I think both can be decent comparisons, Klopp in what you said, Arteta in underperforming/building during his first couple years. I do agree with most of what you said. For me the fanbase are being fickle. When he joined everybody said that any players not on board should be sold, the deadwood should be gone, we should back the manager over the players. The minute things get rocky i.e. this season some are calling for his head. I actually have sympathy for Ten Hag, this guy had to deal with Ronaldo, stripping Maguire, no greenwood return, no de jong, Sancho, now Rashford sulking, the club not being able to shift deadwood and now one of the craziest injury records a team has had to face and yet you have fans going well he's choosing to play mctominay, well he chose to criticize Sancho etc. At the end of the day, if we want the player power to be broken, if we want to evolve into a team that plays to a philosophy versus one of individual highlights then at some point we will have to go through this pain and this transition. Might as well do it with Ten Hag. Which is why the Arteta comparison is apt, they had to go through the pain to get to where they are now. Are they winning leagues? No, but Arteta has them in the best shape that they have been in decades.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I think both can be decent comparisons, Klopp in what you said, Arteta in underperforming/building during his first couple years. I do agree with most of what you said. For me the fanbase are being fickle. When he joined everybody said that any players not on board should be sold, the deadwood should be gone, we should back the manager over the players. The minute things get rocky i.e. this season some are calling for his head. I actually have sympathy for Ten Hag, this guy had to deal with Ronaldo, stripping Maguire, no greenwood return, no de jong, Sancho, now Rashford sulking, the club not being able to shift deadwood and now one of the craziest injury records a team has had to face and yet you have fans going well he's choosing to play mctominay, well he chose to criticize Sancho etc. At the end of the day, if we want the player power to be broken, if we want to evolve into a team that plays to a philosophy versus one of individual highlights then at some point we will have to go through this pain and this transition. Might as well do it with Ten Hag. Which is why the Arteta comparison is apt, they had to go through the pain to get to where they are now. Are they winning leagues? No, but Arteta has them in the best shape that they have been in decades.
When it comes to ETH, it's probably worth mentioning that his main shortcoming is his inabilitiy to create roles for different players in the context of the team. He is failing at the head coach part of the job, he would be on the hotseat in pretty much all big clubs because the way he is coaching and managing the first team doesn't actually give any obvious direction, a DOF can't work with that.
Let's first just see if he can turn it around and go from there. If the alternative is Potter, then we have nothing to lose.
Get some players back, a settled team and time between games. Get a striker of some quality in January if possible and let's see.
If he does turn it around, and honestly it's not a big job, 2 of the teams above us are Spurs and Villa, we've seen it many times how clubs start well but drop off at the business end, then a new DOF and set up works with him going into next season, we finally do things properly.
If he doesn't turn it around, he goes. Hopefully by then all Potter purists are rounded up and he's banished to the dark lands of Reading or Coventry so we don't commit an act of self harm in appointing him.
We gained 48 points from this point last season while also having close to 20 extra games on top. We don't have those extra games, bar the FA Cup and we'll, you've seen how part time clubs benefit from a reduced workload.
That's a fair question to ask. I also think it's fair of people to question whether he should be given more time or money given how this summer and this season went. Ultimately, it's all hypotheticals - if we keep losing at the rate that we are, there will be no choice but to make a change.
Klopp? Did you see the team he inherited? Of course it was going to take a good structure and many signings to become a top team, because they were absolutely shit back then. It's beyond ridiculous to compare us to that Liverpool project he took on. If you want to make that comparison then it still looks unfavourable on Ten Hag. OK the season before hadn't been great under Ole, but we had far more quality than Liverpool had after his first summer.
And your last point is moot because ETH wanted such control over transfers to take the job. Of course we should have told him to sling his hook, but it's what he wanted and, as we're a complete joke, we listened to fans (who in hindsight, didn't really know what they were asking for in Ten Hag) and gave him the job. Let's face it, the guy underestimated the PL in both transfers and tactics and can't find a way out now. The early signs were there at Liverpool in 2015 with Klopp, everybody was talking about it. We've seen nothing like from Ten Hag. Besides, I'm pretty sure Klopp even took that dismal Liverpool squad to two finals in his first season.
