing a genuine screen in front of the back four. When we played with Carrick and Scholes, it was clear who would do what; Carrick's anticipation and reading of the game was exceptional. Casemiro doesn't have the legs for that role, and Mainoo is naturally playing further forward.

This makes sense. Casemiro could do this last season, but seems not to have the legs for it now.

 

[Berbaclass]

 

[Marwood]

That’s an objectively untrue statement. Look no further than the 2021 and 2022 CL final. I mean, do people actually read what they write before posting?

You're picking out exceptions and one off games. That's why I said "majority" rather than 'all the time"

You don't play football hoping to be an exception to the rule.

 

[Marwood]

Peak Jose won the majority of his trophies by controlling games without the ball. He regularly won game with 40% or less possession.

His first stint at Chelsea, you reckon he won those leagues with an average possession below 50%?

Or his title in Spain?

 

[Borys]

Peak Jose won the majority of his trophies by controlling games without the ball. He regularly won game with 40% or less possession.

Correct, and how does it relate to what we're doing?
Jose teams were good at preventing any real danger, very comfortable pushing teams away from the box and frustrating them, intercepting and counterattacking. We on the other hand only get the ball after the opposition takes a shot on goal.

 

[stefan92]

That's nice, but doesn't mean much. If you disrupt the open play and then concede a goal from the set piece, you have won nothing. And while United is close to the top teams from open play, they are far worse from set pieces (City conceded just 4, Liverpool 7 and United 12!). Preventing dangerous set pieces (and defending against them) are the main areas where the defence needs to improve

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Peak Jose won the majority of his trophies by controlling games without the ball. He regularly won game with 40% or less possession.

Peak Jose isn't our manager and the game has changed since then.

Also, Peak Jose wouldn't let Luton get off 20+ shots with almost 60% of the ball. He ceded possession vs the best teams mostly and never vs league minnows.

 

[Insanity]

Peak Jose isn't our manager and the game has changed since then.

Also, Peak Jose wouldn't let Luton get off 20+ shots with almost 60% of the ball. He ceded possession vs the best teams mostly and never vs league minnows.

Imagine comparing Jose's solid and compact teams to our team which is more open than a hooker's legs and has conceded 34 goals in 25 Pl matches, just based on possession stats. Some posters on here won't know what football is if it hits them in the face. The obsession with becoming manager stans is weird.

 

[astracrazy]

Both Arsenal and Liverpool had semi-functional structures in place.

I don’t think oppo fans truly understand how abysmally poor the glazers are at owning/running a football club or how much damage they have done to us in their time as owners.

Ineos may only have 25% for now, but it seems clear that they do actually have some control over the footballing side of the business.

With them remedying some of the structural inadequacies caused and allowed to fester by the Glazers i expect the next decade to look far more positive.

I suspect every manager we have had in the last decade would have faired better in the circumstances/environment that we finally seem to be building and ETH deserves a shot under that structure, he has done as well as anyone without it.

Honestly though, everyone needs to understand that the Glazers are quite possibly the worst and most toxic owners in sport history, i suspect when Mourinho claimed getting second with us was his greatest achievement, he meant it!

You can't blame the Glazers for the majority of the other guys post regarding tactics and style of play. That is on EtH. Fergie managed, LVG managed, Jose managed and Ole even managed. At least with those manages you saw a plan and identity. If the players were not good enough, granted, but with EtH it's week in week out chaos.

 

[VP89]

Peak Jose isn't our manager and the game has changed since then.

Also, Peak Jose wouldn't let Luton get off 20+ shots with almost 60% of the ball. He ceded possession vs the best teams mostly and never vs league minnows.

Imagine comparing Jose's solid and compact teams to our team which is more open than a hooker's legs and has conceded 34 goals in 25 Pl matches, just based on possession stats. Some posters on here won't know what football is if it hits them in the face. The obsession with becoming manager stans is weird.

To be fair - the poster in question was not referring to the Luton game, but making a general point that one does not need to dominate possession in every game in order to win major honours.

The obsession with some fans trying to mislead others into thinking there's some blind following for Ten Hag based on a debate on possession however, is weird.

