We would have been blown out of the water if we went to Anfield with Bruno and Mctominay. Guaranteed.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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A solid controlled display away at Anfield is progress, even if we barely created anything. It shows the players we can go away to good teams and not crumble, for the young ones especially that's important.
When we beat them at OT last season it was a very disciplined performance also but the result itself gave the lads confidence and we kicked on. Hopefully we can see similar now.
My biggest worry is that Ten Hag only went solid in midfield because his hand was forced by Bruno's suspension and injuries. If we go back to a single pivot then I don't see him lasting at all and we'll be back to the same stupid results before no time.
Bruno and McTominay (and Mount when he's back) shouldn't be starting games together, it's one or the other.
When we beat them at OT last season it was a very disciplined performance also but the result itself gave the lads confidence and we kicked on. Hopefully we can see similar now.
My biggest worry is that Ten Hag only went solid in midfield because his hand was forced by Bruno's suspension and injuries. If we go back to a single pivot then I don't see him lasting at all and we'll be back to the same stupid results before no time.
Bruno and McTominay (and Mount when he's back) shouldn't be starting games together, it's one or the other.
The thing is though if we set up like this against against lesser teams we'll struggle to create anything. Also thought Amrabat wasn't very good in general against Liverpool but I suppose he keeps his place as long as Casemiro is out.
So many injuries but we expect progress in playing style with players we know can't do the job. Martinez is a key component of the way we played last season, so were Eriksen and Casemiro
At different stages at least 2-3 out of 4 of our central defence and midfield from last year not available for months and we somehow aren’t seeing progress. Our manager should be still olaginh his style with an unproven 18 year old , a loanee from serie A ans a player we were trying to sell. That’s very reasonable
Compared to all those chances we've been generating recently?
This super front-heavy formation has not been working for us because we can't progress the ball through midfield, we need to have two actual midifelders. We can push fullbacks higher up and have wingers tucking in, plenty of ways to make this work and not in "defensive" style.
There is a popular misconception amongst United fans that we struggle against lesser teams that sit back against us. That isn't the case really. We win games that we're expected to win, but we crumble against anyone who actually wants to have a go at us.
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I know that but it's a tactic we have persisted with throughout the season, I do not see us changing that approach if it wasn't for injuries.
It's not like our midfield controlled the game.
We did not play a good game we're just lucky Liverpool didn't score 3 or 4 goals. They had 34 shots ffs.
We did limit Liverpool to half chances, plus a few good shots from corners/free kicks. I think we looked fairly good defensively in central areas and seemed to me like we had an idea how to progress the ball - that happened a few times only, but was still an improvement over the shite we've been served last weeks.
That game showed amrabat is well out of his depth here.
Was awful, kept giving the ball away and is so slow.
Casemiro and mainoo should be the first choice there when everyone is fit.
Was awful, kept giving the ball away and is so slow.
Casemiro and mainoo should be the first choice there when everyone is fit.
It shouldn't be a suprise the best this team looks is with a low block. It's what got United the wins against Liverpool and Arsenal at home last season. The reality is that whatever Erik is trying to do with his philosophy he's insufficient at. As others have noted the 8s are too advanced so there's massive gaps that the 6 is exposed too. The performances last season began to dip just after the Barcelona fixtures but the barometer for last season's good performance was Chelsea at the bridge with the double pivot.
I'll say this once again injuries didn't undo the progress from last season, it was Erik's vision of playing the new system and ditching the double pivot midfield. Subsequently an adequate replacement should have been purchased for Eriksen and someone like Tielemans would have been more ideal to Mount positionally.
There's no chance he will resume the season with a double pivot when Bruno is back from suspension. We have been here before, yesterday's performance was poor but the teams displays that often follows a decent result is to revert to type.
I'll say this once again injuries didn't undo the progress from last season, it was Erik's vision of playing the new system and ditching the double pivot midfield. Subsequently an adequate replacement should have been purchased for Eriksen and someone like Tielemans would have been more ideal to Mount positionally.
There's no chance he will resume the season with a double pivot when Bruno is back from suspension. We have been here before, yesterday's performance was poor but the teams displays that often follows a decent result is to revert to type.
This is undisputed. Amrabat is the stop gap, 2nd/3rd choice in that position and plays exactly like this. Casemiro goes straight back to this team once fit.
Decent result relative to last season's debacle. I think Klopp and Liverpool were as surprised as anyone that ten Hag parked the bus.
Perhaps, but we were better in possession. We didn't progress the ball through midfield yesterday at all except for one or two quick counters like the great ball from Mainoo to Garnacho. We usually passed the ball between Onana and one of the CBs a few times before hoofing it upfield. Maybe this trio can do better with more offensive tactics but we haven't seen any evidence of that so far.
