Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[tjb]

On average:

These are our seasonal stats:

Shots per game: 14.3
Opponent Shots per game: 15.8
Possession: 51%
Goals: 33

Chelsea, City, Pool and Arsenal average 60% or more possession. None of them have the opposition shooting more times than they do. In fact, City, Pool and Arsenal double the opposition shot total. Yet somehow we should just look at the performances.

The stats say we suck, the eye test says we suck. The quality we have in our squad, both starting and depth says we should have far better average and total stats than that. Yet here we are with some fans trying to jump through hoops to defend the manager over the success of the club. You don't win leagues playing how we've been playing. The true hypocrisy here is acting like the players aren't good enough, yet jumping through hoops to defend the manager.

Here is the irony. According to whoscored our biggest strengths is:

Creating chances through individual skill.

Yet it's the players.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Ok so purely from a minutes played basis (based on PL alone as I’m being lazy and the league is what people have been arguing most) the % is reported as minute involvements. If a player didn’t play it doesn’t contribute to their %.

75 or above
50 to 74
0 to 49

Onana 100%
AWB 41% / Dalot 89%
Varane 42% / Maguire 47%
Martinez 26%
Shaw 43%
Casemiro 42%
Mainoo 36%
Bruno 96%
Garnacho 66%
Rashford 76%
Højlund 64%

Now looking at the squad:
Onana 100%
Bayindir 0%*
Heaton 0%

AWB 41%
Dalot 89%

Martinez 26%
Maguire 47%
Varane 42%
Lindelof 44%
Evans 41%
Kambwala 12%

Shaw 43%
Malacia 0%

Casemiro 42%
Amrabat 32%
McTominay 56%
Eriksen 39%
Mainoo 36%
Fernandes 96%
Mount 19%

Rashford 76%
Garnacho 66%
Antony 43%
Diallo 2%

Højlund 64%
Martial 21%

Wonder why we might not be a fully functioning well oiled machine by now…

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I’ll have to do the rest of this tomorrow now but would we say doing the above for:

City
Liverpool
Arsenal
Spurs
Aston Villa

Would give a very fair view of availability of our competition?

 

[Red Dreams]

Onana

Dalot
Martinez
Varane
Shaw

Casemiro
Mainoo
Bruno

Garnacho
Hojlund
Rashford

That is our best 11

 

[Juice Juiced]

Should have been sacked after 7-0. Embarrassing result.

 

[uwotm8]

On average:

These are our seasonal stats:

Shots per game: 14.3
Opponent Shots per game: 15.8
Possession: 51%
Goals: 33

Chelsea, City, Pool and Arsenal average 60% or more possession. None of them have the opposition shooting more times than they do. In fact, City, Pool and Arsenal double the opposition shot total. Yet somehow we should just look at the performances.

The stats say we suck, the eye test says we suck. The quality we have in our squad, both starting and depth says we should have far better average and total stats than that. Yet here we are with some fans trying to jump through hoops to defend the manager over the success of the club. You don't win leagues playing how we've been playing. The true hypocrisy here is acting like the players aren't good enough, yet jumping through hoops to defend the manager.

Here is the irony. According to whoscored our biggest strengths is:

Creating chances through individual skill.

Yet it's the players.

ten hag is flawed and made mistakes. But he has shown some good signs. If he plays at this kind of level with the occasional near miss for the rest of the season I don’t see the point in replacing him.

and I know people hate to hear it. But he’s played his best 11 precisely once this season (against West Ham)

 

[city-puma]

I agree De Gea had to go I just dont see Onana as a big step up for the £55 mill Utd paid for him. Unless he improves a lot I can see him being a one or two season goalie and moved on. He played well against Villa, so lets hope he can keep it up.

We should have paid 30mil maximum. But, the clowns in charge did wonder!

 

[VP89]

Villa and Spurs haven't had their best XIs available all season yet still have more points and +18/15 goal difference on us.

They haven't had our level of injuries. Worth also noting we have done all our harder away games too, if I'm not mistaken they still have a few of theirs.

 

[gajender]

Villa and Spurs haven't had their best XIs available all season yet still have more points and +18/15 goal difference on us.

How many points do you see United finishing behind these two and who will finish higher Villa or Spurs .

 

[Leftback99]

How many points do you see United finishing behind these two and who will finish higher Villa or Spurs .

I reckon it will stay pretty much as is. You?

 

[BenitoSTARR]

How many points do you see United finishing behind these two and who will finish higher Villa or Spurs .

Spurs ahead of Villa and United ahead of Villa too.

