Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Wolfbot]

100%

I just think that the opinion that our tactics are poor and that we are wide open is some what of an illusion. If we were actually able to score, as you highlight we actually had the players to score, then people would be a lot more positive with the way we play.



What is it exactly that makes you believe we are actually wide open? Our issue is scoring not conceding.

It's not an illusion, we can literally see opposition players waltzing through the middle of the pitch in the majority of games we play. There is probably a good argument for our defence being a bit better than most think it is if the goals conceded are comparable to other teams at the top end of the table given the amount of space and time we often afford the opposition in midfield.

If we could more often than not score more goals than the opposition playing like this then it's high risk for high reward football and I'd be ok with that in the shorter term, although I think it's unlikely a team wins the league playing like that.

Months of evidence shows we don't score many goals though, and if we do ie what we've seen in the champions league, we're actually more likely to concede as many or more than we score.

For these reasons, I don't think it's really a viable way of playing if we want to improve results and goal difference from where they are now.

 

[NLunited]

I think the way he approached the Pool game was smart. Can't expect to dominate them at Anfield. Rather, play the waiting game and don't concede. That's a good step forward in terms of adapting to the bigger away games in the league.

Yes, we are also not set up to dominate possession. Ten Hag aims for creating from turnovers and playing through the press.

Once we get more consistent and confident, we will be more composed and can keep the ball better, although that is not a main goal tactically at the moment.

 

[NLunited]

I'm sorry but if he didn't set his team out that way and they never did what he said then he'd just leave if he wasn't an idiot.

He's setting them up that way. One DM, two forward midfielders, zero cover, wide open.

No he’s not, and he deserves credit for not giving up, I would have said feck it.

He’s going to succeed or die trying it seems like.

 

[matherto]

No he’s not, and he deserves credit for not giving up, I would have said feck it.

He’s going to succeed or die trying it seems like.

Any rational manager would’ve also said feck it.

I don’t think succeed or die trying is a good philosophy when he’s not very good at succeeding.

If you genuinely think it’s just the players not responding to him and his instructions and leaving us wide open themselves then his position is untenable that way too

 

[NLunited]

Any rational manager would’ve also said feck it.

I don’t think succeed or die trying is a good philosophy when he’s not very good at succeeding.

If you genuinely think it’s just the players not responding to him and his instructions and leaving us wide open themselves then his position is untenable that way too

I think it is a lot of things: the state of the squad, injuries, ownership issue club, bad form, bad attitude/mentality of some players, scandal, organizational structure is behind the times, and probably the manager has made some errors in judgement too.

 

[Gordon Godot]

It's not an illusion, we can literally see opposition players waltzing through the middle of the pitch in the majority of games we play. There is probably a good argument for our defence being a bit better than most think it is if the goals conceded are comparable to other teams at the top end of the table given the amount of space and time we often afford the opposition in midfield.

If we could more often than not score more goals than the opposition playing like this then it's high risk for high reward football and I'd be ok with that in the shorter term, although I think it's unlikely a team wins the league playing like that.

Months of evidence shows we don't score many goals though, and if we do ie what we've seen in the champions league, we're actually more likely to concede as many or more than we score.

For these reasons, I don't think it's really a viable way of playing if we want to improve results and goal difference from where they are now.

Its hilarious, an 'illusion'. I watched the Wolves match day one and was WTF, It was embarrassing, we were carved open and nothing has really changed. Amrabat was awful vs Liverpool (and his stats show that), but was often left exposed and easily bypassed. I wasn't watching that closely but couldn't work out where Mainoo was playing, it certainly wasnt alongside Amrabat. We are a mess. Our tactical set up is on the manager. And I agree with the you that its not a viable way of playing where we cannot create or score

 

[RedorDead21]

Which other top manager of the last decade would you have zero trust in when it comes to choosing player targets? I have that now with him. That’s an odd situation to be in. Saying with the right set up he can prosper. We used to say that with Pogba and player wise it was always a nonsense and manager wise more so. He’s missing a major manager skill if he’s garbage at seeing a good player.

 

[NLunited]

Which other top manager of the last decade would you have zero trust in when it comes to choosing player targets? I have that now with him. That’s an odd situation to be in. Saying with the right set up he can prosper. We used to say that with Pogba and player wise it was always a nonsense and manager wise more so. He’s missing a major manager skill if he’s garbage at seeing a good player.

Back up. We can’t get the top top players. Seeing and getting is not the same. I’m not sure the scouting is the issue.

Amrabat is on loan and I actually think he is good. I have my doubts about Mount but he does have tidy technical abilities.

