Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Agree that injuries might impact on quality, but there should be some sort of system in place that replacements just slot into.
Our squad is a hodgepodge of people we can't sell, remnants from previous managers with contrasting styles, and youth players.

Having a system like that requires forward planning at a club level, we absolutely have not had that.

I personally think Ten Hag should have gone into defensive mode for the Xmas period to just try and hang on for dear life until we had some people back in Jan, but I'm sure people would have given out stink about that too.
 
Do you genuinely think you have figured out things that Ten Hag can't see?
I don't think any fan believes that EtH doesn't see the problems at all. But it's pretty clear that they don't like his approach to fixing them. EtH seems to believe that his ideas will work if better or more consistently applied, many fans here don't share that belief.
 
Our squad is a hodgepodge of people we can't sell, remnants from previous managers with contrasting styles, and youth players.

Having a system like that requires forward planning at a club level, we absolutely have not had that.

I personally think Ten Hag should have gone into defensive mode for the Xmas period to just try and hang on for dear life until we had some people back in Jan, but I'm sure people would have given out stink about that too.
Definitely agree about planning. I know you want to help a new manager out, but when prices rise to ridiculous amount, then you have to say no, we are not paying that. That is where the scouting network comes in, we have one apparently and you look at the players they have come up with. Instead we overspent which then impacts on this seasons spending. It is a complete shambles.
 
I don't think any fan believes that EtH doesn't see the problems at all. But it's pretty clear that they don't like his approach to fixing them. EtH seems to believe that his ideas will work if better or more consistently applied, many fans here don't share that belief.
My opinion on that is that everyone and their mother has the same opinion on our midfield, so the management team clearly can see the same thing that we do.

We have basically no info on why the team is being set up in a given way other than watching the games, and with the proviso that the manager knows everything we do plus a lot more, there must be a reason for him to set up the team in this way.

I don't personally understand it, as we have looked better defensively in different setups, but I acknowledge that Ten Hag has seen this as well, and is still deciding to do it a certain way, so there is probably a reason why.

I have already posted loads of times about that midfield setup, but I don't see the point in coming at it from the angle of 'Ten Hag is a moron, I would do x', when clearly we know feck all in comparison to him.
 
It just struck me, if you say lost 14 games in 5 months it means an average of almost losing 3 games every month. It is just beyond pathetic. Worst run in almost a century.
Actually when you break it down like that it is quite chilling. That is not acceptable at any ambitious club. We are United, not Everton, West Ham or Palace. The ship needs to turn quickly or we will disappear into mediocrity. Beating villa and not losing to Liverpool means nothing when we roll over to likes of Forest and Bournemouth.
 
Actually when you break it down like that it is quite chilling. That is not acceptable at any ambitious club. We are United, not Everton, West Ham or Palace. The ship needs to turn quickly or we will disappear into mediocrity. Beating villa and not losing to Liverpool means nothing when we roll over to likes of Forest and Bournemouth.

Tbf there's not much of a difference between the fanbases. We're a huge club because with the resources and history of the biggest in Europe, but with a fanbase that is closer in culture, drive and attitude to Crystal Palace than Real Madrid.
 
Real Madrid had an injury crisis that same season too. There were articles about it and everything. But the club only finished 3 points behind the previous season's tally in the league. In the Champions League, they advanced further than in the previous two seasons, making it to the semi-finals. They played Liverpool in the QF and comfortably beat them. Injuries took their toll, no doubt (worse quality, comfortably beat in CL SFs by Chelsea, no titles won), but results were not catastrophic. You can chalk it up to "PL is more competitive" but the CL results are there too. That RM squad was also worse than Liverpool's.

It's not that injuries don't have an effect. They do. But the effect is not so strong and deterministic that "injuries equals collapse". A lot of things go into it. Klopp is not beyond criticism, it is entirely possible that he is a great manager who struggles with handling injury problems.

Take a look at your lineup vs Liverpool that year and then a look at our average lineup during all these injuries. You had a midfield of Kroos, Casemiro and Modric all in their prime. Benzema up front.

There simply isn't a comparison to be made with United at this point.

Unless the criticism of ETH is that he should have an XI or squad somewhere around the quality of Madrid's.
 
31 points from 20 games. Roughly 1.5 ppg. Even if we score 2 ppg from next 18 games , it Will take us to 67 points and that's probably 5 or 6 or 7.
He will be gone in summer probably a mutual agreement.
 
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Take a look at your lineup vs Liverpool that year and then a look at our average lineup during all these injuries. You had a midfield of Kroos, Casemiro and Modric all in their prime. Benzema up front.

