Ten Hag would already be out of a job if it wasn't for those two so it's a good job he didn't.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I don't think he sets the fee, but he surely has to be aware of how it's going along and could say, that's too much, he ain't worth it. We'll make do until someone better and more reasonably priced is available.
I don't think it's like some sort of Leeds scenario where David O'Leary asked about Rio Ferdinand and has no idea what happens, then all of a sudden gets told, "yeah, that Rio Ferdinand, we just paid 18m for him" or "here's Seth Johnson, he's on 30k a week"
He had to be aware, but it was a situation exasperated by time constraints and need, he needed a right winger, Ajax knew it, the club knew it. So they paid what they had to to get it done, over paying is what happens when you have no plan and leave shit until the last minute.
He would have been kept updated, at least you'd think so. Money however isn't his concern nor should it be. United overpaying or being fleeced isn't Ten Hags doing.
Nor is it his fault it took until September to sign him. The usual story of a long drawn out saga involving United. Even if he had pulled the plug, the chances of getting an alternative were slim.
Also, these people are all adults. Highly paid elite athlete adults at that. Even if you want to blame Ten Hag for their signing entirely, it's hard to blame him for their performances. Antony for one certainly isn't guaranteed a place in the starting 11 and Ten Hag has criticised his performances. If a player isn't performing, isn't it largely on them? Take Maguire, cast away by Ten Hag yet when the chance came, look how he has reacted. Is that down to Ten Hag because of we criticise their failings as his fault, then are their successes also down to him? Or is it because Maguire acted like a professional football, pulled his socks up and took his chance when it came?
Blaming Ten Hag for how the signings are performing would be like crediting him for Garnacho and Mainoo. Don't see any of you doing that though and nor should you. But using your own logic, he brought them into the team so must be responsible.
No!
But who are these reasonably priced players?
United overpaid for Antony, Casemiro, Martinez, Onana, Hojlund…the club is simple incapable of negotiating. It doesn’t matter who the managers is.
Maybe. I'll take your word for it.
Might have replaced them though, badly no doubt but who knows.
Blaming him for his performance means praising him when he's good. That will never happen.
I think there were a few reports of us looking at alternatives towards the end and some Dutch reports suggested the high fee was partly down to Ajax being left unable to replace him.
United just aren't very good at buying players. It's an issue we've had for a long time, across many managers and we've even had more than one person responsible for negotiation.
If we take the reports of Ten Hags first choice signings, our team would look quite a bit different to what it does. I'm not even convinced sone of them were anything to do with ETH but we're opportunities offered to the club and given the failure to bring in his preferred options, he agreed to them. Pretty sure Madrid offered us Casemiro rather than we went to Madrid for example.
The Ajax players are on him, plus Onana and Eriksen. Mount as well because he's wanted him in the past. The rest? Especially the loans. Not sure about that tbh.
Money is his concern because he'll know his budget going into the window. He knows Antony is half his budget gone. It directly affects him. He knows the player better than anyone at the club.
So you don't think it even possible or slightly reasonable for him to put his hand up and say "hang on, this isn't the sensible way to build a squad "
Remember this is his signing, his player.
When you say Antony isn't performing. I think he is. He's performing in line with his ability.
I'm sure there are some players out there with reasonable release clauses. If all else fails, we could've gone for Kudus when Ajax were reluctant to sell their starter Antony, before he blew up and looked even better.
And if all else fails, I would've paid 60-80m for Doku. It's not just about the money, it's about the quality.
Even if true, we might at least have overpaid for a good player. We've just massively overpaid for a poor player.
The story about recruitment scouting something like 80 odd full backs and settling on AWB for 50 million springs to kind.
The entire structure is doomed to fail.
Do we know he didn't? As I mentioned in another reply, I recall reports that we had started looking at alternatives so maybe he had. Or maybe it was simply a case of being left with little choice in the end. Tbh we might have been better without him but you know what, we'd be complaining about not having a right winger just as we did before Antony.
Even if budgets are his concern, we don't know what they are. The press don't either. How do we know it's half his budget? Pretty sure Antony was closer to 1/3rd of our total spend and United would have dropped big money on De Jong if we could, even in top of Casemiro in the end. It's not even as if the "budget" applies to that window anyway, transfers are spread over years. Ten Hags actual spend is more like £80million per year for those concerned about finances due to amortisation.
You may be right about this being his level though.
We should really stop doing that tbh.
Annoyingly we also keep buying players who look really good elsewhere only for them to be really poor here. We'd sign Haaland and end up with Wout. Just checked on Wout and he's already scored 4 in the bundesliga
To make things worse, that was the last time there will be a group stage in the champions league and we ended last in it, and next year with the debut of the new champions league format we won't be in it. New champions league format we miss all the excitement.