 

[always_hoping]

To be fair - the poster in question was not referring to the Luton game, but making a general point that one does not need to dominate possession in every game in order to win major honours.

The obsession with some fans trying to mislead others into thinking there's some blind following for Ten Hag based on a debate on possession however, is weird.

On the money. And weird is one word for it alright.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

You can't blame the Glazers for the majority of the other guys post regarding tactics and style of play. That is on EtH. Fergie managed, LVG managed, Jose managed and Ole even managed. At least with those manages you saw a plan and identity. If the players were not good enough, granted, but with EtH it's week in week out chaos.

Exactly. Not sure why the Glazers are constantly brought up when many of us are complaining about game day issues/structure/tactics. Not even to mention ETH has probably been supported by the Glazers more than any of those other managers overall, but that's besides the point.

And I actually DO see a plan and identity, it's just a bad one. Which is why I don't think just giving him another year with more transfers will change much. Sure it might improve the overall baseline of the team somewhat, but it's not going to really progress us to challenging the top teams (which you'd expect in year 3 of a manager's reign here).

 

[VP89]

Exactly. Not sure why the Glazers are constantly brought up when many of us are complaining about game day issues/structure/tactics. Not even to mention ETH has probably been supported by the Glazers more than any of those other managers overall, but that's besides the point.

And I actually DO see a plan and identity, it's just a bad one. Which is why I don't think just giving him another year with more transfers will change much. Sure it might improve the overall baseline of the team somewhat, but it's not going to really progress us to challenging the top teams (which you'd expect in year 3 of a manager's reign here).

- Erik Ten Hag has a certain style he wants to implement. And he does not want to divert from this style too far, otherwise it's a step back in the process.
- He needs certain players to play this style, and is dependent on a counterpart(s) to bounce ideas off for recruitment, so that he is both listened to and challenged with adequate alternatives.
- He enters a realm where sponsorships failed to get renewed, head scouts get sacked, and the 3 month old CEO /DoFs are faced with uncertainty on whether they have a job the next quarter, and the quarter after that.
- He is then told he can't go for a ready made striker, and has to go for youth projects in key areas, due to FFP considerations. He is also told that due to poor allocation of resources in previous windows, no funding from owners, a surprise from the way PL took our covid accounting & other factors, the budget is worse than it was.
- He is also faced with half a season of having pretty much no first choice center back and almost always no left back, with a back up left back out for a year, and an emergency LB only ratified to stay until January (but guess what, he also had about 4--5 weeks injured too). Whilst also seeing weeks of injuries to other full back (AWB), and other Center backs, and seeing his striker come in injured from pre-season and his only viable DM option injured for many weeks. And his generational talent CM that he wanted to play since last spring, also injured for the first half of the season.

He works around this whilst yes, still making margin for his own errors as a manager, which is totally allowed by the way. And you think that all of these areas don't affect the game planning or structure. Are you serious?

 

[Stinkypete]

You can't blame the Glazers for the majority of the other guys post regarding tactics and style of play. That is on EtH. Fergie managed, LVG managed, Jose managed and Ole even managed. At least with those manages you saw a plan and identity. If the players were not good enough, granted, but with EtH it's week in week out chaos.

Commentators would complain about lack of patterns of play and identity under Ole and Mourinho on an almost weekly basis.

 

[McTerminator]

- Erik Ten Hag has a certain style he wants to implement. And he does not want to divert from this style too far, otherwise it's a step back in the process.
- He needs certain players to play this style, and is dependent on a counterpart(s) to bounce ideas off for recruitment, so that he is both listened to and challenged with adequate alternatives.
- He enters a realm where sponsorships failed to get renewed, head scouts get sacked, and the 3 month old CEO /DoFs are faced with uncertainty on whether they have a job the next quarter, and the quarter after that.
- He is then told he can't go for a ready made striker, and has to go for youth projects in key areas, due to FFP considerations. He is also told that due to poor allocation of resources in previous windows, no funding from owners, a surprise from the way PL took our covid accounting & other factors, the budget is worse than it was.
- He is also faced with half a season of having pretty much no first choice center back and almost always no left back, with a back up left back out for a year, and an emergency LB only ratified to stay until January (but guess what, he also had about 4--5 weeks injured too). Whilst also seeing weeks of injuries to other full back (AWB), and other Center backs, and seeing his striker come in injured from pre-season and his only viable DM option injured for many weeks. And his generational talent CM that he wanted to play since last spring, also injured for the first half of the season.

