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Bruno is a world class creator but he’s also limited in the areas suggested by that poster.
This is not a dig at Bruno but it is true.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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This is not a dig at Bruno but it is true.
If he achieves that then why would we want to change him?
I've not wanted him out at any point so far. I'm just wondering what people think who vehemently want him gone, but also been impressed by Ineos' moves so far.
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Some are arguable or not all vitally important in the grand scheme of things. But for talk sake you could find 50 players who have those specific traits who wouldn't be half as creative as Bruno.
All players are limited in some areas, does't mean they are limited players. Unless that phrase means something entirely different than it used to.
Scott McTominay is a limited player, Bruno Fernandes is not.
I'm more concerned about the performances. Top 4 isn't the goal. He needs to prove that he can have us playing a decent system. We currently average 51% possession and concede more shots than we shoot. That's not good enough, even with injuries. He needs to show that we can control and win games consistently. It's February, there's time, but as of right now, I'm firmly out on him.
Good post, exactly what i feel as well.
I do hope he proves me wrong the next months, but nothing indicates he will.
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Ah have you taken it as limited = poor?
I thought the poster was suggesting there are limits in his game that prevent him being the perfect modern creative player. His creativity is unquestionably world class. His work rate and durability too. But he’s not good at the things suggested.
Those positions have some relativity to the perception of the managers success but I think the most important element for Eth would be to fix the performances. The club have witnessed previous managers finish in very promising league places and still fail to build anything congruently because the performances throughout a sustained period has always demonstrated incomplete ingredients towards ascertaining sustainability. That ranges from Mourinho, to Ole and it's presently an issue with Eth.
Therefore, it's harder to determine what the direction is with Erik as a manager. People highlight good performances statistically by observing turnover percentages but that is reminiscent of saying a car drives well in a straight line, it's a very narrow assessment of objectively highlighting overall efficiency. You have to put the car in a multitude of different situations to measure it's general performance. It's the same with many peoples take on Liverpool being a transition team under Jurgen, yes they could press but equally they were one of the best teams in Europe and the league in possession, towards the phases of play and in many performances went toe to toe with City without capitulating.
When assessing United there's still a failure to control games against competitive teams, the commitment to the attack being unbalanced leaving spaces to be exploited and a poor goal difference which was always an allegory of last season given Rashford masked over those deficiencies with his form. Many many questions still unanswered.
What I view as a positive is that any decision for INEOS to back Erik has strong correspondence with his contract. That's why I don't see a scenario which many have defined on here with undertones of 'seeing how he works out', his contract predicament forces the hierarchy to make a decision in the next few months on does this manager fall in line with not only the ethical considerations of their vision but also the strategic ones vying to win. Omar has come from an environment that has churned a winning philosophy from what is approaching a decade, likewise Brailsford who I read subsumes to concepts such as aggregation of marginal gains, the summation is that the structure is being comprised of the best individuals in their respective positions to bring the club back to the optimum peak and does Erik have both the capacity and the capability to match that extent?
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I suspect he could win the PL or the CL and some on here would still want him out!
The phrase means the same thing. Bruno isn’t some world class midfielder that walks into any side in the world. He is a world class creator of course , but his drawbacks are obvious at this point and he’s part of the reason why we haven’t controlled a midfield since he’s signed, and constantly are under pressure against top teams (who he’s often poor against). It’s all connected, just wanking yourself to a Statman Dave graphic about how many chances Bruno created doesn’t change that. He puts a ceiling on your squad if you’re building the midfield around him.
I hate when people make comments like this
Some mad takes here. Shitting on our best player. Objectively one of the best creators in the world and hard working.
It's reality though
So what? Lots of managers have been fired at big clubs just after winning their league or the CL when they didn't seem to be the right one to carry their team forward. If United wants to return to the state of a true elite team that's something that has to be brought into the mindset of the club.
A manager's job isn't to win yesterday. It is to win tomorrow. Keeping or sacking a manager should only based on how well you expect him to do that.
Most of the posters are not denying that. However, him not being able to recognise when to speed things up, and when to keep it simple is a fact. Dictating game tempo.
Whats baffling is him saying that he won't change his style of play. It should not be up to him, rather, the coach to decide if some many dispossession per game outweigh his chance creations.
He will stay. Any decent DoF will offer him a chance because there are bits in our play that when you think about it might turn to elite level if he had personal. Take a break. Or have a wank.
There are things to be excited about in the mean time.
There are things to be excited about in the mean time.
