Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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TheReligion said:
Ten Hags system is admittedly high risk high reward. He now wants to add that extra man in the attacking third and move to a 1-2 in midfield rather than a 2-1 that we used last season.

The reason for this as the 2 extra pressing/creative midfielders help overload the opposition with the 3 forwards and win the ball back through pressing in tandem. Again this falls down without everyone pulling in the same direction and the player he earmarked to carry out this role with Bruno has been injured (Mount).

Now I’m not sure how this set up will look when everyone is fit, or even if Casemiro could be a better option higher up the pitch given his ability to read the game, but we will have to see.

I do think Ten Hag is trying to implement his style but my criticism would be he’s gone too early and we simply don’t have the options and depth to do so yet.

My other concern would be he’s essentially ripped up the Casemiro-Eriksen fulcrum which worked well last year and the pair enjoyed (Casemiro was interviewed saying they got on well and had a good understanding together). This may explain why he struggled earlier this season and found it hard in the new set up.

My other gripe would be about the recruitment. Hopefully this will become more joined up imminently with INEOS coming in.

I’m not sure what the future holds for Casemiro and Eriksen in particular as this new set up doesn’t appear to fit their style of play (I’m willing to give both a chance though as they are quality player’s). I just don’t see which role they could seamlessly slot in to. That said, I do think things will look more organised when we get the correct players back in the right areas.

Has Ten Hag gone too early? Should he have carried on with last seasons style of play or pushed forward with his vision? The injuries have almost certainly blindsided him as I suspect both Mainoo and Amad were in his plans with the latter a potential fit for the Mount role alongside Bruno.
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For me I can see why Ten wanted to make the change in midfield this season. Last year we showed improvement in our pressing from the front and at times scored from winning the ball back high up the pitch.
Also by bringing in a physical and high energy striker and a midfielder that tracks back as well as being good going forward I can see how he thought this would improve us in this area.

As you say this style is dependent on cohesion and there has been a multitude of reasons why this hasn’t happened, injuries at crucial times to key players being the main issue. Also the form certain players who you normally can ‘ rely’ on haven’t been consistent and a due to the lack of continuity replacement players have struggled as much as those they replace.

With the Casimero and Eriksen conundrum I can see the points you make and questions you raised but yet again I can see why the manager made the changes he made. The tandem as good as they were at times last season also had average games and due to their age profile they were never going to be the core of our future midfield. To me it was a short term solution to either other players found form or purchases were made. Mainoo I believe was earmarked to come through and others in the youth team will get a chance too.

Our purchases and the lack of clarity with the takeover has had a massive effect as it’s difficult to operate under uncertainty and I believe when we finally off load players who can’t progress the squad the added finances can help us purchase the centre back and future deeper/ holding midfielders to replace the ageing players.

I’m not saying he is beyond criticism but I can see the logic in his decisions and intention in his processes most of the time. Injuries and drama meant he is almost working from the bottom up rather than on the positives of last season. Hopefully once players settle in and core players return we can improve.
 
Fortitude said:
Ideally, you have the 1st team, then their understudy with similar attributes, then the few who can cover multiple positions and after that, the academy players all being honed to be 3rd’s as cogs should the first team and sub guys be out. There shouldn’t be any single point failures because that would make a faulty system, so I hope that is being worked on in the grander scheme.

What rubs the wrong way is implementing before time and pieces are in place, especially so if so many aren’t suited. There can be a halfway point between last season and this in terms of tactical planning and deployment, but if this is going full steam ahead, perhaps the plan is to add even more to it in the upcoming window.

Another issue is high octane football is not sustainable either in the mid or long-term. Our rest in possession phases aren’t clear and too much verticality without resting phases is very high risk in terms of the full season. There’s a fair amount of tuning to be done.
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Yeah I agree with much of that.

I think the poor pre season, injuries to Mainoo/Martinez/Shaw, the ownership and Greenwood saga, have all had an impact negatively. Sancho too along with the loss of form and/or other issues with Rashford and Varane.

He has had it tough I feel.

bond19821982 said:
Eriksen's legs are gone mate. He isn't playing that high press high tempo game anymore. I also think we will release him for free next year.
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I like Eriksen as he’s a classy player but I do agree. Not sure where he fits in to things now. How would you use him?