 

[gajender]

I reckon it will stay pretty much as is. You?

Spurs ahead of Villa and United ahead of Villa too.

Injuries are piling up for Villa So I am kind of confident United finishing above them , Spurs haven't impressed me that much to be honest but like United they do have knack of ending up on right side of results more often than not So could be toss up between Us and them with Spurs slight favourites .

 

[M16Red]

Antony - Mount - Onana. That's almost 200m right there. No one said all his signings were bad, but we really could have used that money better.

Do you think EtH negotiates contracts and prices?

 

[wolvored]

Do you think EtH negotiates contracts and prices?

No but Murtough should have said no not given into his pleading as the likes of Antony shouldn’t have cost 85 mill and a 10x wage increase

 

[Borys]

What has been good:

1. Winning a trophy in first season
2. Finishing 3rd first season
3. Development of Mainoo
4. Development of Garnacho
5. Development of Højlund
6. Development of Dalot
7. Development of McTominay into “clutch” player
8. Dealing with Sancho
9. Dealing with Ronaldo
10. Dealing with Rashford
11. Handling of meritocracy scenarios
12. Signing Martinez
13. Signing Højlund
14. Use of “clutch” players McTominay (most points won from goals - 13)
15. Keeping us within touching distance of CL despite unprecedented injuries and Evans being our main CB with Amrabat as a LB at times.
16. Our build up play when everyone is fit
17. Our high pressing and turnovers are the best in the league
18. Our third man runs (especially underlapping from RB and overlapping LB)
19. A win % better than any manager in United’s history despite having half a season without any LB, his best CBs, his only DM, his wingers and strikers on an off too.

There is more but you won’t listen even if I post it and I disagree with large parts of what you’ve said. Name me the 10+ players he’s supposedly signed for example because that one is hilarious!

With regards to what you think you’re seeing on the pitch I suggest you look into tactics a bit more.

I feel sorry for you.

Again I think you’re so far from having a contextual understanding of the league that I can’t be bothered spending any more time today.

Tag me tomorrow and I’ll have the energy to go again.

Look at how many players have been and gone under Guardiola in his time at City and look at the pace at which they are swapped out. It all takes time and structure above the manager too.

1. Winning a trophy in first season - Agreed
2. Finishing 3rd first season - Agreed, although somehow lucky that other teams were supershite
3. Development of Mainoo - I am not sure if we can speak of development, he is just getting chances which is good
4. Development of Garnacho - agreed
5. Development of Højlund - I don't see anything changing in his game, he is just getting some chances which is good, still he's not getting them enough
6. Development of Dalot - agreed, although he was very good first part of last season already so it's more about giving him gametime ahead of AWB (seems like AWB is out of favour anyway)
7. Development of McTominay into “clutch” player - agreed
8. Dealing with Sancho - not sure what he has done right here, are we praising him for not playing him and falling out with the player?
9. Dealing with Ronaldo - agreed
10. Dealing with Rashford - in what way?
11. Handling of meritocracy scenarios - in what way?
12. Signing Martinez - top top decision
13. Signing Højlund - we'll see about that
14. Use of “clutch” players McTominay (most points won from goals - 13) - agreed
15. Keeping us within touching distance of CL despite unprecedented injuries and Evans being our main CB with Amrabat as a LB at times - no comment, doesn't seem to me like we're in touching distance
16. Our build up play when everyone is fit - absolutely disagree
17. Our high pressing and turnovers are the best in the league - absolutely disagree, out pressing is two way sword and a reason we play tennis games with no control, you also mentioned this in other comment about midfield being too open so that's not something we should praise ETH for
18. Our third man runs (especially underlapping from RB and overlapping LB) - no comment, we just commit bodies forward, is that a good or bad thing - hard to say (see point above)
19. A win % better than any manager in United’s history despite having half a season without any LB, his best CBs, his only DM, his wingers and strikers on an off too - agreed, how much of that is due to last season success though?

You can also cherrypick number of things he got wrong, but even in this list of things you pointed out as "good" I still strongly disagree overall.

The biggest "positive" is I thought we're spiralling into Rangnick/Chelsea-esque decline a few weeks ago, and ETH somehow was able to steady a ship - even if I think we massively overachieved in the last few games, a win is a win and the manager deserves kudos.
The biggest negative for me is our football style is a disaster - unless everyone is fit and firing on top form, what happened for about 3 months since ETH took over (early stages of last season until we won the Cup). And somehow fans are buying into "he doesn't have all players available" as an excuse for that. It should be considered but it's not something to explain the massive drop from the level of what this team is capable of.