Thanks ETH.
Thanks ETH.
The lack of a proper DOF doesn't excuse the performance on the field in case of Eth, because he has been given a free reign in terms of the targets. Managers in other clubs would kill for $400M for their targets. Yes everyone agrees that its gross mismanagement by the club, but that is no excuse. If say, Eth didnt get the players he wanted and Mount, holjund and Onana were forced on him, then it can be a valid justification.
In a scenario where we have a competent DOF, and they said no to the summer signings because they believed they are not worth it and got him alternatives, lets say Ziyech, Raya and Watkins. What if we still played like how we have, wouldnt the fans go, "Well the DOF is shite, if Eth had gotten the players he needed, we would play well"??
Yes, we desperately need a change above the manager, Nobody would disagree. But for me and many others, the point is there is no reason to believe that under a better management, Eth would succeed, because he is not able to get the best out his very own signings, yet we are expected to believe that he will somehow get the best out of players selected for him. It may have worked in Ajax, but there were also a myriad of factors that coudl have contributed as well. Its the same a claiming, Jose had won the PL with Chelsea, so there is no reason he could fail here.
Well put.
Having it hard is one thing. ETH didn't get it bad. Woodward was gone when ETH came and didn't force transfer on him. He got power to rid players more so than previous managers.
Good CEO, Good DoF, great structure don't necessarily guarantee short term turn of fortune. It's geared toward longer run, where the good ones outperform better than bad ones. Not that bad signings never happened. Liverpool, Man City, Bayern, PSG under Blanc as their CEO... still got some dud signings. It's still the head coach job to keep thing together, especially where head coach was given money to pick and choose his familiar former players.
Ajax had more margin for error because they're simply richest club in Netherlands. They can go after players their domestic rivals wouldn't be able to afford. This is not true for us. A good recruitment team can identify the perfect fit, doesn't mean we would be able to get that player in timely manner, even if at all. The head coach has to do well for long period to survive the job; not excuse himself due to unflavored circumstances.
Sorry bit late to reply. That was kind of my point - Arteta had a much worse team IMO (who had been out of CL for a few years by that point) and wasn’t as heavily backed financially by the club. He did manage to win an FA Cup, which gave him some credit in the bank.
You are spot on about the money wasted on those two instead of waiting for the right players
This point is the key difference.
Even their long term manager in Wenger failed to get CL places. Arsenal under Arteta even when they finished consecutive in 8th place had a decent record against the teams in top half of the league. So that team wouldn't do any good until that finally get fixed.
In comparison, our team is well capable to finish in top 4 without the manager to be exceptional. When we perform as bad as we are and under previous managers, it's clear the managers stopped getting the players to perform to a decent level even when the managers had his own signings bring changes, not to rely on "bad characters"
We didn't overpay for Onana (unless you are taking into account his performances since joining), and only slightly overpaid for Martinez.
We generally do overpay, but there's a difference between overpaying massively for someone who is very limited and doesn't have the ability to become a great player, and overpaying for someone who can be a good player for us for years to come. Antony is obviously the former, even though I don't think he's been as bad as most people make out. Mount might have more ability (hopefully), but he really was not the right player to spend such a big fee on with one year left on his contract. It was ETH who chose those two players to overpay so significantly for.
We’ve been terrible in the CL for years. It’s not our level and that’s why a huge reset is needed at the club.
People seriously suggesting that's how it went. ETH said "sign him for up to 40 million", someone got carried away in the negotiations and ended up paying 90m and ETH was like "shit, oh well"
"We somehow ended up paying double" sounds totally legitimate.How do you know ETH wouldn't have wanted Antony if the price was 150mil?
That's how player negotiations work. It's an auction like you see in the movies and a smartly dressed assistant keeps bidding higher and higher on behalf of the reclusive, but incredibly rich boss.
His tactics, in game management and training regimes are all terrible. We repeat the same mistakes game after game after game.
What makes people think that this will all of a sudden change?
The guy is out of his depth and that isn’t going to magically change once the ownership situation is resolved.
What makes people think that this will all of a sudden change?
The guy is out of his depth and that isn’t going to magically change once the ownership situation is resolved.
Agreed and it's a shame as I genuinely thought he was going to be a great manager for us but this season he seems clueless and we need a change in all departments.
One of the benefits of signing players that the manager has worked with before is he's not getting unknown quantities. He knows what their capable of, how they train, their weaknesses and their ceiling etc.
