Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[BenitoSTARR]

Also @mu4c_20le sorry for being a bit bolshy with you earlier I thought you were trying to wum but you’re more reasonable than I first thought.

 

[DJ_21]

Should be winning the next 2 before crashing back down to reality when we play city.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Good post but I have to disagree with Onana. He’s too prone to switching off. Only 3 games since he did it against Wolves, and it just seems very vital for our success as a team to rely on him long term imo. He’s cost us so much this season overall and glimpses of hope is just not enough.

Difficult to say what needs fixing/improvement first but Onana would be on my personal list of players to replace. Casemiro (as he’s getting old) and Onana. Use Shaw in the center and find a good athletic left or right back that crosses well and who adds to the system or combines well with either Rashford or Garnacho.

Thank you.

Oh I’m still on the fence with Onana too and he scares the crap out of me. But I see what he’s doing for us in build up and it makes sense. He’s definitely one of the best in the world at the build up stuff. So I’m not fully backing him but I can see why he’s been signed and he massively benefits from Shaw and Martinez (or any ball playing defender being an outlet).

Great post this

Thank you

I find the rhetoric from some quite, quite incredible when we string together a few wins. Memories are short. And look where we are? And that's success? Building towards success? How many players would you keep for next season, really, and expect us to challenge for let's say, top three, and a deeep CL run? Who?

And some seem to forget that ETH has spent bucket-loads!

Now I see people posting that recruitment is not his job? I understand the new roles in clubs, but I know that Klopp and Pep, Ange and fair few others, buy the players that they want. And now some on here are saying that shouldn't be ETH's job? Because we have won three on the bounce?

How many players have played to their potential under ETH? Dalot has improved quite recently, Garnacho is learning... but who else?

If you're awaiting a fully-fit squad to choose from to win a league, Cup or the Champions League then you will be waiting a v v v long time. You have to build a squad and improve your players.

Let me ask two questions with those satisfied (all of a sudden) with ETH:

1: If we retain this squad, do you think we will improve next season?
2: And do you think we will get closer to the other teams who will also be looking to improve next season.

Because I am not convinced. We need a radical shift to achieve the consistent level of performance that befits this club. £400m hasn't done it yet under ETH. I don't hate the guy, I just think he talks a good game and still isn't clear what he wants Man Utd first XI to be, or play etc.

I’d keep:
Onana
Dalot
Martinez
Shaw
Mainoo
Bruno
Garnacho
Rashford
Højlund

They are all good enough. But this just shows how much the squad needs when we don’t have the right profile of CB as back up, CDM, CM don’t have the right physicality and we don’t have a back up striker either.

That is not Ten Hag’s fault he is not a director of football.

In terms of your questions:

1. What a stupid question. We will make signings and let players go in the summer. It is a pointless question to ask so ask a better one and I’ll answer.
2. If we recruit sensibly then yes. We need more physicality in central areas. A bit more pace and power combined with technique. So give us a top athletic CB, DM and another CM and we’ll be on the way. Throw in a back up CF and I’d be pretty happy with that summer. We won’t win the title but we’d be making a step in the right direction
   

Our squad still needs major work. And stop gap loan signings or 30+ year old free agents won’t fix it long term.

This is a great post and sums up my feelings on ETH perfectly.

I understand people are frustrated with results but there have been so many mitigating circumstances this season. We all saw what this team is capable of last season and I do believe injuries are the cause of the poor performances this year.

Unlucky that Martinez and possibly Shaw are now out again as that left hand side is the key to our good performances and 'unlocking' Rashford again

Thank you

Please book mark this. As fans, we don't have patience. I know a poster who went against Ralf after 3 weeks . This is the situation we are in.

ETH deserves a fair shot with some stable hierarchy above him.

Thank you

I love your posts.....

I would add, when he joined our world record defender, Maguire, looked entirely like a busted flush. Regardless of whether ETH wanted him offloaded in the summer, Maguires performances in November and in last game (that looks like hes gonnd continue on his form) actually make him a valuable player to the squad and potentially if we sell. I wouldnt sell Maguire (if hes ok with 3rd choice CB) and would expect 40mil at least if he goes, thats fantastic when you think of him being booed by his own idiotic fans in friendlies.