He works around this whilst yes, still making margin for his own errors as a manager, which is totally allowed by the way. And you think that all of these areas don't affect the game planning or structure. Are you serious?

Thank you for some sanity!!

 

[Gordon Godot]

Great post. Probably 10Hag is doing the best in these circumstances, however chaotic it is at times.

The structure is woeful, it makes it hard. But also ETH has a full cp

Commentators would complain about lack of patterns of play and identity under Ole and Mourinho on an almost weekly basis.

They did, but the basic team shape was clear, especially under Mourinho. It was less clear with Ole. But both managers were underwhelming and Ole in particular had no idea how to evolve United. What is the obsession with comparisons. They werent good enough, its possible ETH isnt either.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

- Erik Ten Hag has a certain style he wants to implement. And he does not want to divert from this style too far, otherwise it's a step back in the process. Correct, as I've said the style is quite clear for how he wants to play at this point. It's just one that is far too reliant on a level of technicality from each player that's basically unsustainable and also lends itself to far too much variance for us to compete at a higher level than a top 4 challenger.
- He needs certain players to play this style, and is dependent on a counterpart(s) to bounce ideas off for recruitment, so that he is both listened to and challenged with adequate alternatives. He's largely gotten them: Mount, Antony, Martinez, Malacia all were first choices for those roles. Kane and FDJ were the two main misses that he wasn't able to acquire, with one being impossible budget wise and the other not wanting to come.
- He enters a realm where sponsorships failed to get renewed, head scouts get sacked, and the 3 month old CEO /DoFs are faced with uncertainty on whether they have a job the next quarter, and the quarter after that. Again has nothing to do with how he sets up his team on a weekend. Sure the environment sucks but none of us are arguing otherwise.
- He is then told he can't go for a ready made striker, and has to go for youth projects in key areas, due to FFP considerations. He is also told that due to poor allocation of resources in previous windows, no funding from owners, a surprise from the way PL took our covid accounting & other factors, the budget is worse than it was. In his first two windows he's been backed financially more than any other manager we've had. And it was a perfectly viable decision to say no to spanking 120m on Kane (thank god because that would look like a tremendous waste of money given how we refuse to feed our strikers in the team)
- He is also faced with half a season of having pretty much no first choice center back and almost always no left back, with a back up left back out for a year, and an emergency LB only ratified to stay until January (but guess what, he also had about 4--5 weeks injured too). Whilst also seeing weeks of injuries to other full back (AWB), and other Center backs, and seeing his striker come in injured from pre-season and his only viable DM option injured for many weeks. And his generational talent CM that he wanted to play since last spring, also injured for the first half of the season. We've already gone over the injury issues in another thread. Martinez and LB have been the main fallouts. And guess what, no matter who is in the lineup we still look to play the exact same way!

He works around this whilst yes, still making margin for his own errors as a manager, which is totally allowed by the way. And you think that all of these areas don't affect the game planning or structure. Are you serious?

 

[VP89]

Correct, as I've said the style is quite clear for how he wants to play at this point. It's just one that is far too reliant on a level of technicality from each player that's basically unsustainable and also lends itself to far too much variance for us to compete at a higher level than a top 4 challenger.

The way the Premier League quality is, you need to have a technical player in every position in order to demonstrate chops as being more than just a top 4. Regarding it being unsustainable, I disagree - I know you are worried about the sheer toll of lugging it up and down on presses and then defending counter transitions, however this is happening more frequently because a lot of key players fielded are unable to stick to the game plan either due to a lack of technical prowess or them being over the hill. Better suited players will be less chaotic as we would control games better with a better structure for rest defence.
Ten Hag has said multiple times that we have not closed half spaces in our positioning well enough, or we did not finish our chances when we should have. This is not a physical problem, but a technical one.