 

[NLunited]

1. Winning a trophy in first season - Agreed
2. Finishing 3rd first season - Agreed, although somehow lucky that other teams were supershite
3. Development of Mainoo - I am not sure if we can speak of development, he is just getting chances which is good
4. Development of Garnacho - agreed
5. Development of Højlund - I don't see anything changing in his game, he is just getting some chances which is good, still he's not getting them enough
6. Development of Dalot - agreed, although he was very good first part of last season already so it's more about giving him gametime ahead of AWB (seems like AWB is out of favour anyway)
7. Development of McTominay into “clutch” player - agreed
8. Dealing with Sancho - not sure what he has done right here, are we praising him for not playing him and falling out with the player?
9. Dealing with Ronaldo - agreed
10. Dealing with Rashford - in what way?
11. Handling of meritocracy scenarios - in what way?
12. Signing Martinez - top top decision
13. Signing Højlund - we'll see about that
14. Use of “clutch” players McTominay (most points won from goals - 13) - agreed
15. Keeping us within touching distance of CL despite unprecedented injuries and Evans being our main CB with Amrabat as a LB at times - no comment, doesn't seem to me like we're in touching distance
16. Our build up play when everyone is fit - absolutely disagree
17. Our high pressing and turnovers are the best in the league - absolutely disagree, out pressing is two way sword and a reason we play tennis games with no control, you also mentioned this in other comment about midfield being too open so that's not something we should praise ETH for
18. Our third man runs (especially underlapping from RB and overlapping LB) - no comment, we just commit bodies forward, is that a good or bad thing - hard to say (see point above)
19. A win % better than any manager in United’s history despite having half a season without any LB, his best CBs, his only DM, his wingers and strikers on an off too - agreed, how much of that is due to last season success though?

You can also cherrypick number of things he got wrong, but even in this list of things you pointed out as "good" I still strongly disagree overall.

The biggest "positive" is I thought we're spiralling into Rangnick/Chelsea-esque decline a few weeks ago, and ETH somehow was able to steady a ship - even if I think we massively overachieved in the last few games, a win is a win and the manager deserves kudos.
The biggest negative for me is our football style is a disaster - unless everyone is fit and firing on top form, what happened for about 3 months since ETH took over (early stages of last season until we won the Cup). And somehow fans are buying into "he doesn't have all players available" as an excuse for that. It should be considered but it's not something to explain the massive drop from the level of what this team is capable of.

With Martinez, we definitely were playing more smoothly out the back. The next cb or fb that we buy has to be this comfortable on the ball.

Ten Hag is asking a lot of the team: he wants them to play through the press quickly, with low numbers in midfield so we have numbers up front.

We have scored good team goals doing exactly that, and I think it is great. Some of us don‘t want to see patient tikitaka to create chances: we don‘t have the best players for that.

What I do agree with is that we can control games better when we are leading. Sometimes this means slowing the game down, other times you have to keep the pressure on.

Against Villa, we dropped off instead of continuing the good pressing we were doing. This has nothing to do with Ten Hag: the players stopped following the game plan after we got the well deserved goal.

After Villa scored, the players found composure and determination. They slowed the game down and looked for a winner, in a controlled way. This is a big deal; we have looked mentally weak in away games.

The team still has a lot of improving to do, notably improve defensive awareness and focus, stick to the game plan and avoid turnovers to prevent the tennis match effect (which is tiring).

When you compare last season to this season, you should mention the injuries we have had this season or the amount of games that tired us out last season.

 

[erikcred]

Should have been sacked after 7-0. Embarrassing result.

Not sure if you watched Henry speak on the Champions League show about the pressure that managers are constantly under. He was talking about Klopp, but it applies equally to ETH and his current situation. It's good to remember this. The 7-0 would've hurt him too. And tbf, ETH has somewhat steadied the ship. At least for now.

If we make it into the CL even with a flukish 5th place finish, I think we'll keep him and let him build on it. I've been quite negative regarding ETH this season, but if the current momentum continues, then it'll be a no brainer to keep him. But keep him out of transfer business!

 

[horsechoker]

If ten Hag can get us a good run of results until the end of the season I'd keep him on but restrict his say on transfers. The scouts should present him a list of players from 1st choice to 3rd Choice and have him give his preference.

 

[Gordon Godot]

If ten Hag can get us a good run of results until the end of the season I'd keep him on but restrict his say on transfers. The scouts should present him a list of players from 1st choice to 3rd Choice and have him give his preference.

Based on his choices so far he should have no say and take what is offered. Most top clubs dont give managers a choice from 3. You build a squad and style that survives changes in manager.