Ive also not seen a recovery (of sorts) that we look like we might be getting. Unde Jose/Ole it got to the stage where it was really toxic, but there was no mitigating reasons that can reasonably be accounted for with ETH.

What managers in the EPL have had in their first 13 months:

- Savage Injury crisis, I cant remember it being this bad, not just that people quoting other clubs as if "look at that club missing players" is the same. Hard to quantify, but even if you look at Martinez returning, hes out again, Shaw is out again. Same thing happened with maguire when he was playing great and he got injured, we have had NO luck with injuries.
- Club future up in air 5 months into ETH joining the club , which by default does raise questions about managers position (as new owners sometimes replace managers regardless of what they are doing)
- Individual player dramas, 4, within 13 months arriving at the club
- Taking over a club "in crisis"
-Taking the blame for transfers, at a club with a terrible transfer record, including the over paying for players, that same club has FFP issues because of how poorly its been run, but "spending 80 mil in Anthony" is quoted as the problem
- a club thats equally sh*t at squad management, but manager is supposedly at fault for not having a striker or getting Weghorst or signing certain loan players as if he had an open chequebook
- Club is relying on 1 fit striker all season, an unproven 20 year old who never played in the league and who joined injured
- Manager has needed 3 players Under 21 to be consistent starters - says it all about the squad mismanagement that we needed it, but not just that, every other decent top club would have strong senior alternatives to be able to take these players out of the firing line (particularly as youth players are notoriously inconsistent), our manager has to suck it up
- Arguably clubs best attacking player last season struggling badly with some sort of innner demons that nobody is blaming on manager
- Expectations at united, last year we over achieved, this year is probably more like one would of expected last season, but "400 million spent" so expectation is that the graph of improvement should be linear upwards regardless of all the other variables at play
- Spurs manager, Brighton manager, "that manager over there hes better this week" shite every f**king week, relentless bullsh*t hyperbolic over reaction

In terms of transfers, theres an argument that his ones have actually been the most successful overall. Look back to 2013 and find me 2 transfer summers where we had the kinds of signings like Martinez, Casemiro and Hoijland ? I think Onana is improving and nobody can blame ETH that Mount and Malacia have been injured (no matter how much they complain). I think our hit rate with players is pathetic, ETH is better then that so I am not sure why people are making so much about it as if United usually gets its transfers spot on.

I would also add that the issue with United is that we have had so many poor transfers over the last decade, that ETH is the one now having to deal with it. FFP is not a manager problem, its how the club has been conducting itself in purchases/sales.

And if anybody thinks this post is something like "ETH is infallible, he has been perfect and irreproachable", then dont reply becasue thats what dumb people think and you dont want to look dumb. I think ETH entire tenure at United has been filled with unparrallelled issues that no manager is having to navigate in such a short period of time. I dont think hes perfect, but I also dont think he has been able to really show us what he can do becasue of issues (many which arent his fault) that have worked significantly against him.

Thank you.

And for what it’s worth I’ve enjoyed yours too!

I love this post; I think ETH is doing a good job as well, certainly more good than bad!

Thank you

Well done @BenitoSTARR. Enjoyed reading that.

Thanks a bit of a long one but if we’re arguing in good faith here worth addressing these points.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

For some the performance is more important than actually winning, I'm not one of them, winning is what matters, a good performance is the icing on the cake

That’s a completely valid POV when you’re a title contending team or a team looking to take the final step to Europes elite and in 3/4 competitions. Those teams can afford good results without good performances because generally the latter is quite consistent so the results come on top.

When you’re in 6th with 0 GD and out of all comps but the FA cup, looking at the performance or *why* we might have gotten good results recently is important. Because fluking wins on variance is nice in the moment but doesn’t signal any progress forward if we still get dominated by any good team.

