There probably are, weakest group we’ve had in years. Gonna need to make some seriously quality additions in that area in the coming windows.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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He pulled out a result when he needed to fair play. Probably just a stay of execution though.
I dunno. It’s only a draw but the belief it will give is huge I think.
A win and a draw against West Ham and Villa and it’s 3 really good results to push on from.
Get 2 wins from those 2 and it’s fantastic.
I’d be happy with a solitary competent striker in Jan, it’s so unfair to pin everything on Hojlund.
I won’t be holding my breath however!
How on earth did we manage to spend £80m on Antony, when Kudus was available for £37m
We have pace in attack for a start. We have strength in players like Hojlund, Shaw, Casemiro who can hold up the ball. We have some great long passers too like Licha, Linda, case and Bruno.
I’m not saying we are the greatest because clearly we could be so much better, but to say there are zero strengths is meaningless hyperbole.
Well done to ETH for pulling off an unexpected draw. Hopefully it will be a boost in confidence and results, like last season against Liverpool as well.
They're able to bounce back from disappointments and keep running and fighting in spite of their technical weaknesses.
Is there anyone in the rather productive youth ranks who could step up? We've had success with 2, maybe even 3 already the last 18 months and when we were short of strikers years back, a certain young Rashford was called upon.
Still need an experienced, quality striker but given how Garnacho, Mainoo and Hannibal are working out, couldn't hurt if there's someone we could bring through.
We rarely play well at Anfield and probably the last time we did so was in LVG’s first season. Even under Fergie, i remember that they were often the dominant side at Anfield.
ETH and the players do deserve some credit for eking out a hard fought draw.
I’m not sure there is. We sold Emeran who looked tasty in preseason. There is Hugill but he is tall and slight and still very much a boy, don’t know if he’d be strong enough right now for the men’s game.
Pretty much every team in the PL has pace in attack and some good 'long passers'. It's not a particular strength relative to others.
Like you say. There's attackers in the bottom 10 that would improve us.
based on what from the time they had played this season ?
Finally felt like Erik managed a game smartly today rather than his stubborn style that rarely ever budges. We need to see more of this from him moving forward.
Much preferred today’s set up of the team. We actually defended as a unit more, looked solid and had the dangerous counter attacking back in our play. Yes, we know we lack any sort of quality in those attacking positions and that’s a totally different discussion but we looked much harder to beat today. Probably no coincidence there being no Bruno picking up the ball at left back leaving us all over the place shape wise.
Much preferred today’s set up of the team. We actually defended as a unit more, looked solid and had the dangerous counter attacking back in our play. Yes, we know we lack any sort of quality in those attacking positions and that’s a totally different discussion but we looked much harder to beat today. Probably no coincidence there being no Bruno picking up the ball at left back leaving us all over the place shape wise.
Probably unfair to ask them to solve the striker problem in all honesty.
We couldn't play the 2 very attacking midfielders leaving Amrabat, who isn't good enough anyway, completely isolated because Fernandes and Mount were missing and therefore he had to pick Mainoo (who is a more conventional midfielder) while the injuries also meant he was forced to play our best defender (which is a ridiculous statement).
Hopefully he takes from this that having a midfield and playing your best players is sensible, I guess we will see in the coming weeks. It will surely give the team a boost in morale to finally not get plugged away to a big team.
On paper, the top teams like City and Arsenal play with a single pivot (Rodri / Rice / Partey etc.) but on the pitch it becomes a double pivot as one of the full-backs inverts (Stones / Cancelo / Zinchenko etc.) to form a 3+2 in the build-up phase. Those teams are then able to play with two players in the 10 role.
United under Ole also used to build-up with a 3+2 but instead of AWB or Shaw inverted it was our 2 DMs (usually McFred). Then Bruno would be the 10 alone and Shaw would be more of a traditional left-back supporting Rashford.
United before the FC Bayern game did not build the play with a 3+2. Rather, it was a 3+1. The right-back and two centre-backs as the 3 and then the sole DM as the 1. Then the left-back would push up and join the 10s. It was just too gung-ho of a system and we were both easy to counter against and outnumbered in the build-up phase which forced us to go long.
Hope this helps!
Define "good win". Will we suddenly have a cohesive, functioning midfield that isn't absurdly open as Bruno and McT decide to sit next to the striker all game while we employ a suicidal pressing structure? Because just having a good game in front of goal and getting lucky not getting punished at the other end isn't what I consider a "good win" it would just be positive variance
I actually think McTominay's goalscoring is a bit overrated. People act like he's Lampard in front of net but he's scored 25 goals in over 220 appearances. This isn't the Chicharito version of a midfielder we are talking about.
Because a single pivot only works if you have the right CM's in front of them and the correct pressing structure defensively to ensure the gaps are closed up. We don't have the right CMs, Mount is the only technically sound one we have that's also athletic enough to do the proper running. Bruno is far too poor in tight spaces to really thrive which is why he's better as a lone 10 allowed to roam in front of a pivot.