Yes yes.. SAF was the point of that post. Yes yes. Trully. Bravo
Sancho has been as much useless as Antony, in fact his goal contributions last season (per 90') were better than Antony, so I would not be surprised if that was JS problem. Obviously, it does not explain his behaviour, I think ETH had full rights to kick him out, but it's hardly something we should praise him for. It was the obvious and correct decision, but what led to that "outbreak" we don't know.
Re-Rashford - it's not like I disagree, I just think it's a bit desperate to point out those things as "what ETH has done right in his 18 months with United".
That's my point exactly. We just have to admit we're a team reliant (too much) on individuals, and if those individuals don't deliver we fail. And once that happens, there's not much more left apart from turning to McTominay so save us once again with late run into the box.
This reliance on individuals has gotten us quite far last season (although you could see the drop second half), but this season we just failed miserably mainly due to Rashford massive drop in form. Did we really play that much better as a team last season? I don't think so, we just had Rashford who could push himself through 3 players and score every 1 in 2. It's not like we were a team that could build from the back, not any better than any PL team that is.
I believe ETH is not a good coach, maybe he's a good manager of people but his reliance on individuals is heavily affected by recruitment, which hasn't been that good recently. For those reasons, I hope we don't stick with him for another season.
Regarding previous discussion in this thread about Martinez/Shaw being key to how we play football and how they absence impacts similar way to City losing Rodri - that is a valid argument, HOWEVER, City level with Rodri is top class, they are well drilled and control games, while for us the difference is with Martinez/Shaw on the pitch we somehow "squeeze in" a result, but still have no control whatsoever. So, it's a poor excuse at this point of ETH regime.
I wish i could give you a thumb. Exellent post.
And i do agree its going to be interesting times going forward with INEOS.
I may come off as a ETH out person, but im more interested in developing the club to a place where we can compete on the highest lvl. Atleast start the process.
I feel ETH has made that part even more difficult with his recent transfers, and im unsure how we stand economically now. Fair Play taken into concideration.
Im imagining we have more or less capped our wages, and not much has changed quality wise. So we do have alot of work to do, to get where we need to be. To be diplomatic.
So the next year will be interesting to say the least. With our without ETH.
PS.Sorry for the engrish, not my language.
This is a fair post. Its about he we improve and look to compete, It will take time. It may or may not involve ETH, personally I think too many big issues around player judgement, tactics, game management etc. He has shown no real football style and the high turnover stats no longer apply, and they certainly don't translate into chances and in fact just make us more vulnerable. The obsession with a manager as the next messiah needs to stop. INEOS are showing that the path to success if built on firm foundations, the club will survive and hopefully challenge with or without ETH.
I'd be OK with him staying if he can get us to 4th. 5th I'd be on the fence, as we'd need to be bailed out by other English teams doing well in Europe (which we haven't really contributed to this year, heh). That'd represent a visible improvement over where we were in the first half of season.
However I'd still be realistic about expectations, he's a tier or two below top managers and will quite obviously never lead us to any major trophies (talking league win or CL win here, I don't count League Cup/FA Cup as major trophies). However as a stop gap to get us consistently to top 4 or thereabouts, while we figure things out at senior management level, improve squad and academy, he could actually be good enough for the next 2 years or so. It's also relative lack of top managers out in the market that we could realistically approach, there's no point firing him and making a sideways move to Potter or another decent but not great coach.
This is besides the point though. A subset want him out now, and even if he won a PL And CL, some would still want him out - that's his point.
In other words, even if people's views were proven wrong, they would be too entrenched in their view to think rationally about him.
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Guardiola has been at City since 2016, of course they are well drilled in his style of play.
Very quickly here’s what’s he walked into back then (I’ll only talk about bigger names/ expensive signings that have been brought in and out and prices are in euros because I can’t be bothered to convert it)
Guardiola confirmed Feb 2016 to start summer 2016. Prior to this City sign:
- De Brunye €76m
- Sterling €63.7m
- Otamendi €44.5m
IN
- Stones €55.6m
- Sane €52m
- Jesus €32m
- Gundogan €27m
- Bravo €18m
- Nolito €18m
- Jovetic €13.5m
- Dzeko €11m
- Nasri - loan
- Hart - loan
Bravo
Zabaleta/Jesus Kompany Stones/Otamendi Kolarov/Clichy
Fernandinho/Fernando
Gundogan/Toure De Brunye/David Silva
Sane/Foden Aguero/Jesus Sterling/Nolito
Zabaleta/Jesus Kompany Stones/Otamendi Kolarov/Clichy
Fernandinho/Fernando
Gundogan/Toure De Brunye/David Silva
Sane/Foden Aguero/Jesus Sterling/Nolito
Has Ten Hag walked into a side like this? Are there many players in that City squad you think are in dire need of replacement to play roughly how Guardiola wants? Or has a director of football laid the foundations for him to walk into a good set up (that of course he’s improved)?