Everyone is bitching about the “moaners” in here after a great run of results, but simply closing our eyes and just worrying about wins no matter how poor the performance was is how you end up getting spanked 7-0 again or some other similar shock result when the variance doesn’t go our way and we get exposed. Especially going into a crucial summer under new footballing management where a lot of decisions will need to be made, if we are going to continue with ETH for a 3rd season there needs to be a sign of progress past just “oh our forwards are in good form so we are scoring/winning even if we are being outplayed”. I mean feck, everyone in preseason pretty much agreed that Top 4, getting out of UCL groups, and improved consistent performances and progress were sufficient goals for the season. Well the first is looking like a hell of a longshot, the second was a complete failure, and now people want us to completely look past the third because the results have now improved. Well that’s a valid thing to do in year 1, but at some point in year 2 the team/tactics/manager are what they are and we have to decide whether that’s good enough.

United historically both as a fanbase and as a club has always tended to be far more forgiving and willing to give time to everyone than many other clubs, and post SAF this has come to hurt us repeatedly with both managers and players who quite early on showed they aren’t up to standard, but we kept on anyways over some romantic thought of them “coming good”. Just once I’d like to see us proactively make ruthless decisions as opposed to constantly reacting to bad situations after they become utterly untenable for all parties involved.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

@Valencia Shin Crosses

1. Name United’s strongest current XI
2. Count how many times we’ve played that side this season.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

@Valencia Shin Crosses

1. Name United’s strongest current XI
2. Count how many times we’ve played that side this season.

If the only way you can play a certain way is through the absolute first choice XI, then the philosophy is flawed.

But if your only rebuttal is to just cite the injuries then that’s fine. Do it to your heart’s desire I guess.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

If the only way you can play a certain way is through the absolute first choice XI, then the philosophy is flawed.

But if your only rebuttal is to just cite the injuries then that’s fine. Do it to your heart’s desire I guess.

It’s not the only way to play.

It’s a simple question why won’t you answer it?

I’ll make it easier:

1. Name United’s strongest current XI.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

It’s not the only way to play.

It’s a simple question why won’t you answer it?

I’ll make it easier:

1. Name United’s strongest current XI.

Because as I said, you’re deliberately acting like a cnut asking a question you and I both know the answer to because you’re trying to make the point that much of the season should be counted as a wash because of our early injury crisis.

 

[Leftback99]

Villa and Spurs haven't had their best XIs available all season yet still have more points and +18/15 goal difference on us.

 

[Giggsy13]

16 players is a bit misleading. ETH's transfers have actually been mostly fine - Antony is the stick to beat him with and Mount we really don't know about him as an 8 - otherwise point me towards the signings we have made that are starters and have nit improved us?
Hojlund. The bar is low given it was old Ronnie, Wout and the crock monsieur he is comparing with. Undeniably better in my opinion.
Casemiro. We know not his first choice but was instrumental last season and is still a very good player, an actual DM.
Martinez. Just class.
Onana. Think it's quite clear whether or not you rate him he is in the mould of what we should be looking for. Just look at the stats in the league to how vital he is for us. DDG post WC was a shambles bar an ok season last year. For some context, the last time DDG bettered (or even came close to) the level Onana is playing at in the league from a PSxG perspective was 17/18. Tells you a lot about the selective memory of many of our fans.

That's really it...Malacia, Evans, Bayandir, Eriksen, Amrabat, Wout, Dubravka etc are all squad players, loans or frees. Those that have played have generally been good/useful.

Malacia was signed for a nominal fee but it doesn’t take away from your analysis, which is spot on. Antony is ten Hag’s only real failure and a lot of that is due to a lack of footballing structure, which would have blocked the move from happening. Mount hasn’t played enough to judge whether it was a good or bad signing.

What’s also being missed by many detractors is the work ten Hag has done in managing Garnacho and Mainoo. It takes good man management to shield and develops young players at a massive club.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Because as I said, you’re deliberately acting like a cnut asking a question you and I both know the answer to because you’re trying to make the point that much of the season should be counted as a wash because of our early injury crisis.

No need for the language.

I have answered every single question thrown at me (and there have been numerous) so it’s surely not too much to ask you to humour me here. Otherwise you’re not really arguing in good faith or you know I’ve got a really good point that you don’t want to concede.

I’ve already said Ten Hag hasn’t been infallible.

So I’ll ask again.

1. Name United’s strongest current XI

 

[Stobzilla]

5 out of the next 6 are extremely winnable games. We need, at the very least, 13 points from the next 18 available to be in with a shot of 4th.