 

[Gordon Godot]

With Martinez, we definitely were playing more smoothly out the back. The next cb or fb that we buy has to be this comfortable on the ball.

Ten Hag is asking a lot of the team: he wants them to play through the press quickly, with low numbers in midfield so we have numbers up front.

We have scored good team goals doing exactly that, and I think it is great. Some of us don‘t want to see patient tikitaka to create chances: we don‘t have the best players for that.

What I do agree with is that we can control games better when we are leading. Sometimes this means slowing the game down, other times you have to keep the pressure on.

Against Villa, we dropped off instead of continuing the good pressing we were doing. This has nothing to do with Ten Hag: the players stopped following the game plan after we got the well deserved goal.

After Villa scored, the players found composure and determination. They slowed the game down and looked for a winner, in a controlled way. This is a big deal; we have looked mentally weak in away games.

The team still has a lot of improving to do, notably improve defensive awareness and focus, stick to the game plan and avoid turnovers to prevent the tennis match effect (which is tiring).

When you compare last season to this season, you should mention the injuries we have had this season or the amount of games that tired us out last season.

OK, so when things go wrong its not ETH its the players. Got it. We never avoid turnovers because we dont control the shape of the match, it means we just manage chaos. That is part of the great ETH system. Seriously the delusions on here.

 

[M16Red]

No but Murtough should have said no not given into his pleading as the likes of Antony shouldn’t have cost 85 mill and a 10x wage increase

I agree, EtH probably cares more about the right wing than the cost.

We have been like this for so so long.

Plus he probably wanted more allies in the dressing room

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

Ok so purely from a minutes played basis (based on PL alone as I’m being lazy and the league is what people have been arguing most) the % is reported as minute involvements. If a player didn’t play it doesn’t contribute to their %.

75 or above
50 to 74
0 to 49

Onana 100%
AWB 41% / Dalot 89%
Varane 42% / Maguire 47%
Martinez 26%
Shaw 43%
Casemiro 42%
Mainoo 36%
Bruno 96%
Garnacho 66%
Rashford 76%
Højlund 64%

Now looking at the squad:
Onana 100%
Bayindir 0%*
Heaton 0%

AWB 41%
Dalot 89%

Martinez 26%
Maguire 47%
Varane 42%
Lindelof 44%
Evans 41%
Kambwala 12%

Shaw 43%
Malacia 0%

Casemiro 42%
Amrabat 32%
McTominay 56%
Eriksen 39%
Mainoo 36%
Fernandes 96%
Mount 19%

Rashford 76%
Garnacho 66%
Antony 43%
Diallo 2%

Højlund 64%
Martial 21%

Wonder why we might not be a fully functioning well oiled machine by now…

Such a good post.

Hopefully it provides some folks with easy-to-digest context.

A welcome antidote to those robotically barking out stuff they’ve heard on TV, or read in the press.

Sometimes this thread reads a bit like the witch scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Thanks for doing the analysis and sharing.

 

[NLunited]

OK, so when things go wrong its not ETH its the players. Got it. We never avoid turnovers because we dont control the shape of the match, it means we just manage chaos. That is part of the great ETH system. Seriously the delusions on here.

We need to avoid unnecessary turnovers, that‘s exactly it. Decision making falls with the players: do I try to dribble past two players or do I pass?

 

[Moriarty]

If ten Hag can get us a good run of results until the end of the season I'd keep him on but restrict his say on transfers. The scouts should present him a list of players from 1st choice to 3rd Choice and have him give his preference.

If we don't make the CL, I expect he'll be gone. That was the way under the old regime but maybe the new men will have different ideas.

 

[DJ_21]

Based on his choices so far he should have no say and take what is offered. Most top clubs dont give managers a choice from 3. You build a squad and style that survives changes in manager.

I think most managers get the players they want. There’s just a way of doing it and scouting the player properly. Take Liverpool for example… Klopp wanted VVD, they didn’t get him the year they wanted him but they waited a year to sign there top target. Where as we’d waste the money on a back up signing that isn’t anywhere near as good as our 1st choice target.

 

[DJ_21]

If we don't make the CL, I expect he'll be gone. That was the way under the old regime but maybe the new men will have different ideas.

Think the only way he loses his job is if we go on a losing streak or we have a humiliating result before the end of the season (city game most likely) if we miss out top 4 by a few points then I think he stays.

 

[V.O.]

Should have been sacked after 7-0. Embarrassing result.