There simply isn't a comparison to be made with United at this point.

Unless the criticism of ETH is that he should have an XI or squad somewhere around the quality of Madrid's.
If Ten Hag didn't insist on buying shite players we'd certainly be closer to the quality of Madrid, instead of fecking light years away
 
31 points from 20 games. Roughly 1.5 ppg. Even if we score 2 ppg from next 18 games , it Will take us to 67 points and that's probably 5 or 6 or 7.
He will be leave in summer probably a mutual agreement.

So, roughly the same as Liverpool last season then. With a lot more injuries.
 
Take a look at your lineup vs Liverpool that year and then a look at our average lineup during all these injuries. You had a midfield of Kroos, Casemiro and Modric all in their prime. Benzema up front.

There simply isn't a comparison to be made with United at this point.

Unless the criticism of ETH is that he should have an XI or squad somewhere around the quality of Madrid's.

It's a pretty weak defence of the manager. I don't think anyone would expect him to win every match and keep us at the top of the table, but he shouldn't be losing to most of the teams beating us. When we're not getting the basics right, like defending a cutback, we're naively throwing Scott McTominay forward and leaving a gaping hole in midfield. You'd expect these injuries to derail a top-three finish but not a total collapse. We looked pretty goddamn awful before the crisis, too, for the last eleven months, if truth be told.
 
It's a pretty weak defence of the manager. I don't think anyone would expect him to win every match and keep us at the top of the table, but he shouldn't be losing to most of the teams beating us. When we're not getting the basics right, like defending a cutback, we're naively throwing Scott McTominay forward and leaving a gaping hole in midfield. You'd expect these injuries to derail a top-three finish but not a total collapse. We looked pretty goddamn awful before the crisis, too, for the last eleven months, if truth be told.

It's not an explanation for everything but its far from a weak excuse. Managers need players. Their results are dictated by the players on the pitch. They're not magicians.
 
So, roughly the same as Liverpool last season then. With a lot more injuries.

Excellent observation.

Unfortunately, Liverpool went: 91 points and CL final -> shite season -> title challenge.

We're just doing the middle bit.

We also finished 11th under Fergie. Might as well throw that in if your entire argument is "Look another good manager also had a bad season".
 
Excellent observation.

Unfortunately, Liverpool went: 91 points and CL final -> shite season -> title challenge.

We're just doing the middle bit.

We also finished 11th under Fergie. Might as well throw that in if your entire argument is "Look another good manager also had a bad season".
Yeah let's just lower the bar to the worst anyone has ever done and pretend it's all OK.
 
Excellent observation.

Unfortunately, Liverpool went: 91 points and CL final -> shite season -> title challenge.

We're just doing the middle bit.

We also finished 11th under Fergie. Might as well throw that in if your entire argument is "Look another good manager also had a bad season".

Thanks, I'll do that next time. Because yes, it is. Sometimes good managers have bad seasons. It doesn't make them bad managers. Especially when their entire team has been decimated by injuries.
 
Thanks, I'll do that next time. Because yes, it is. Sometimes good managers have bad seasons. It doesn't make them bad managers. Especially when their entire team has been decimated by injuries.
Last season was Ok at best. We won the tin pot cup that most teams fielded reserves in. We consistently fielded close to our strongest team and no doubt that contributed to our injuries. We were awful for much of H2 and awful first few games when most players were fit. He's an average manager at best who has failed outside of the tiny pond that is the Dutch league. The fact that was allowed to recruit almost exclusively form that same second rate league is criminal. Sick of people defending him, its embarrassing. Any idea what we are trying to do on the pitch? Why we signed Mount? Or paid £85m for Antony? Or played Weghorst ahead of Elenga? The list goes on.
 
So, roughly the same as Liverpool last season then. With a lot more injuries.
Well if he can achieve 2 ppg for the rest of the season, he deserves another season for sure. Point being, with injured players back and only one match per week, there shouldn't be any more excuses come end of the season.
 
Well if he can achieve 2 ppg for the rest of the season, he deserves another season for sure. Point being, with injured players back and only one match per week, there shouldn't be any more excuses come end of the season.
Why though? That would be a 67 point season, probably finishing 6th or 7th, while not passing the group stages of UCL.

It will be an improvement of the first half of the season, but hardly great.