I find it unlikely that Murtough wouldn't have been updating Ten Hag on the pursuit of Antony, and the manager would have had a fairly good idea of the figures that were being demanded to get the deal done. Murtough doesn't operate in a vacuum, he'll share that information with Ten Hag - especially when there's a risk that overspending can impact other targets or the next transfer window.
What the manager should have done is make Murtough aware that he wanted the player, but not at a cost of £82 million. He more than anyone in world football would have known his true value, so I can only assume he felt he was worth the money.
Which brings his judgement (which we've seen with a few of his signings) massively into question, but that's another topic.
I find it unlikely that Murtough wouldn't have been updating Ten Hag on the pursuit of Antony, and the manager would have had a fairly good idea of the figures that were being demanded to get the deal done. Murtough doesn't operate in a vacuum, he'll share that information with Ten Hag - especially when there's a risk that overspending can impact other targets or the next transfer window.
What the manager should have done is make Murtough aware that he wanted the player, but not at a cost of £82 million. He more than anyone in world football would have known his true value, so I can only assume he felt he was worth the money.
Which brings his judgement (which we've seen with a few of his signings) massively into question, but that's another topic.
So long as it’s not an annihilation right lads?
Avoid annihilation.
6-0 will be seen as progress then.
6-0 will be seen as progress then.
You'd like to think that the media are just making up whatever they want by now and that's not something they've been told.
Surely he would have had a big say with fee as we can all remember fergie using the whole no value in the market line in his last few years at the club and nothing has changed at this club in terms of the power the manager has on recruitment
I am waiting for a tweet with something like "Well placed sources say that man united could win lose or draw against Liverpool" at this stage
Luckhurst is such an insufferable little shit
This.
We are not even doing the basics right. A DOF or a better structure won't fix that. There was a poster in the matchday thread claiming that Galatasaray and Copenhagen are better run clubs than Utd so they won. "Better run" and "structure" are modern day buzzwords here for anyone claiming some level of accountability from the manager.
I look at the CL group collapse in a different way. I think people are correct when they say we really should of been able to qualify second comfortably, I totally agree with that sentiment.
I think of how unsettled things have been and regardless of whether its ETH fault and/or other things, I wonder how it affects everything within the team.
Ok so, I think of Conte, Jose, Ranieri, even Pool team last season , where teams that win leagues or get to exceptional levels in one season can fall apart in another. There are multiple reasons for this but its not usually the presumption that the manager is incapable of succeeding. Something changes, it can be even momentum and continual knocks that grind down a teams confidence to the point where they lose games they really shouldnt. Sometimes the clubs they manage dont build on the success which knocks them back. They cant reverse the collapse and the managers usually get the sack. But its not always the managers fault and sometimes its just bad luck or a team that couldnt maintain the levels.
Now I know people will say "well United have been sh*t all season", which is again fair. But this for me is why we under performed in europe. The teams confidence is wafer thin. We have taken so many knockbacks this season and there are so many issues, that we just dont have any credit in the bank to be able to overcome even weaker teams. Ironically, some of our best moments have been against stronger teams like Spurs and Arsenal even if we didnt win.
I dont think ETH cant coach or isnt able to manage in game situations (he didnt do bad last season). I think that the mood at the club (for so many reasons) is so low, it really doesnt matter what ETH is doing in many ways. The question is if he can recover or get through this period. I dont think its mostly ETH fault, as most of the issues will be still here if he leaves, but he needs a break. He needs something to change the direction of things, even a draw at Pool would help. I just think the club is drowning and its taking everybody down , which is what its done for 11 years.
I get some will want to see this as a defence of ETH, I have not once said he couldnt do better. I am just trying to understand why we might of struggled in that group when I do agree with the statement that we should of qualified (even with all the stuff going on).
Guess the positivity from takeover could be ETH's last hope.
It's ten years of players and managers arriving and expecting a Las Vegas penthouse (Disneyland for adults), but finding a Hammer House of Horror. One by one they sink into the fear and incompetence that is Manchester United. It starts at the top and percolates down.
A fair question has been “how bad does it need to get before sacking ETH”?
If it was a normal season, there was no injury issues or other dramas , I’d be thinking ETH is gone. But it just hasnt been that simple , no matter how much peope want to call these things just excuses.
I don’t know the answer to how long ETH should get becauses I don’t know what is going on in background. I don’t know if this ownership thing is really unsettling everybody (hard to see how it wouldn’t to be fair) or to what degree it might be impacting the dysfunction.
I don’t know has ETH fallen out with players and/or what parts of it are his fault. Sometimes players just don’t want the hassle and decide to check out regardless of manager. There’s players many of us want gone and don’t want any United manager to have to play or use.
A manager will ultimately fall on their sword based on results. I don’t think it’s always a managers fault when they inevitably get the boot but that’s the game.
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