Onana, AWB, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Casemiro, Mainoo, Fernandes, Antony, Hojlund, Garnacho.
That would seem to be our best XI now in my opinion. Despite McTominays goals, I think when fernandes is back, mctominay needs to go to the bench and let mainoo and amrabat continue. No more squeezing players into positions they dont fit.
That would seem to be our best XI now in my opinion. Despite McTominays goals, I think when fernandes is back, mctominay needs to go to the bench and let mainoo and amrabat continue. No more squeezing players into positions they dont fit.
We were better in posession because:
a) we didn't play Liverpool at Anfield
b) opposition team is usually happy for our back 5 to have the ball, so on the eye it looks like we might even be dominating posession, but it's opposition controlling the game
I agree we have not see evidence of this trio (not that McTominay should be part of the discussion anyway) being effective offensively, but at least we saw that it looks like it could be a functional midfield setup. This is contrary to all that we've seen since the preseason started, where everyone knew this "single pivot + two #10s" is not going to work. And yet, here we are, thinking if next game we'll see Bruno behind McTominay again.
Ten Hag wants us to be a top team capable of beating any side. That is his goal and that is why he is persisting with his tactics: highly rewarding when it is executed well, risky if not.
Even after a good performance he says
‘Good is not good enough’. His demands to improve are constant which is necessary to get where he wants to go (and where we want to go right?).
Sometimes we scratch our heads about the tactics, after a game where it didn’t work again. He is persisting because he wants us challenging at the top and winning the league, not settle for 3rd place and Carabao Cup. That was last year’s ceiling. This year we might take a step back to take 2/3 forward next season, with all the crap that is happening to us.
Our next step forward needs to be total commitment from the players to the tactics and improved performance of them. Yesterday we saw a team that was disciplined and helping each other out, fighting for each other. We need to see that every game.
I am all for keeping ETH but yes i would be concerned if he drops McTom back to Mainoo's position for the next match when Bruno is back. Also not sure what is going on with Varane and ETH but I hope they are made up now for the sake of the club, we need Varane up for the rest of this season as the guy is pure class. We cannot even have this guy in the same sentence as someone like Sancho.
No it isn’t, Pep replaced City’s squad completely within a few years.
If ww are playing with McT and Evans, it’s not ‘his players and system’.
McT plays high, not next to the dm.
United tax.
How is a manager to implement his philosophy and style of play when almost half the team is out injured?
I think the tactics would have been the same with Bruno: deeper line of pressing engagement, cutting off midfield passing lanes.
Bruno works hard, he is not a passenger defensively. Risky passes would not have been an issue yesterday, we had no possession to speak of. Bruno is capable of finding the pass to the attackers in the midst of chaos: we missed that yesterday.
exactly , but thats been the issue with us being too open and McTom does not quite have the defensive discipline and distribution to cover the gaps like Mainoo. I don't doubt his commitment and he can grab a goal but he should be on the bench.
Agreed. The main difference is EtH’s implementation of his new system with 2 advanced 8s which is currently not suited to the personnel we have or just unable to be coached properly. The safe way is to keep last season’s lower block style but we will not progress. EtH needs to find the right balance if we are to salvage the season. But we have also been massively hindered by poor signings and inability to move players on - and that is prob on both EtH and the club
It’s not like these guys are you and me, they are supposed to be the very best in the world.
They aren’t solely to blame but a huge part of it.
Has anyone spared a thought for @el3mel? His whole week was turned into complete dissaray after yesterday's result. He had boxed off multiple hours across every day this week to spam the life out of every ETH thread with his incessant horse shite. Now he has to wait until Saturday and hope it goes tits up at West Ham
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I don't want to comment on the first part as ETH hasn't had his full team available and play consistently for atleast couple of months. So I will reserve my judgment.
The fact you are proposing Tielemans as a Mount replacement is as laughable as it can get. Please do some research on how he has been deployed by Emery.
I said yesterday with Bruno we would have lost it. But on second thoughts, I think we would have won it. Couple of transitions where Amrabat and McT screwed up would have been taken care by Bruno.
Bruno is a perfect player for counter attacking system. I stand corrected. We missed him yesterday.
Maybe you missed the context of what has been said. It doesn't matter who United throw in the midfield if the 8s are too advanced and the 6 is left isolated it is a structural issue, you can have a midfield of prime Casemiro, Bellingham and Frenkie De Jong it would amount to the same problem of being tactical suicide with the spaces that need to be covered when the opposition team creates a turnover in possession or an overload in the midfield.