Onana is doing better. You can’t underestimate the difference being able to playing out the back makes: we see it more every game.

All the players signed since Ten Hag came have a good mind set, he got that right at least.

 

[NLunited]

Yes, that's exactly what everyone watching United sees every week, a nice compact team that is difficult to break down and play through.

It's not inconsistent execution, we barely ever do it!

When teams play through Arsenal’s, Cheaty or Liverpool’s press, there is loads of space to exploit. It comes with a proactive pressing playstyle.

If you see a 40 feet gap between defense and midfield, that’s on the players not following instructions or not running enough. Our total distance covered against Newcastle was low.

 

[Wolfbot]

When teams play through Arsenal’s, Cheaty or Liverpool’s press, there is loads of space to exploit. It comes with a proactive pressing playstyle.

If you see a 40 feet gap between defense and midfield, that’s on the players not following instructions or not running enough. Our total distance covered against Newcastle was low.

I think you have a point there regarding the other high pressing teams leaving space to be exploited.

The major difference is that they are far more effective at recovering the ball and using it well. I feel as though we win the ball back through a high press and often give it straight back to the opposition. If we're not coached well enough or genuinely don't have players with the ability to benefit from winning the ball back in a high press and throwing bodies forward, continuing with it is a suicidal approach.

 

[GMoore23]

Joint worst goal difference in the top 12 after 17 games.
Manchester United with a -3 GD after 17 games is a fecking disgrace. He's turned us into complete mediocrity.

 

[Leftback99]

100%

I just think that the opinion that our tactics are poor and that we are wide open is some what of an illusion. If we were actually able to score, as you highlight we actually had the players to score, then people would be a lot more positive with the way we play.



What is it exactly that makes you believe we are actually wide open? Our issue is scoring not conceding.

We've conceded the 5th most shots and have the 5th highest xg conceded. Pretty good signs that we are as bad as we look.

 

[TheGame]

 

[el3mel]

No he’s not, and he deserves credit for not giving up, I would have said feck it.

He’s going to succeed or die trying it seems like.

There's no professional manager who would ever say that, regardless of them being good or not.

 

[VP89]

There's no professional manager who would ever say that, regardless of them being good or not.

Glad you're back. You must have been punching a wall in anger after the 0-0

 

[DJ Jeff]

No he’s not, and he deserves credit for not giving up, I would have said feck it.

He’s going to succeed or die trying it seems like.

Who ever gives up at this level of football? Just keep doing shit til they sack you so you can get your payout. I'm not saying Erik is doing this by any means but nobody resigns with time left on their contract anymore at this level, it just doesn't happen.

Even Ole who loves the club hung on til he got his payout.

 

[peridigm]

Joint worst goal difference in the top 12 after 17 games.
Manchester United with a -3 GD after 17 games is a fecking disgrace. He's turned us into complete mediocrity.

We were already mediocre. He’s just maintaining the status quo.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

We were already mediocre. He’s just maintaining the status quo.

We never had -3 GD after 17 games.

 

[kerrygold]

When teams play through Arsenal’s, Cheaty or Liverpool’s press, there is loads of space to exploit. It comes with a proactive pressing playstyle.

If you see a 40 feet gap between defense and midfield, that’s on the players not following instructions or not running enough. Our total distance covered against Newcastle was low.

Those teams also, when losing the ball, immediately try to win it back. We do not do that to great effect.

 

[Redstain]

It feels like Eth main struggle is definitely tactical. You assess Europe's other leagues and the managers who are having breakout season in Michel and Alonso the key to their success is the philosophy behind their teams and the instructions to execute the planning. I could fathom two poor seasons (looking forward) if there's clearly without reasonable doubt concise evidence that a system is showing signs of working well but it's near impossible to predict what Erik is hoping to do and what this team is working towards.

I said a few weeks ago there's no neutrality this season. The new system creates an influx of space (negatively) in the midfield making the team open, then on the other hand, when there's a more pragmatic approach there's not enough attacking output to win games. Pragmatism against better opposition guarantees chances because they will roll the dice more, but against teams that sit, it's the same issue that three managers have consecutively failed to find a solution for.

 

[DON’T PANIC ™]

Worked against Chelsea, but can you answer the question?

Chelsea were awful and still could’ve scored a lot more if they had a decent forward.

What will I do if he reverts to the crappy system but wins a match? I’ll be happy with the win, but less convinced about the manager.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Joint worst goal difference in the top 12 after 17 games.
Manchester United with a -3 GD after 17 games is a fecking disgrace. He's turned us into complete mediocrity.