We were talking about giving him chance to turn it around for the past 2 months, how much of this should we really allow to slide? The sooner we stop allowing managers to drag us into the dirt the sooner we'll get some standards back. And what metric are we measuring this turn around? Style of play? Beating top teams? Results? I'm extremely confident now after 18 months that Erik Ten Hag isn't the man to overthrow the likes of Pep or Klopp. He's not smart enough tactically, he's not got the character to lead a team at this level to major honours.
If you're happy to try and compete for top 4 until the day Ten Hag decides to feck off then good for you. But he'll be overtaken by the next crop of managers (Arteta already has) and We'll just become a nothing club with no standards and a group of fans living in a happy bubble because they've still got the manager they proclaimed was 'the next Pep' or 'a hybrid of Pep and Klopp' etc.
He was given 400 million or the club spent 400 million?
A manager doesn’t set the fee for a player, the club negotiates it. In uniteds case we always get poor value , that’s not our managers fault.
I swear some of you have Stockholm syndrome when it comes to the dysfunction of the club, it’s like you attack the hostage negotiator trying to get your released from bondage.
Well he's won an FA cup, which is better than a League Cup. He's finished 2nd which is better than 3rd. 84 points is better than 75.
Also dont think Arsenal have ever lost 7-0 or 6-3 to Spurs since Arteta has been there.
Yeah, spot on here. It's so predictable but short-sighted for people to go after the fees we paid and the players ETH got. As you said, he doesn't set the fee. He doesn't fail to negotiate a transfer for KMJ when he has a release clause. He doesn't decide to pay 90m for Antony. ETH has been getting a lot wrong lately but criticizing transfer fees is fairly idiotic.
So ETH did nothing wrong?
Well we know he insisted on the huge fee for Antony at the very least. And considering his agent apparently has his hands all over our transfers, it's very safe to assume ETH knew exactly what he was doing with regards to fees and his budget. It has been mentioned in The Athletic that he was aware of fees and budgets and he chose signings accordingly.
Of course he knew the fees and his budget. We knew the fecking fees and our budget from the media, weeks and monthhs before these deals were done. The club actually even negotiated some fees down. In the case of Antony, Ajax said exactly what it would cost and we paid it. We even spent out of the following years budget to give Ten Hag the player because he insisted.
And let's not forget the FdJ farce, which he was at the middle of...
I did see the team and also that Liverpool just missed out on the title due to an event we all celebrate since the year before.
Ten Hag took over a United side that just finished 6th, which is where Liverpool finished the season before Klopp, though he didn't take over until a montbor so into the season... Where they finished 8th. 8th and finals? Not really comparable is it?
They then, with both Klopp and Edwards shot up to 4th. The benefits of a proper structure were clear but they also benefited from not being in Europe and focused on getting back into the Champions League.
United didn't challenge for the title 2 seasons ago, we hadn't even won a trophy for 6 years when ETH came in. To claim United were in a better position is false.
United were a mess. Liverpool were a mess. 4 years it took Klopp to take them from that mess to a real force again.
Klopp didn't identify any of the major players that contributed to Liverpools success either. A very important thing to remember and why the important of a DOF is massively underestimated by some (though that's through choice as I know you all know, you're not daft, it just doesn't suit your current view to acknowledge it).
Give over - we knew nothing. The media also said we were nailed on to get KMJ who had a release clause. How did that work out?
You don’t need to stick with a shit coach just because he can keep time or punish players. A proper management structure with the likes of Blanc and Brailsford along with a professional director like Mitchell would sort that out.
What you’d need from your head coach is tactical acumen, game planning and player development, all of which Ten Hag has come up short throughout the season.
A convincing loss against Liverpool will seal his fate. Can't see any other outcome.
We couldn't afford him because Ten Hag prioritized Mason Mount.
There’s nothing wrong with a manager saying who he wants the club to sign.