The first game of the season against Wolves with no injuries the performance was a catalyst for what would follow the teams trajectory this season. Nunes looked like a 100m sprinter in the Olympics the midfield had absolutely no resistance. As stated the issue this season has been the managers directive with ditching what gave the team a good portion of success last season. Do you think it wise for a manager in his infancy in the league to have a good season in a previous campaign and then purchase players in the summer for a system he's yet to implement in a domestic fixture ?
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I never mentioned Tielemans as a replacement for Mount, I said Tielemans would be a better replacement positionally for Eriksen. Mount is incapable of playing in the midfield. Tielemans has successfully played the pivot with Ndidi in the midfield for Leicester. Mount is the wrong profile of player for what the team needs, Tielemans though he's not imperfect is not.
I very much doubt it. We would have approached it in exactly the same way as we have approached virtually every game this season, open and with Amrabat isolated in midfield. Whether the outcome would have been different I don't really know, we did allow Liverpool to have 34 shots and some decent (not great) opportunities so perhaps we would have still been able to snatch a 0-0.
I think we will go back to our normal selves against West Ham and Aston Villa though, so essentially 5-0-5. Let's see.
Exactly Eth has shown to be stubbornly infatuated with this approach. It's not going to change.
Tielemans is not better than Mount. You are right that he is not the profile we need. He is a 10 and as such it is between him and Bruno for that spot. ETH has been using him as a number 8 but while his work rate is good he is not good enough defensively, Kobe is the ideal nuber 8 for. Later I think Kobe will be an excellent DM with someone like Gore as a number 8
I agree in parts but Tielemans is certainly better then Mount in the deeper areas of the midfield and when it comes to progressing the play his distribution alone is enough to break lines which means the movement Rashford and Hojlund would offer has a higher ratio of being found. It's subjective of course but as you stated Mount is in no mans land outside of being a number 10.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
More than the coaching on the pitch, ETH's most crucial objective right now has to be to make no-holds barred statements against the make-United-a-punchbag view that the refs have had this season - I would love to see him fined for calling out that the refs are making a point to gain spotlight by giving decisions against United game after game - call out specific names and incidents. I want the club to release a public statement about it and start a campaign with ex-players to bring attention to it, too. Take the fines - it's worth it, because these decisions stack up over a season, and could be the difference between 4th and 6th.
EtH would be in a far more comfortable position if he showed half the balls in standing to up the ridiculous reffing as he did in dropping and benching players. Pretty sure this inability to try to manipulate the ref narrative is going to contribute heavily to him eventually losing his job.
More than the coaching on the pitch, ETH's most crucial objective right now has to be to make no-holds barred statements against the make-United-a-punchbag view that the refs have had this season - I would love to see him fined for calling out that the refs are making a point to gain spotlight by giving decisions against United game after game - call out specific names and incidents. I want the club to release a public statement about it and start a campaign with ex-players to bring attention to it, too. Take the fines - it's worth it, because these decisions stack up over a season, and could be the difference between 4th and 6th.
EtH would be in a far more comfortable position if he showed half the balls in standing to up the ridiculous reffing as he did in dropping and benching players. Pretty sure this inability to try to manipulate the ref narrative is going to contribute heavily to him eventually losing his job.
The issue is it feels all risk at the moment because we aren't scoring even though the risk isn't actually that bad is you go by the league table. Goals conceded we are on par with everyone above us, but goals scored is half of everyone above us.
This is what I don't get with this team. We get games like this, a bit like vs Chelsea. Then the following game or two we are absolute garbage and look a total mess with no clue.
That's exactly what I am saying. Tielemans isn't a replacement for Eriksen. The good Tielemans who played with Ndidi was 3 years ago. Please go and check it out. Also when you have a moment, check how's Emery deploying Tielemans now.
We have Martial and Hojlund as strikers: Martial isn’t good enough for the Championship and Hojlund needs time.
Antony isn’t delivering end product yet, Rashford off the boil and lazy, Garnacho still young.
I think that goes a ways to explaining why we aren’t scoring more.
The second reason ties in with the inconsistency. Everyone needs to be on board and follow instructions for our tactics to work well, whatever they may be.
The Newcastle game was particularly confounding. I’m sure Ten Hag didn’t send them out with the instructions to press high and sit back at the same time, but that was what it looked like.
If the workrate isn’t there (it wasn’t) and players aren’t following instructions, it is no surprise wd look like shiit.
So you judge whether a system is working based on one game? Perhaps wait for the injured players to return, assess and determine over a stretch of games whether the system is working with the current crop of players. You’re not unusual in being the typical impatient supporter who demands results now without understanding that progress is gradual with many bumps along the way. Thankfully ten Hag will stay and he will be given an opportunity to correct these issues once key players return from injury. I believe once Casemiro, Martinez and Mount return, we’ll see a more progressive and well rounded team.
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