Imo it's on ETH for trying to play this 5-0-5 system with high pressing but deep backline leaving the midfield empty. But I see your point that perhaps it's a sign of the players tactical inability to implement his ideas leading to the gaps, particularly made worse by lack of work rate from wide players and full backs (particularly in backing the press)
Today though we set up very differently, big difference was Amrabat was supported by Mainoo in CM, and we were more compact but also deeper than usual. We have to agree to disagree that today was a successful implementation of his previous idea (your opinion) vs a different set up working well (imo)
We have world class DOF in Murtough who just sign whoever the manager wants. I can't believe any sane football people willing to sign Antony for 80M.
It’s only a thing for those who can’t fathom the idea of not wanting to sack your manager immediately.
Lets build on this performance. We probably wont but this is the best confidence boost this team can get.
Our schedule should be a lot easier in the New Year and hopefully the injured players will be back and the likes of Varane and Shaw will be more comfortable playing just one match per week. Grasping at straws maybe but hopefully he can sort out the attack.
All he has to do is make us hard to beat and start grinding out a few 1-0s. We are trying to play fast attacking football but we are crap at it. We have the players to go and score if they have the space to run into. We are still most effective as a counter attacking team all these years later. We need a better midfield to impose ourselves on the game. Otherwise we are always in reactive mode
Could have fooled me
The players aren’t doing it but the intent is there. We are wide open all the time.
The problem is that most things that go well seem to be completely against ETH’s intentions. Had we had Bruno available today (or even Mount) then I suspect it would have been Amrabat-McT-Bruno and we’d have struggled. There’s no real sign of managerial influence helping us. He should get more time now but he’s got to start making a difference himself.
Lately, this entire thread has been people looking for sticks to beat him with, but here is my take on things.
I really feel as if one of his main tasks when signed was to change a certain culture at the club, and he can only do this by beginning to phase out certain personalities who have overstayed their presence while simultaneously making sure the youngsters get moulded as model professionals and eventually phase out the toxic atmosphere that seems to have manifested itself in the dressing room over the past decade.
Yes he has had his flaws, and yes he made some mistakes but overall he has been dealing with a lot of shit from all aspects of the club. Without giving excuses for terrible results under him - along with the other things that haven't gone our way - everything has to be examined in context.
Given everything that he has had to deal with, I hardly see him as being the main issue of our troubles. I'm sure this has been said many times over, but it must stay top of mind as people seem to be going out of their way to criticize him on a weekly basis. It is getting extremely tiring.
The fact is, he has shown that he can get the most out of a dysfunctional squad with glaring holes and dozens on injuries and that needs to be applauded for what it's worth. Now, before anyone retorts by saying the squad is shambolic due to his signings, remember both things can be true. Has he made some questionable signings? If you feel that way you are certainly entitled to it, but both things can be true as he also has done well in getting rid of certain players on ridiculous wages. Perhaps him building a squad is more a reflection on the club than it is on him - given that every aspect of our club seems to be going in different directions. Perhaps the failing of the club in this regard has failed him and as a result - the supporters as well.
I constantly read on here that ETH was forced to play this set up today due to players being missing, or see posters questioning why wasn't this player playing over another (i.e Varane today) Yet we never read that he has done well for adjusting accordingly given the personnel he has.
One last thing, on the Varane topic from above. You can make an argument that ETH is really good with squad (man) management. Varane was injured and unavailable and when he was available he had some bad games thus giving Maguire (who has also been dropped for playing shite) a chance and he took it, now that Varane is back fit and on form he will play. You can see with Rashford being dropped and with the McTominay captaincy along with dropping Sancho, shipping off Ronaldo and not renewing DDG. This is how you light fires under players to ensure that playing for United is a privilege and not some free ride. Players have to treat every minute as if it is their last on the pitch because at this club there should always be competition for places. It seems as if the opposite has been true over the past decade - almost as if these players are doing United a favour by playing for them. And that needs to change so in that regard ETH has my support.
I'm disappointed in how fans are backing certain players or perceptions over supporting the club itself, I am sure all of us want what's best for the club in our own way - but it should not stop us from being logical and seeing the context and reasoning behind certain decisions - especially if it doesn't fit our logic and reasoning.
I really feel as if one of his main tasks when signed was to change a certain culture at the club, and he can only do this by beginning to phase out certain personalities who have overstayed their presence while simultaneously making sure the youngsters get moulded as model professionals and eventually phase out the toxic atmosphere that seems to have manifested itself in the dressing room over the past decade.
Yes he has had his flaws, and yes he made some mistakes but overall he has been dealing with a lot of shit from all aspects of the club. Without giving excuses for terrible results under him - along with the other things that haven't gone our way - everything has to be examined in context.
Given everything that he has had to deal with, I hardly see him as being the main issue of our troubles. I'm sure this has been said many times over, but it must stay top of mind as people seem to be going out of their way to criticize him on a weekly basis. It is getting extremely tiring.