He's largely gotten them: Mount, Antony, Martinez, Malacia all were first choices for those roles. Kane and FDJ were the two main misses that he wasn't able to acquire, with one being impossible budget wise and the other not wanting to come.

He acutally has not. Mount was a club pursuit as much (or moreso) than a Ten Hag one. The Athletic leaked he was liked by everyone at the club to the extent Murtough panicked and bought him in for a steep fee to stop Liverpool or Arsenal getting him. Casemiro was likely not his name, Malacia was a squad left back who hasn't even been available for a year. Licha is a big hit and funnily enough the single biggest positive impact on our team when he played. Finally Antony is his error - but consider what he inherited. You cannot pretend a mish mash of players which are a combination of strategic club buys, panic buys, and then a couple of his own is going to be a big fix - especially when key ones are out for half a season.

Again has nothing to do with how he sets up his team on a weekend. Sure the environment sucks but none of us are arguing otherwise.

It has everything to do with how he sets up a team on a weekend, because as explained, he needs to progress with a style and a culture, a specific way of playing. He cannot do this without the right profiles.

In his first two windows he's been backed financially more than any other manager we've had. And it was a perfectly viable decision to say no to spanking 120m on Kane (thank god because that would look like a tremendous waste of money given how we refuse to feed our strikers in the team)

Ah the old Souness rebuttal when he'd defend the Glazers with "but they've spent money, why are they complaining!". Put it this way - 100m spent well is always better than 200m wasted. And the lack of structure, lack of footballing direction above the manager and vacuum of support meant the transfer strategy was "Hey Erik, we sacked off our scouts and we have no clue whats happening, who do you want mate?"

We've already gone over the injury issues in another thread. Martinez and LB have been the main fallouts. And guess what, no matter who is in the lineup we still look to play the exact same way!

I'm sorry but this is such utter bullshit. Casemiro may be hot and cold in form but he's literally our only DM that can actually be capable of good games. He was missing for a long time. Eriksen was out for a long time. Mount has been out for a long time (counts as little but its still an option to unlock teams). We had games fielding Amrabat and Lindelof at LB because Wan Bissaka's also been out. I can only assume you didn't have a straight face when you boil down his key injuries to just Licha + LB. Maguire was on great form for us and missed 1-2 months too. Lindelof had surgery didn't he? There was a game away to Arsenal where we were playing very well in, heck we should have won the game! But we got 0 points because we had 2 key injuries mid game and conceded last minute with Evans and Maguire at the back. Mainoo is a player Ten Hag ear marked since April - he was very much in his plans to start as seen in pre season. He wasn't with us for half a season and you can see the impat he makes now.

 

[BoulderDevil]

To be fair - the poster in question was not referring to the Luton game, but making a general point that one does not need to dominate possession in every game in order to win major honours.

The obsession with some fans trying to mislead others into thinking there's some blind following for Ten Hag based on a debate on possession however, is weird.

Exactly. Thank you. Sometimes people just read what they want to see not actually what was written.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

The way the Premier League quality is, you need to have a technical player in every position in order to demonstrate chops as being more than just a top 4. Regarding it being unsustainable, I disagree - I know you are worried about the sheer toll of lugging it up and down on presses and then defending counter transitions, however this is happening more frequently because a lot of key players fielded are unable to stick to the game plan either due to a lack of technical prowess or them being over the hill. Better suited players will be less chaotic as we would control games better with a better structure for rest defence.
Ten Hag has said multiple times that we have not closed half spaces in our positioning well enough, or we did not finish our chances when we should have. This is not a physical problem, but a technical one.

He acutally has not. Mount was a club pursuit as much (or moreso) than a Ten Hag one. The Athletic leaked he was liked by everyone at the club to the extent Murtough panicked and bought him in for a steep fee to stop Liverpool or Arsenal getting him. Casemiro was likely not his name, Malacia was a squad left back who hasn't even been available for a year. Licha is a big hit and funnily enough the single biggest positive impact on our team when he played. Finally Antony is his error - but consider what he inherited. You cannot pretend a mish mash of players which are a combination of strategic club buys, panic buys, and then a couple of his own is going to be a big fix - especially when key ones are out for half a season.