 

[Stinkypete]

Villa and Spurs haven't had their best XIs available all season yet still have more points and +18/15 goal difference on us.

We haven't had our best xi available for 20 plus game weeks.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Villa and Spurs haven't had their best XIs available all season yet still have more points and +18/15 goal difference on us.

Ok. But the level of injury they have had hasn’t come close to ours in both duration and number of injuries.

So same question to you:

1. Name United’s strongest current XI
2. Count how many times we’ve played that side this season.

 

[Leftback99]

Ok. But the level of injury they have had hasn’t come close to ours in both duration and number of injuries.

So same question to you:

1. Name United’s strongest current XI
2. Count how many times we’ve played that side this season.

He's only just worked out that Garnacho works on the right so it's irrelevant. That's the single biggest change in our recent improved goalscoring form. Not Casemiro coming back.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

He's only just worked out that Garnacho works on the right so it's irrelevant. That's the single biggest change in our recent improved goalscoring form. Not Casemiro coming back.

Ok. I’ll make it easier for you too.

1. Name United’s strongest XI.

I’m sure you have worked it out far sooner than Ten Hag. So what do you think it is?

 

[sparx99]

Villa and Spurs haven't had their best XIs available all season yet still have more points and +18/15 goal difference on us.

That’s a fair argument but both teams dropped points as their injuries piled up while we have started to play better as players have come back. The gap has closed and we’ve beaten Villa home and away.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

That’s a fair argument but both teams dropped points as their injuries piled up while we have started to play better as players have come back. The gap has closed and we’ve beaten Villa home and away.

Villa losing Pau Torres was key in their loss to Newcastle and the loss of Konsa and Kamara will be big for them too.

Almost like losing key players without the squad depth to cover impacts sides.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Ok. I’ll make it easier for you too.

1. Name United’s strongest XI.

I’m sure you have worked it out far sooner than Ten Hag. So what do you think it is?

Onana

AWB (could make the case for Dalot)
Martinez
Varane
Shaw

Casemiro
Mainoo
Bruno

Garnacho
Hojlund
Rashford

 

[Matt851]

100%. I can’t believe some expect us to dominate a legitimate top 4 contender away from home when they already have wins against Arsenal and city. Delusional and irrational perfectly describes the miserable section of our supporters who want ten Hag to fail.

We exhibited all the same failings we have done against piss poor teams. And our record against top half teams away from home is abysmal but I suppose expecting our manager to deliver more than one win against a decent team away from home is expecting too much

 

[Leftback99]

Villa losing Pau Torres was key in their loss to Newcastle and the loss of Konsa and Kamara will be big for them too.

Almost like losing key players without the squad depth to cover impacts sides.

Like I said before it's not a ground breaking argument you've got there. I've repeated that quality players are more important than any manager many times. It's doesn't excuse just how poor our performances are though.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Like I said before it's not a ground breaking argument you've got there. I've repeated that quality players are more important than any manager many times. It's doesn't excuse just how poor our performances are though.

Borderline oxymoronic.

 

[lex talionis]

If the man is able to navigate us back to a top four finish we may have to consider keeping him in the job. But of course he will at that point demand a contract extension as he'll be going into his last season under the current contract. Fine, give him a one season contract extension with an option for a second year.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Onana

AWB (could make the case for Dalot)
Martinez
Varane
Shaw

Casemiro
Mainoo
Bruno

Garnacho
Hojlund
Rashford

@Leftback99 do you think this is the best XI we could put out assuming everyone is fit?

 

[Leftback99]

@Leftback99 do you think this is the best XI we could put out assuming everyone is fit?

No

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Onana

AWB (could make the case for Dalot)
Martinez
Varane
Shaw

Casemiro
Mainoo
Bruno

Garnacho
Hojlund
Rashford

Thank you @Big Ben Foster are there any others you think are close calls other than AWB vs Dalot?

I’ll wait for a few more responses before responding in full if that’s ok but I appreciate you sharing.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

No

Ok so what would you say is?

 

[Leftback99]

Ok so what would you say is?

Maguire for Varane.