Our team is far to slow to get the ball forward to the front 3 which allows the opposition to get back in numbers and make it difficult to score and normally ends with us giving the ball away stupidly, players like Rashford and Antony will be a lot more productive if we got the ball forward to them quickly and get them in a position with the space to do their thing.

A lot of the goals we conceed actually come on the counter after we give the ball away at the other end and do virtually nothing to win it back.

 

[peridigm]

We never had -3 GD after 17 games.

That’s your bar for mediocre? I must be expecting too much the past decade.

 

[croadyman]

I said yesterday with Bruno we would have lost it. But on second thoughts, I think we would have won it. Couple of transitions where Amrabat and McT screwed up would have been taken care by Bruno.

Bruno is a perfect player for counter attacking system. I stand corrected. We missed him yesterday.

We definitely missed his transitions on Sunday but doubt Erik would have played a double pivot if he was available. However hope he sticks to this set up even with Bruno back on Saturday but fear he reverts to type.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

That’s your bar for mediocre? I must be expecting too much the past decade.

-3 GD isn't mediocre.

It's just flat out poor.

 

[Oranges038]

Joint worst goal difference in the top 12 after 17 games.
Manchester United with a -3 GD after 17 games is a fecking disgrace. He's turned us into complete mediocrity.

Another pointless statistic.

No wins against the top 9.....
Joint worst goal difference of the top 12....

Love when these random numbers for table positions are pulled just to make Utd look bad.

6th best defence
6th worst attack

Creating chances and scoring goals is the problem. Most of the chances conceded come from counters following a loose pass or stupid decision making in the final third. Once that's sorted Utd will start to blitz teams.

 

[Borys]

Another pointless statistic.

No wins against the top 9.....
Joint worst goal difference of the top 12....

Love when these random numbers for table positions are pulled just to make Utd look bad.

6th best defence
6th worst attack

Creating chances and scoring goals is the problem. Most of the chances conceded come from counters following a loose pass or stupid decision making in the final third. Once that's sorted Utd will start to blitz teams.

This season can't be described by stats that would tell you a coherent story tbh.
You say we're 6th best defence because of Goals Against, but at the same time we are 3rd worst for xG against. And we've had relatively good run of easy games recently so it makes this look really bad.
Onana has been a top (or one of the top) gks in the league. In the CL though...

One thing that is evident is we're not scoring enough goals. But we're playing super front heavy team already so that makes you wonder, maybe we do need to change the approach and become a bit more pragmatic team.

 

[Wolfbot]

One thing that is evident is we're not scoring enough goals. But we're playing super front heavy team already so that makes you wonder, maybe we do need to change the approach and become a bit more pragmatic team.

Nail on the head here. When your 4 months into a season playing with a lot of bodies forward with a negative goal difference, something is wrong with the set up and the approach needs to change.

It's not suddenly going to click this far in. It's fair to argue that the players are making mistakes and giving the ball away cheaply meaning the tactics Ten Hag employs aren't working.

In my opinion, after months of this, the manager needs to be recognising this and changing the approach, not doing so is simply poor management.

If it is the case, as some believe, that the forward players can't be trained or trusted to take care of the ball and make good decisions, then a whole new raft of them may be needed. Again, continuing with the same approach with the same players who are failing at it after months is madness.

Bottom line is good managers recognise problems and make changes sooner rather than later so I'm very unconvinced by him.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

You say we're 6th best defence because of Goals Against, but at the same time we are 3rd worst for xG against.

It should go without saying that "6th best defense" is not a good thing.

 

[Borys]

Nail on the head here. When your 4 months into a season playing with a lot of bodies forward with a negative goal difference, something is wrong with the set up and the approach needs to change.

It's not suddenly going to click this far in. It's fair to argue that the players are making mistakes and giving the ball away cheaply meaning the tactics Ten Hag employs aren't working.

In my opinion, after months of this, the manager needs to be recognising this and changing the approach, not doing so is simply poor management.

If it is the case, as some believe, that the forward players can't be trained or trusted to take care of the ball and make good decisions, then a whole new raft of them may be needed. Again, continuing with the same approach with the same players who are failing at it after months is madness.

Bottom line is good managers recognise problems and make changes sooner rather than later so I'm very unconvinced by him.

My main criticism towards Ten Hag is he had time to experiment with a different approach this season and time after time, he just went with this uber "offensive" approach that only resulted in us vulnerable in midfield. And he did that knowing that 50 to 75% of our first-choice defenders are out. He went for short term results, he BARELY got them, and now that he went with the approach that fans have been crying for we look closest to "functional" team. He is not a good coach in my eyes.