I think the only way he should get the third season is if we show a title-winning form for the remaining matches. Which would probably give us 4th but at least show that there is a chance he can compete. 2 points per game is not that, especially not after spending 400m and the horror form he showed in the first 20 matches. So if his bottom level is as bad, we cannot continue with him if he shows that his top level is just ok.
 
Why though? That would be a 67 point season, probably finishing 6th or 7th, while not passing the group stages of UCL.

It will be an improvement of the first half of the season, but hardly great.

I think the only way he should get the third season is if we show a title-winning form for the remaining matches. Which would probably give us 4th but at least show that there is a chance he can compete. 2 points per game is not that, especially not after spending 400m and the horror form he showed in the first 20 matches. So if his bottom level is as bad, we cannot continue with him if he shows that his top level is just ok.

Because if we get most players back and have a strong second half to the season its pretty conclusive proof injuries were the majority of the problem.

Expecting him to get title winning point rate from Jan onwards is too high. He hasn't got a title winning quality team.
 
It's not an explanation for everything but its far from a weak excuse. Managers need players. Their results are dictated by the players on the pitch. They're not magicians.
Can you honestly say player for player that Nottingham Forest are a better side than us and we should be expected to lose? What about the likes of Copenhagen and Galatasaray? You can always use it to explain a game or two but it just keeps happening, that's the issue. Not to mention other teams have injuries as well. Injuries are a factor but in the context of this terrible season they are a weak excuse for the manager as well. Our problems obviously go far deeper than injuries.
 
Why though? That would be a 67 point season, probably finishing 6th or 7th, while not passing the group stages of UCL.

It will be an improvement of the first half of the season, but hardly great.

I think the only way he should get the third season is if we show a title-winning form for the remaining matches. Which would probably give us 4th but at least show that there is a chance he can compete. 2 points per game is not that, especially not after spending 400m and the horror form he showed in the first 20 matches. So if his bottom level is as bad, we cannot continue with him if he shows that his top level is just ok.
I would like to break the season into two parts. The first half with lot of injuries and the second half with a fully fit squad. I am willing to write off the first half because he hasn't had any of his new signings available for more than 5 matches (at the same time). So obviously his tactics isn't working because he just don't have his players available.

Now if he achieves 2 ppg for next 18 matches, it will give us 76 points over the season which is good enough for top 4 in any normal season.

Given how he delivered us a top 3 and a cup, I think he deserves another season.
 
Because if we get most players back and have a strong second half to the season its pretty conclusive proof injuries were the majority of the problem.

Expecting him to get title winning point rate from Jan onwards is too high. He hasn't got a title winning quality team.
We've had our full strength attack available for large parts of this season, and still only scored 22 in 20. What conclusive proof are you looking for exactly? Are you expecting Martinez and Mount to start scoring and assisting for fun?

There are fundamental issues with the entire setup of the team that have sod all to do with injuries
 
Because if we get most players back and have a strong second half to the season its pretty conclusive proof injuries were the majority of the problem.

Expecting him to get title winning point rate from Jan onwards is too high. He hasn't got a title winning quality team.
It would also show that when he has the full squad, has no other matches cause checked out of cup competitions early, he can give to us what Ole gave. Which we agreed it was not that good.

So after 400m spent, 2 seasons of coaching, I think doing better than Ole is not too much to ask. Especially if we give to him amnesty for the worst half a season in the last 30 years.
 
Because if we get most players back and have a strong second half to the season its pretty conclusive proof injuries were the majority of the problem.

Expecting him to get title winning point rate from Jan onwards is too high. He hasn't got a title winning quality team.
We should be looking beyond just the point accumulation unless that 2ppg comes with quality football creating lots of good chances while keeping stable defense otherwise it would just be delaying the inevitable .
 
We've had our full strength attack available for large parts of this season, and still only scored 22 in 20. What conclusive proof are you looking for exactly? Are you expecting Martinez and Mount to start scoring and assisting for fun?

There are fundamental issues with the entire setup of the team that have sod all to do with injuries

I mean if you discount Greenwood and Sancho you could say we've had our first choice attack available.

But I agree the goaldcoring problems can't be put down to just injuries. It was only a 3 month spell from Rashford last season that stopped us from a goal drought.

I don't know what conclusive proof would would like but if we start to look solid again, start to score a regular amount of goals, get a ppg ratio that puts us top 4, I think that would be fair enough.

It'd show us injuries were the primary factor. Therefore he deserves another shot.

If that doesn't happen, he should go in the summer.

It would also show that when he has the full squad, has no other matches cause checked out of cup competitions early, he can give to us what Ole gave. Which we agreed it was not that good.