I’m not sure exactly what is a fair grade for ETH but I’ve always felt that if United got its house in order, our worst years should be just getting maybe 4th and a QF CL exit REGARDLESS of manager.
Looks like INEOs actually have a competent plan , built around competent people with a pedigree of success. That will eventually start raising the standards throughout the club and filter into the squad/team on multiple levels.
I confidently predict, once the glazers don’t get control of football side again, in three years time the club will be a different beast.
That's not the point (to compare current Guardiola to current Ten Hag), Guardiola can play Sims on codes while Ten Hag MUST watch his budget (that's why Antony and Mount transfers are a problem, I would not care about that if we could spend all the money).
The point is a lot of people assume we just need Martinez/Shaw back to play proper football. That doesn't seem to be the case because even when they were available this season, we didn't look convincing at all - so it's nothing like "City also struggle without Rodri".
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But it’s a massive part of the point. It’s a massive reason why all of our managers have struggled to some degree.
What we need is a squad of players able to play the style Ten Hag wants. Do we have that? I’d say no. So we end up making ridiculous compromises like McTominay being a box crashing goal threat for us.
That’s our reality. We don’t have the squad of players to play that brand to a very high standard so we need to get those profiles into the club. We have a golden opportunity in the next 1/2 seasons to make this progress now with INEOS.
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And the few players we do have capable of playing that way Martinez, Shaw etc have been out injured.
That's ETH's level basically, a top 4 without really challenging for title - sometimes it will be 3rd, sometimes 4th, sometimes it may even be 2nd - depends on how other top 6 teams perform that year as proven before.
As for CL, it can be as far as we can get without playing any of the biggest teams - e.g. if we progressed from the groups and got teams like Leipzig/Porto/Benfica/Napoli in last 16 and QFs, we could make it into semifinals, but it depends on the draw. He's never beating Real, Bayern or City over two legs but could beat pretty most other teams (see Barca last year).
I don't disagree with your comment in general, I am just pointing out we have no evidence that with the key players fit we are going to be that much better. In fact we have some evidence to show we still look vulnerable as hell trying to play Ten Hag 23/23 ball.
Shaw and Martinez have only played five games together this season, though. We won four of them. I agree, they haven't been perfect wins or anything, but it does help having our two defenders most comfortable on the ball available, and they generally haven't been.
But he beat Real and Juventus over 2 legs at Ajax
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How many games have we played with those key plaueres together on the pitch?
The media v the actual quote 
Five years ago in one off season, then proceeded to be eliminated by lesser teams in all of the following seasons (Getafe, Benfica, Roma, Sevilla). Unlikely that he will repeat that.
All his best players got bought though. There's no point making stuff up because you don't like him.
He lost De Ligt and De Jong after that season but retained pretty much everyone else and was able to replace De Ligt with Martinez. Ajax were favorites going into all the knockout ties they lost and we were also favorites going into Sevilla tie last year.
I don’t see much evidence that he’s capable of consistently competing with good teams. He’s perfectly fine at disposing of lesser sides, and getting an occasional smash & grab win against a top team at home, which is fine because very few managers are capable of more.
Yes, below is the post I originally replied to. Maybe that's not what he meant, fair enough if so.
We all know Bruno isn’t perfect and has his faults. But for me he's the least of our worries guven what we have and need in other areas.
His drawbacks are exaggerated. Anyway it's a Ten Hag thread
If he doesn’t improve the style and tactics where we dominate and control matches then he needs moving on. The last three wins could have ended up draws, or losses. When you compare to Arsenal or Liverpool, never mind City, we are still miles away. You could even argue Spurs and Villa usually play better than us. I feel we are still a moments team and maybe the new team being built above the team, should include a new manager as well.
I would like to see what ETH can do at a functioning club at elite level before definitively writing him off. United has been a dysfunctional club since SAF left, its not really fair to judge any manager at "Disneyland Libya".
Maybe he wont get a chance at another top club, but you really cant know how good/bad a manager is from managing our sh*thole club under Glazers management. They completely infected the club after SAF left and fans have been focusing way too much on a GOAT manager fixing the dysfunction and blaming managers who have failed as much becasue the clubs a mess as anything to do with their own ability. Now we will hopefully finally get the most out of managers and the worst seasons going forward will be closer to our best seasons the last 10 years.
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