Only the club can empower the manager, make those signings and negotiate the fee. You can say the players he wanted haven’t Been great, but the clubs 11 year abysmal record at transfers and squad management is consistently sh*t regardless of manager. I think a bigger issue is the fact we have an appalling record when it comes to signings and squad management.
There is not many, if any , players we have signed where it looked a good deal.
When you look at Uniteds spending and pretty much any half decent run club, you can discount our budget anywhere up to 50% in terms of value for money. So 400mil spent at United might be 200mil to other clubs. Given our return on players I’d say that’s generous.
Like when Moyes, LVG,Jose and Ole went, we will still be stuck with clowns bidding on the wrong signings until SJR or something else drastically changes.
Ok, what sort of manager do we need?
Instant success? So not a Klopp, Pep or Arteta (depending on what you consider success) type manager. United wouldn't afford them any time and certainly in Klopp or Artetas case they'd be long gone before they achieved anything at United. Klopp wasn't exactly pulling up trees those first 3 seasons...
Perhaps we need someone who comes in and wins eaely. A season 1 title winner. Erm, Conte? Probably not a good idea.
You'd think every other manager walked into a club and was an instant success but the reality is that almost never happens. Our biggest rivals certainly didn't experience that and honestly, half our fans would have demanded all 3 of their managers be sacked before they came good. It's not even in doubt tbh. Imagine a United manager being allowed 3 or 4 seasons before they even had what you could consider a decent season. Not a chance.
Doesn't help when positions in the starting line up are being given out in Happy Meals.
You don't think ETH should/could have said "hang on, I know Antony, don't spend half my budget on him."
Nothing to do with the club not being able to sell McTominay or Maguire of course.
Ten Hags fault that though, should have donned a cheap suit, fired up the Volvo estate and gone door to door. Only way they were leaving in the summer. Absolute joker that guy.
It's been repeated to them a lot, so likely not
Yep, can't beat a cultist.
Complete speculation.
Proof in the pudding will be the general desire and performance/style of play even with our supposed second-stringers. If we get thrashed I would assume the performance and desire will also be low. I could be wrong.
Guessing when he said to sign him, it was for the £40million figure branded about. Someone obviously got carried away in the negotiations, which ETH had nothing to do with of course and somehow we ended up paying double.
If we are going to attribute blame to people, let's make sure it's stuff they are at fault for. ETH wanted Antony, hasn't worked out. ETH didn't pay £80million for him though. How do you know he wasn't pulling his hair out when he heard the fee?
See you at Jonestown
LVG won an Fa cup. Mourinho and Ole both finished 2nd. Arsenal are run better than our club. They have young hungry players. We have players on 300k who are just there for the money. ETH has had to deal with a lot of stuff of field or does that not play a part in anything?
Nah as a manager knowing Antony would cost upwards of 90m you know that’s not his true valuation and look elsewhere, the club gave him a player he requested and he’s a complete flop.
The players signed are so clearly his choice most of them are ex colleagues there’s no excuse what so ever.
He must know Antony isn’t worth 90m and if he didn’t that’s even more alarming
Basic financials he must know if the club spend 90m on one of his targets that budget comes out of further signings
Nah, everyone expects us to be battered by liverpool. The final nail in the coffin will be when villa beat us at OT, then its curtains for ten hag.
I remember watching a video of a small boy talking about how it was his dream to one day sign Jonny Evans.
That young boy grew up to become Erik Ten Hag and has achieved his life's dream.
If only he didn’t spunk 60m on a player we don’t even need (Mount) he could have had a perfect partner for Jonny - Kim
You believe ETH's input was "I want Antony" and then absolutely no involvement at all from then on. Not even an update on how negotiations were going for months? That he had no clue about the fee until the deal was done?
This in the club where we're told the manager has huge say on transfers.
Again there isn’t a world where EtH had an option of buying Antony for 90 million or a better more reasonably priced winger.
The club would of overpaid for whoever then went for as they are inept at negotiations.
Blame EtH for Antony’s performance on the pitch NOT the transfer fee Manchester United agreed to pay Ajax.
He rubber stamped the deal, just like how Ole could've gone for a cheaper cb than Maguire back in the day.
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