 

[Oranges038]

This season can't be described by stats that would tell you a coherent story tbh.
You say we're 6th best defence because of Goals Against, but at the same time we are 3rd worst for xG against. And we've had relatively good run of easy games recently so it makes this look really bad.
Onana has been a top (or one of the top) gks in the league. In the CL though...

One thing that is evident is we're not scoring enough goals. But we're playing super front heavy team already so that makes you wonder, maybe we do need to change the approach and become a bit more pragmatic team.

CL campaign would tell you that, almost the exact opposite of the league, scoring lots but conceding too many. Copenhagen and Galatasaray were more open and attacking and pushed more players forward than some of the league teams, so that helped going forward. But it also meant more trouble in defence.

Speed of decision making and composure in the final third is the biggest issue. Too often there's a lack of quick movements, a sloppy touch/ bad quality and choice of pass, Garnacho has got a few 1v1s and dicked them up with a bad touch or taking too much time.

 

[Borys]

CL campaign would tell you that, almost the exact opposite of the league, scoring lots but conceding too many. Copenhagen and Galatasaray were more open and attacking and pushed more players forward than some of the league teams, so that helped going forward. But it also meant more trouble in defence.

Speed of decision making and composure in the final third is the biggest issue. Too often there's a lack of quick movements, a sloppy touch/ bad quality and choice of pass, Garnacho has got a few 1v1s and dicked them up with a bad touch or taking too much time.

Exactly. This whole season is a glitch in Matrix just like the period under Raignick.

The problem with our attacking game is still the same, we do NOT have any patterns of play that attackers can always revert to in case they are in a bad form/having a day off. The whole modus operandi of this team for quite some time has been to give it to Rashford/Bruno/? and hopefully they will do something. But if they are not in a good form we don't have any other tools, we don't move the opposition, we don't know how to overload one side to put a defender against 2 attackers, there is no a single pattern that we repetitively use.

Antony for example is not playing worse than last season, he's playing exactly the on the same level, the difference is people were very forgiving because Rashford used to win us games anyway. It's a reality check that if Rashford is not capable of beating 2 players and scoring 1 in 2 shots, we simply have very little other options. And IMO Ten Hag has made a lot of wrong choices (Antony, Hojlund, Mount) - that probably shouldn't be his responsibility in the first place, but effectively takes us back and creates a lot of problems short term.

Obviously the injuries don't help, but is there anyone that actually thinks Mount is the answer to our lack of goals? Personally I hope he is the answer to our midfield, but I don't even think Ten Hag is asking that question.

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

Another pointless statistic.

No wins against the top 9.....
Joint worst goal difference of the top 12....

Love when these random numbers for table positions are pulled just to make Utd look bad.

6th best defence
6th worst attack

Creating chances and scoring goals is the problem. Most of the chances conceded come from counters following a loose pass or stupid decision making in the final third. Once that's sorted Utd will start to blitz teams.

How is 6th best defence a good thing?

 

[astracrazy]

How is 6th best defence a good thing?

Its joint 3rd.

Out attack is much much worse. Only Luton, Forrest, Palace, Burnley and Sheffield have scored less than us i.e the bottom five teams in the league.

People get too hung up on all this xGA this and xGA that. Actual facts are, as they stand, scoring is our problem, conceding isn't.

 

[Oranges038]

How is 6th best defence a good thing?

Joint 3rd best defence in terms of goals conceded. Only 1 less than City.

Is that not a good thing?

 

[Oranges038]

Exactly. This whole season is a glitch in Matrix just like the period under Raignick.

The problem with our attacking game is still the same, we do NOT have any patterns of play that attackers can always revert to in case they are in a bad form/having a day off. The whole modus operandi of this team for quite some time has been to give it to Rashford/Bruno/? and hopefully they will do something. But if they are not in a good form we don't have any other tools, we don't move the opposition, we don't know how to overload one side to put a defender against 2 attackers, there is no a single pattern that we repetitively use.

Antony for example is not playing worse than last season, he's playing exactly the on the same level, the difference is people were very forgiving because Rashford used to win us games anyway. It's a reality check that if Rashford is not capable of beating 2 players and scoring 1 in 2 shots, we simply have very little other options. And IMO Ten Hag has made a lot of wrong choices (Antony, Hojlund, Mount) - that probably shouldn't be his responsibility in the first place, but effectively takes us back and creates a lot of problems short term.

Obviously the injuries don't help, but is there anyone that actually thinks Mount is the answer to our lack of goals? Personally I hope he is the answer to our midfield, but I don't even think Ten Hag is asking that question.