So after 400m spent, 2 seasons of coaching, I think doing better than Ole is not too much to ask. Especially if we give to him amnesty for the worst half a season in the last 30 years.

He hasn't got a title winning team. You can't exepct title winning point tally from here ill the end of the season.

We should be looking beyond just the point accumulation unless that 2ppg comes with quality football creating lots of good chances while keeping stable defense otherwise it would just be delaying the inevitable .

Totally agree. All that has to happen to dismiss all the doubts. There'll be no excuses.
 
Can you honestly say player for player that Nottingham Forest are a better side than us and we should be expected to lose? What about the likes of Copenhagen and Galatasaray? You can always use it to explain a game or two but it just keeps happening, that's the issue. Not to mention other teams have injuries as well. Injuries are a factor but in the context of this terrible season they are a weak excuse for the manager as well. Our problems obviously go far deeper than injuries.

No Forest haven't got a better side but that's not how football always works. You don't automatically win games because on paper your team is 10% better.

When there isn't a sizeable gap between the teams anything can happen in football. That's how it is.

The problem is fans still believing thes players are better than what they are.

In Rashford and Antony we had two players on the pitch whose performances belong in relegation fighting teams. A 19 year old winger, an 18 year old CM, a 37 year old CB. A right back that can't pass further than 20 yard.

We can debate who is that down to but once the whistle goes that United team on the pitch isn't miles ahead of the Forest team.
 
I mean if you discount Greenwood and Sancho you could say we've had our first choice attack available.

But I agree the goaldcoring problems can't be put down to just injuries. It was only a 3 month spell from Rashford last season that stopped us from a goal drought.

I don't know what conclusive proof would would like but if we start to look solid again, start to score a regular amount of goals, get a ppg ratio that puts us top 4, I think that would be fair enough.

It'd show us injuries were the primary factor. Therefore he deserves another shot.

If that doesn't happen, he should go in the summer.



He hasn't got a title winning team. You can't exepct title winning point tally from here ill the end of the season.



Totally agree. All that has to happen to dismiss all the doubts. There'll be no excuses.
When Casemiro was in the team people were saying his legs have gone. And we were still losing.

When Mount was in the team he was getting torn apart for being shite and another terrible signing.

Martial, what needs to be said.

When Shaw was in the team we were playing no better.

Malacia. He's mediocre at best

Harry Maguire. Constantly ridiculed and should be sold, seems to be the general consensus

Martinez. The only real big loss. Good player

So, once we get all of these wonderful players back (assuming we're living in a fantasy land and we never get anymore injuries, ever) , we're going to start playing fast, free flowing attacking football yeah? Do you really need to wait until everyone is fit before you come to the realisation the manager is subpar?
 
When Casemiro was in the team people were saying his legs have gone. And we were still losing.

When Mount was in the team he was getting torn apart for being shite and another terrible signing.

Martial, what needs to be said.

When Shaw was in the team we were playing no better.

Malacia. He's mediocre at best

Harry Maguire. Constantly ridiculed and should be sold, seems to be the general consensus

Martinez. The only real big loss. Good player

So, once we get all of these wonderful players back (assuming we're living in a fantasy land and we never get anymore injuries, ever) , we're going to start playing fast, free flowing attacking football yeah? Do you really need to wait until everyone is fit before you come to the realisation the manager is subpar?

Where did I say we'll be playing fast free flowing football? Can you show me the quote?

I think Mount, Casemiro, Amad, Martinez, Maguire, Shaw, all together, create a much stronger pool of players and ETH should be fully judged when he has most of those players.
 
A ridiculous injury crisis is not some elaborate and far fetched excuse. I'm happy to blame him for a lot of things, but I also realise I'm a football fan that knows absolutely nothing about management in comparison to the manager.

You sit there watching from the couch and think you've spotted something that he can't see, with absolutely no knowledge of what is going on day to day at the club, what they are doing in training etc.
Do you genuinely think you have figured out things that Ten Hag can't see?

My opinion is that Ten Hag is a good manager, he might not be at the level we need, but he hasn't had anything close to a fair chance to show what he can do this season. The club is in a state of transition overall, and there is no point in sacking him until we are properly set up.

That would also give him a fair chance with a full squad, which would ultimately tell us if he's at the required level, or not.

One bad season does not make a bad manager, our fans just shit the bed every time anything goes wrong and want to move on to the next thing, which clearly hasn't worked for us in the past decade.