That scoreline (not the result) was a complete fluke. We were probably the better team for the first 40 minutes, and while we were beyond shocking in the second half, they benefitted from some straight up voodoo levels of everything just flying in perfectly for them to rack up the scoreline. That game could just as easily finish 3-1 and have nobody ever think much more about it.

What genuinely is awful though, is that there been games we probably did deserve to lose something like 7-0. Newcastle away under Ten Hag both times was like that.

 

[NLunited]

If we don't make the CL, I expect he'll be gone. That was the way under the old regime but maybe the new men will have different ideas.

With eight contenders for four CL spots, this has changed. I‘m sure if we miss out but otherwise look like we are improving, he‘ll stay.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I think he'll be here next season regardless of CL football. That's unless we go on a horrible run of form, and the trigger has to be pulled. We've looked better recently so hopefully we can maintain that good form. Our fixtures until the end of the season are relatively favourable and I fancy us to pick up plenty of points, but fear that inevitably, we may get a-few drubbings.

I think overall, he done a good job last season. This season has been an utter shambles though. Using injuries as an excuse has some merits, but there were some truly awful performances in that period that really can't be excused. I really don't feel strongly one way or another about him being here next season. If he is here - which I expect he will be - then our football really, really has to improve as do our performances against the bigger sides.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Such a good post.

Hopefully it provides some folks with easy-to-digest context.

A welcome antidote to those robotically barking out stuff they’ve heard on TV, or read in the press.

Sometimes this thread reads a bit like the witch scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Thanks for doing the analysis and sharing.

It’s not though, easy to digest is wrong, mainoo and Garnacho are so low because they were not picked to play, not because injury.

you going all in on people robotically barking out what they are on tv is as silly as you’re just looking at colours and going oooo red

 

[BenitoSTARR]

It’s not though, easy to digest is wrong, mainoo and Garnacho are so low because they were not picked to play, not because injury.

you going all in on people robotically barking out what they are on tv is as silly as you’re just looking at colours and going oooo red

Ok why is all of our defence red bar Dalot?

 

[Zlatan 7]

Ok why is all of our defence red bar Dalot?

Because Maguire was dropped? Then varane was dropped? Varane was shit for a while and Maguire deserved his place. They’ve shared their game time

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Because Maguire was dropped? Then varane was dropped? Varane was shit for a while and Maguire deserved his place. They’ve shared their game time

Doesn’t work out in a minutes split.

 

[VictoriaRed]

He's dealing with what we have, which is a lot of dross. While McT is banging them in, we all know he is purely a squad player. Bruno has to go. Onana might come good, not so much for Antony, which was a horrible, horrible buy. We need at least 4-5 new signings, perhaps not requested by ETH. Give him a bit more time.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

Bizarre time to complain. We're in the middle of a good run. And beating Villa away is a difficult task. I suspect folk just want him gone regardless.

I have seen enough, this is him and this is all that he is capable of. Some bizarre formations, horrible signings, terrible runs, mismanagement of the squad with occasional runs that cover the cracks and eventual return to mid table. Don't get me wrong, by no means he is a bad manager, god no. He is alright, but we as a club, need to have a bit more than just an alright manager.

 

[Wumminator]

He's dealing with what we have, which is a lot of dross. While McT is banging them in, we all know he is purely a squad player. Bruno has to go. Onana might come good, not so much for Antony, which was a horrible, horrible buy. We need at least 4-5 new signings, perhaps not requested by ETH. Give him a bit more time.

Bruno has to go?

Are people actually watching football? Awful post.

 

[Wumminator]

I have seen enough, this is him and this is all that he is capable of. Some bizarre formations, horrible signings, terrible runs, mismanagement of the squad with occasional runs that cover the cracks and eventual return to mid table. Don't get me wrong, by no means he is a bad manager, god no. He is alright, but we as a club, need to have a bit more than just an alright manager.

Despite us never being midtable under ETH you have seen enough that we will eventually fall back there?

Weird.

 

[gajender]

Bruno has to go?

Are people actually watching football? Awful post.

He can't be regular starter if we have any aspirations to again become Club good enough to compete for biggest honours .

 

[Zlatan 7]

He can't be regular starter if we have any aspirations to again become Club good enough to compete for biggest honours .

We’re up shit creek then because he’s out best player

 

[gajender]

We’re up shit creek then because he’s out best player

That's arguable but even assuming he is , fundamental issue with Bruno is he needs to be fulcrum of the team to justify his place but if you make him your main man then you are limiting the ceiling of the team So to speak .

You can't simply have such a limited player playing in middle for your team it's simply not worth it .