I agree that's no sustained structure in attack, part of that problem I think comes from an inability to keep the ball in the opposition half, and I think that comes back to the structure, support and off the ball movement.

Players just seem to go where they want and it all seems off the cuff and no real understanding between the players regarding movement and passing. They lose it and there's no real effort to win it back quickly.

To drag teams around you have to be patient, something that's severely lacking with Bruno, Rashford and Garnacho. Antony/Rashford on the wings is very one dimensional and somewhat easy to defend against, you force them inside and crowd them out. More emphasis needs to be put on support and recycling the ball, changing angles, sides, creating overloads. Too often the wingers seem to try and run from 40 yards towards the goal. If you could keep the ball higher up the pitch, they are more effective at getting in between players around the box. But that requires the full backs to offer the width and the ones we have don't seem to do that. Inverted fullbacks doesn't work with these guys who are inverted wingers. Everything ends up too central and congested and breaks down too easily.

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

Joint 3rd best defence in terms of goals conceded. Only 1 less than City.

Is that not a good thing?

Yes that is better ofcourse, it didn’t say that.

 

[VP89]

Define "good win". Will we suddenly have a cohesive, functioning midfield that isn't absurdly open as Bruno and McT decide to sit next to the striker all game while we employ a suicidal pressing structure? Because just having a good game in front of goal and getting lucky not getting punished at the other end isn't what I consider a "good win" it would just be positive variance

A good win is one that controls large portions of the game and creates more than the opponent.

Anyway I think McT will play specifically against West Ham because of his physique. We will need height and some power against that team. JWP will try to knock it into a lot of tall and strong players in the West Ham box during the game.

 

[Redstain]

Exactly. This whole season is a glitch in Matrix just like the period under Raignick.

The problem with our attacking game is still the same, we do NOT have any patterns of play that attackers can always revert to in case they are in a bad form/having a day off. The whole modus operandi of this team for quite some time has been to give it to Rashford/Bruno/? and hopefully they will do something. But if they are not in a good form we don't have any other tools, we don't move the opposition, we don't know how to overload one side to put a defender against 2 attackers, there is no a single pattern that we repetitively use.

Antony for example is not playing worse than last season, he's playing exactly the on the same level, the difference is people were very forgiving because Rashford used to win us games anyway. It's a reality check that if Rashford is not capable of beating 2 players and scoring 1 in 2 shots, we simply have very little other options. And IMO Ten Hag has made a lot of wrong choices (Antony, Hojlund, Mount) - that probably shouldn't be his responsibility in the first place, but effectively takes us back and creates a lot of problems short term.

Obviously the injuries don't help, but is there anyone that actually thinks Mount is the answer to our lack of goals? Personally I hope he is the answer to our midfield, but I don't even think Ten Hag is asking that question.

This is a good summation of everything. I said throughout the summer that the targets were not suitable for addressing the teams decencies. Hojlund I think will become good with time but Kolo-Muani would have added more dynamics to the attack because of his ability to progress the ball which opens up more spaces and lets the wingers interchange with the striker. Similar to the role G.Jesus played last season last season for Arsenal allowing both their wide players to get double digits last season.

Hojlund instinctively runs off the last man and because the wide players aren't creative his movement is essentially pointless. The club should have signed a right winger, fullback and another striker.

 

[Borys]

Its joint 3rd.

Out attack is much much worse. Only Luton, Forrest, Palace, Burnley and Sheffield have scored less than us i.e the bottom five teams in the league.

People get too hung up on all this xGA this and xGA that. Actual facts are, as they stand, scoring is our problem, conceding isn't.

That's interesting. Trying to break that down into GF/xG (attacking category) vs GA/xG against (defending category), we are
Attacking category
15th for goals scored and 11th for xG - HOWEVER, we are -7,8 on G-xG (that puts us top of the list of the worst finishers). While we seem to be terrible at finishing, in theory if we were "average" finishers that would put us...10th/11th for goals scored. So we still don't produce anywhere enough chances (no shit).
Defending category
6th best for goals conceded, BUT 5th WORST for xG against (chances against us). If we had an "average" GK we would be 10/11th team for goals conceded.

Needless to say stats don't work this way. Scoring is definitely THE problem, but it's not like we can go more attacking as we are "OK" defensively. We're not. We actually are a bit unlucky attacking-wise while we're on the "lucky" side as far as defending is considered. All in all we're midtable team judging by the stats that would usually be a good predictor of where the team is heading.

Hopefully players returning from injuries will turn the ship.