It's painful to watch our team at the moment, but there are sparks of the sort of football I want to watch, if we get our starting 11 back together for a number of games and we don't start to see more of it, I'm happy to admit that he isn't the manager we hoped he would be.

Fair point but the entire fam base wouldn’t trust his transfer suggestions or his valuations of them. That’s a pretty difficult spot to be in for a manager who you expect to bring success. Not sure any manager with so little trust has succeeded after that at the top level.
 
He hasn't got a title winning team. You can't exepct title winning point tally from here ill the end of the season.
He has the fourth best team in the league, easily. If we give to him amnesty for burning half a season, then he should give us reward for being great in the other half.

So essentially for me it is:

Great half followed by great half -> awesome manager, we likely win the league and not cause of a fluke, build the man a statue.
One great half one ok half -> we compete for the title but likely don't win it, great manager.
two ok halves (last season) -> on par with what you expect, probably won't win against Pep/Klopp with this squad, but if you give him better players, he might compete. Deserves another shot.
one bad half and one great half -> needs to improve consistency, deserves another shot
one bad half, one ok half (what you are wishing to happen) -> why we should continue the experiment, his top is just ok, and his bottom is terrible. That's kinda worse than Ole/Mourinho/LvG whom for most part were two ok halves, and we sacked them for not being good enough.
two bad halves -> should have been sacked 6 months ago, bad manager (for this club)

For me, the bolded one is the only scenario when we should give him the third season.

I actually expect that the second bolded will happen.

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In any case, 2pp/game is not enough in the second season, after 400m spent, and no UCL/League Cup. That is what he achieved last season. The deal was that we should improve this season, not go sideways for half a season and burn in the other half. Saying that, I think that the decision is a bit more complex. If we get 2p/game, we should look at how that happened. Playing good football, winning against Villa/Brighton away, defeating the likes of Spurs/Arsenal at home, but occasionally inconsistent. Sure, would be interesting to see how he does in his third season. Getting jammy wins we did not deserve (with McTominay goals in extra time :) ) and thus winning most games, while getting annihilated by good squads? Nope.
 
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We should be looking beyond just the point accumulation unless that 2ppg comes with quality football creating lots of good chances while keeping stable defense otherwise it would just be delaying the inevitable .
Ofcourse and that goes without saying. Don't you see an improvement in our buildup phase ? I see that clearly . Teams don't press us high these days and if they do, we will play right through it. Having a fully fit Licha and Martinez would make a huge difference.

I am optimistic about our style once we have the players back.
 
Ofcourse and that goes without saying. Don't you see an improvement in our buildup phase ? I see that clearly . Teams don't press us high these days and if they do, we will play right through it. Having a fully fit Licha and Martinez would make a huge difference.

I am optimistic about our style once we have the players back.
Having no midfield and scoring no goals is a style you're optimistic about?

Can I sell you some magic beans?
 
Can you honestly say player for player that Nottingham Forest are a better side than us and we should be expected to lose? What about the likes of Copenhagen and Galatasaray? You can always use it to explain a game or two but it just keeps happening, that's the issue. Not to mention other teams have injuries as well. Injuries are a factor but in the context of this terrible season they are a weak excuse for the manager as well. Our problems obviously go far deeper than injuries.
We've been being outplayed by minor teams for many years now. The club had an idea with LVG and then bottled it with Mou and since then we have been stuck in a reactive/defensive setup where we can beat teams who play a high line/take too much risk but are otherwise a mid table team from an attacking perspective. Coaching standards are much better across the minor leagues now and almost everyone can press.

ETH is trying to move us to a single DM setup which is important if we want to take the next step as a team and it looks like it will cost him his job. We need to commit to the change even if he is sacked, otherwise we continue treading water.
 
Fair point but the entire fam base wouldn’t trust his transfer suggestions or his valuations of them. That’s a pretty difficult spot to be in for a manager who you expect to bring success. Not sure any manager with so little trust has succeeded after that at the top level.
Every manager gets transfers wrong, and as seen with recent articles, there wasn't a person in the world that valued Antony at the price we paid for him, that is on our moronic upper management, not the manager.
 
Every manager gets transfers wrong, and as seen with recent articles, there wasn't a person in the world that valued Antony at the price we paid for him, that is on our moronic upper management, not the manager.
Regardless of how much we paid, he's still an awful player who isn't a good fit for us, and that's on the manager for insisting we sign him. Also Ten Hag has got almost every transfer wrong
 
Don't even know why people still talking about "transfers" when it comes to Ten Hag. He's done horribly enough to be hounded out of here without that even coming into play.
 
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