It has everything to do with how he sets up a team on a weekend, because as explained, he needs to progress with a style and a culture, a specific way of playing. He cannot do this without the right profiles.

Ah the old Souness rebuttal when he'd defend the Glazers with "but they've spent money, why are they complaining!". Put it this way - 100m spent well is always better than 200m wasted. And the lack of structure, lack of footballing direction above the manager and vacuum of support meant the transfer strategy was "Hey Erik, we sacked off our scouts and we have no clue whats happening, who do you want mate?"

I'm sorry but this is such utter bullshit. Casemiro may be hot and cold in form but he's literally our only DM that can actually be capable of good games. He was missing for a long time. Eriksen was out for a long time. Mount has been out for a long time (counts as little but its still an option to unlock teams). We had games fielding Amrabat and Lindelof at LB because Wan Bissaka's also been out. I can only assume you didn't have a straight face when you boil down his key injuries to just Licha + LB. Maguire was on great form for us and missed 1-2 months too. Lindelof had surgery didn't he? There was a game away to Arsenal where we were playing very well in, heck we should have won the game! But we got 0 points because we had 2 key injuries mid game and conceded last minute with Evans and Maguire at the back. Mainoo is a player Ten Hag ear marked since April - he was very much in his plans to start as seen in pre season. He wasn't with us for half a season and you can see the impat he makes now.

Literally it takes two seconds to go back and look at what was posted in @BenitoSTARR thread as far as our injury availability to see that actual statistics instead of just saying “X player was out for a long time”. Hence why I boiled it down Licha and the LB’s because there’s no denying both have been unavailable for selection far more than anyone else.

But regardless because you and I are quite clearly on far opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to ETH’s prospects/what he’s done so far and I don’t feel like going through it, I’ll instead ask: What/where do you expect us to be next year if ETH is given yet another summer with INEOS? Because by any conventional wisdom there should be huge improvement in both results and performances in a managers 3rd season with a club especially given the financial outlay. And this is where we differ, because I don’t see another summer where even if we buy and sell well, will change the outlook and have us competing with Arsenal and Liverpool and going toe to toe given the evidence I’ve seen so far. Hence why I want him gone, because I don’t feel like wasting more money on a managers project that doesn’t seem to have a ceiling past top 4 challengers.

I feel as a club we’ve become far too willing to give both managers and players “time” instead of being able to see the future outlook isn’t worth it and cutting bait sooner rather than later. It’s one of the (many) reasons we’ve degraded post SAF.

 

[VP89]

Literally it takes two seconds to go back and look at what was posted in @BenitoSTARR thread as far as our injury availability to see that actual statistics instead of just saying “X player was out for a long time”. Hence why I boiled it down Licha and the LB’s because there’s no denying both have been unavailable for selection far more than anyone else.

Haven't seen the post but it's very clear that Casemiro, Kobbie, Licha and Shaw have been immense misses for the first team.

But regardless because you and I are quite clearly on far opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to ETH’s prospects/what he’s done so far and I don’t feel like going through it, I’ll instead ask: What/where do you expect us to be next year if ETH is given yet another summer with INEOS? Because by any conventional wisdom there should be huge improvement in both results and performances in a managers 3rd season with a club especially given the financial outlay. And this is where we differ, because I don’t see another summer where even if we buy and sell well, will change the outlook and have us competing with Arsenal and Liverpool and going toe to toe given the evidence I’ve seen so far. Hence why I want him gone, because I don’t feel like wasting more money on a managers project that doesn’t seem to have a ceiling past top 4 challengers.

I feel as a club we’ve become far too willing to give both managers and players “time” instead of being able to see the future outlook isn’t worth it and cutting bait sooner rather than later. It’s one of the (many) reasons we’ve degraded post SAF.

Next summer might not have Ashworth fully in place & is a massive sell driven summer with us reportedly targeting opportunistic signings. Not exactly the "lets throw £100m at Rice" window. That being said if the right signings are made I certainly expect us to bridge the gap with Arsenal or Liverpool.

I also don't think there's a single manager out there who is available with the proven chops to do better. We can meet again after the next 5ish games and take a look at what tally Ten Hag is on course to finish on. I don't think many managers would do better than that with the cards he was dealt.