The fact is, he has shown that he can get the most out of a dysfunctional squad with glaring holes and dozens on injuries and that needs to be applauded for what it's worth. Now, before anyone retorts by saying the squad is shambolic due to his signings, remember both things can be true. Has he made some questionable signings? If you feel that way you are certainly entitled to it, but both things can be true as he also has done well in getting rid of certain players on ridiculous wages. Perhaps him building a squad is more a reflection on the club than it is on him - given that every aspect of our club seems to be going in different directions. Perhaps the failing of the club in this regard has failed him and as a result - the supporters as well.
I constantly read on here that ETH was forced to play this set up today due to players being missing, or see posters questioning why wasn't this player playing over another (i.e Varane today) Yet we never read that he has done well for adjusting accordingly given the personnel he has.
One last thing, on the Varane topic from above. You can make an argument that ETH is really good with squad (man) management. Varane was injured and unavailable and when he was available he had some bad games thus giving Maguire (who has also been dropped for playing shite) a chance and he took it, now that Varane is back fit and on form he will play. You can see with Rashford being dropped and with the McTominay captaincy along with dropping Sancho, shipping off Ronaldo and not renewing DDG. This is how you light fires under players to ensure that playing for United is a privilege and not some free ride. Players have to treat every minute as if it is their last on the pitch because at this club there should always be competition for places. It seems as if the opposite has been true over the past decade - almost as if these players are doing United a favour by playing for them. And that needs to change so in that regard ETH has my support.
I'm disappointed in how fans are backing certain players or perceptions over supporting the club itself, I am sure all of us want what's best for the club in our own way - but it should not stop us from being logical and seeing the context and reasoning behind certain decisions - especially if it doesn't fit our logic and reasoning.
Agreed. We lack pace, good decision making and clinical finishing and you need those if you're going to be a high-tempo, quick transition team. Right now I see little choice but for us to revert back to our pragmatic counter-attacking system from last year. A double-pivot of Casemiro and Mainoo and with Martinez back in the team soon hopefully we can drag ourselves back up the table.
Oh boy, the way we were setup was entirely due to luck? Or, did Ten Hag set them up to
nullify Pool? Of course he did.
We actually missed Maguire, he wins tons of headers, Pool had many corners.
With Bruno we would have had more attacking threat.
He'd have lined us up with Bruno, McTominay and Amrabat. Not sure how that would've held up.
One thing I'd like him to do though, is to make a fuss when shit decisions like Dalot's red goes against us. There's no advantage to be had by taking the high road.
This squad has shown under Ole as well that the only style they are consistently capable of adapting is sitting back and playing on the counter. Things fell apart when Ole tried taking the next step and it feels like we can't do it now either.
The pragmatic thing to do would be to continue playing this way until we can improve the squad further. Will be interesting to see if we're more open next week and this was just a one off due to injuries and the opponent.
The pragmatic thing to do would be to continue playing this way until we can improve the squad further. Will be interesting to see if we're more open next week and this was just a one off due to injuries and the opponent.
Very happy with the result. This is the one game where performance isn't the be all and end all - much, much better sides of ours personnel wise have gone to Anfield and not had anything like a good game.
Considering the horror show the game before last there, getting a 0-0 is epic. We could also have won the game if Hojlund had finished what was a fairly easy chance.
The positive from the game is that ten Hag is aware that he doesn't have to use the single pivot we are not good with in every game and it should open his eyes to being more flexible with the system played. From there, work on the play, but in the meantime, have us look like a side that can fight and compete instead of roll over to any and everyone.
We have massive issues to work on, but this at least gives us a base to work on them from. If he goes back to the same system as before after this, well there's no words.
Considering the horror show the game before last there, getting a 0-0 is epic. We could also have won the game if Hojlund had finished what was a fairly easy chance.
The positive from the game is that ten Hag is aware that he doesn't have to use the single pivot we are not good with in every game and it should open his eyes to being more flexible with the system played. From there, work on the play, but in the meantime, have us look like a side that can fight and compete instead of roll over to any and everyone.
We have massive issues to work on, but this at least gives us a base to work on them from. If he goes back to the same system as before after this, well there's no words.
I rate his goalscoring ability. I would seriously consider playing him as a striker if Hojlund needs a break (I also think it's a good idea to take him out of the spotlight but that's a different discussion). McTominay can put his laces through it and I like his shooting technique, also seems good at getting at the end of things. I think it's a better option than shifting Bruno and playing Scott as #10. His numbers might not be impressive but he used to play very conservative role in the past so I wouldn't make conclusions based on that.
He has to keep Amrabat Mainoo double pivot, be interesting to see the next game, I hope he doesn't push Bruno out of position to play McTom. With the amount of games we'll have (2 games in January) it'll be interesting to see what team we will put out.
Exactly, every time Ten Hag had a choice to make he went with McTominay&Bruno ahead of Amrabat, and Varane benched. He's out of options now - not sure why he gets the credit for playing Amrabat-Mainoo and Varane, the fanbase has been begging for that for a while now.
We would have most likely played the same midfield as usual if Bruno were available but did not have that choice with him suspended, had to go with two deeper midfielders as that’s all we had.
I doubt we have the same performance with Amrabat and McTominay instead of Mainoo and Amrabat.
Good result but once again demonstrates that we've really made no progress with respect playing EtHs preferred style of football.
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