 

[wolvored]

I mean for United...I don't care how he did previously. Point being, I think most have forgotten how bad DDG was post WC on the whole and are merging their memories of him when he was an absolute beast between the sticks and the sharp decline we saw from 18/19 onwards.

I agree De Gea had to go I just dont see Onana as a big step up for the £55 mill Utd paid for him. Unless he improves a lot I can see him being a one or two season goalie and moved on. He played well against Villa, so lets hope he can keep it up.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Onana

AWB (could make the case for Dalot)
Martinez
Varane
Shaw

Casemiro
Mainoo
Bruno

Garnacho
Hojlund
Rashford

This is easily our best XI. And Dalot is the sole point of debate in my opinion as rightly pointed out.

Edit. And the Slab.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Maguire for Varane.

So just confirming that’s the side?

Onana
AWB Maguire Martinez Shaw
Casemiro Mainoo
Garnacho Bruno Rashford
Højlund​

 

[Leftback99]

So just confirming that’s the side?

Onana
AWB Maguire Martinez Shaw
Casemiro Mainoo
Garnacho Bruno Rashford
Højlund​

Yep and a count of how many times it's been available won't prove anything.

 

[Sarni]

Ok. But the level of injury they have had hasn’t come close to ours in both duration and number of injuries.

So same question to you:

1. Name United’s strongest current XI
2. Count how many times we’ve played that side this season.

It actually has, especially for Spurs.

 

[Sarni]

Yep and a count of how many times it's been available won't prove anything.

I wonder how many teams in the league have actually had their full first choice XI available for more than 5 games. Won’t be many I bet.

 

[DJ_21]

He's only just worked out that Garnacho works on the right so it's irrelevant. That's the single biggest change in our recent improved goalscoring form. Not Casemiro coming back.

Casemiro coming back as surely helped the attack in some way though? It means there more protected behind them when he plays. Also his passing forward helps a lot. Agree that Garnacho on the right makes us click a lot better though in attack.

 

[Leftback99]

I wonder how many teams in the league have actually had their full first choice XI available for more than 5 games. Won’t be many I bet.

It's definitely not as common as people think. Arsenal won 6-0 away at the weekend with Kiwior at left back and Trossard up front.Tonight was the first time City played their best front 5 all season.

 

[DJ_21]

Onana

AWB (could make the case for Dalot)
Martinez
Varane
Shaw

Casemiro
Mainoo
Bruno

Garnacho
Hojlund
Rashford

This is currently our strongest 11. Mainoo wasn’t even near the first team at the start of the season though so I guess having injuries sometimes works out in your favour as it’s a chance for a youngster to impress who would have never got a chance if all our first team stars was fit and available.

 

[Leftback99]

Casemiro coming back as surely helped the attack in some way though? It means there more protected behind them when he plays. Also his passing forward helps a lot. Agree that Garnacho on the right makes us click a lot better though in attack.

Set pieces his main benefit. The defence does not look more protected in open play. We're conceding shots for fun.

 

[DJ_21]

Set pieces his main benefit. The defence does not look more protected in open play. We're conceding shots for fun.

True. That’s a manager issue though, tactics.

 

[mu4c_20le]

16 players is a bit misleading. ETH's transfers have actually been mostly fine - Antony is the stick to beat him with and Mount we really don't know about him as an 8 - otherwise point me towards the signings we have made that are starters and have nit improved us?
Hojlund. The bar is low given it was old Ronnie, Wout and the crock monsieur he is comparing with. Undeniably better in my opinion.
Casemiro. We know not his first choice but was instrumental last season and is still a very good player, an actual DM.
Martinez. Just class.
Onana. Think it's quite clear whether or not you rate him he is in the mould of what we should be looking for. Just look at the stats in the league to how vital he is for us. DDG post WC was a shambles bar an ok season last year. For some context, the last time DDG bettered (or even came close to) the level Onana is playing at in the league from a PSxG perspective was 17/18. Tells you a lot about the selective memory of many of our fans.

That's really it...Malacia, Evans, Bayandir, Eriksen, Amrabat, Wout, Dubravka etc are all squad players, loans or frees. Those that have played have generally been good/useful.

Antony - Mount - Onana. That's almost 200m right there. No one said all his signings were bad, but we really could have used that money better.