Borninthe80ts said:
For me I can see why Ten wanted to make the change in midfield this season. Last year we showed improvement in our pressing from the front and at times scored from winning the ball back high up the pitch.
Also by bringing in a physical and high energy striker and a midfielder that tracks back as well as being good going forward I can see how he thought this would improve us in this area.

As you say this style is dependent on cohesion and there has been a multitude of reasons why this hasn’t happened, injuries at crucial times to key players being the main issue. Also the form certain players who you normally can ‘ rely’ on haven’t been consistent and a due to the lack of continuity replacement players have struggled as much as those they replace.

With the Casimero and Eriksen conundrum I can see the points you make and questions you raised but yet again I can see why the manager made the changes he made. The tandem as good as they were at times last season also had average games and due to their age profile they were never going to be the core of our future midfield. To me it was a short term solution to either other players found form or purchases were made. Mainoo I believe was earmarked to come through and others in the youth team will get a chance too.

Our purchases and the lack of clarity with the takeover has had a massive effect as it’s difficult to operate under uncertainty and I believe when we finally off load players who can’t progress the squad the added finances can help us purchase the centre back and future deeper/ holding midfielders to replace the ageing players.

I’m not saying he is beyond criticism but I can see the logic in his decisions and intention in his processes most of the time. Injuries and drama meant he is almost working from the bottom up rather than on the positives of last season. Hopefully once players settle in and core players return we can improve.
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Good post mate
 
TheReligion said:
Yeah I agree with much of that.

I think the poor pre season, injuries to Mainoo/Martinez/Shaw, the ownership and Greenwood saga, have all had an impact negatively. Sancho too along with the loss of form and/or other issues with Rashford and Varane.

He has had it tough I feel.



I like Eriksen as he’s a classy player but I do agree. Not sure where he fits in to things now. How would you use him?



Good post mate
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Cheers dude. Hopefully we see progress.
 
TheReligion said:
I think it was said that EtH is stubborn and can be fixed in his ways. I guess that will always attract criticism when things aren’t going well.
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I'm not too sure about that stubborn bit. It's fairly clear now where he wants the team to go in terms of tactics, but United hasn't played like that very often yet - and I think not just because of a poor execution of game plans. Like, he allows Maguire and Lindelöf to play lower, which is a compromise that creates the giant hole around the DM. And I'm pretty sure Rashford and McTominay have primarily been playing because of their goal threat, because while they're not great contributors to the system, nobody else is scoring goals sufficiently. He also probably gives Dalot and AWB different instructions from Shaw, and so on and so forth.

It depends how you define 'stubborn', of course (are the things I mention too small?), but I think he has been compromising on his vision quite a lot the past 1.5 years to try and make things work with the current squad.
TheReligion said:
I like Eriksen as he’s a classy player but I do agree. Not sure where he fits in to things now. How would you use him?
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I guess he'll be phased out. Didn't Eriksen himself say in a Danish interview during an international break this season that there isn't really a role that fits him well in the current setup anymore?
Fortitude said:
Good post. With a condensed field we won’t look so open in midfield because the #6 will be equidistant and triangulated with the attacking midfielders.

The final version of this system requires a huge amount of agility and recovery pace from the defensive line tasked with handling breaches, but everything else occurs in the opponent’s half.
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It's possible - you can recruit for that of course. United's problem is that they need three new CBs for that (2 RCBs and one LCB alongside Martínez). LB is probably fine for now between Shaw and Malacia (or maybe Reguilón), and then at RB there should probably be a new starter as well instead of either Dalot or AWB (either is probably acceptable as back-up). That's just a lot of recruitment and then you're only done with defense - while obviously there are huge gaps in front as well (too few quality wingers and just one decent striker), and DM is basically open with Casemiro possibly leaving and Amrabat being a loan and back-up option. But it is all doable with a little patience (and not too many duds).
 
Cheimoon said:
I'm not too sure about that stubborn bit. It's fairly clear now where he wants the team to go in terms of tactics, but United hasn't played like that very often yet - and I think not just because of a poor execution of game plans. Like, he allows Maguire and Lindelöf to play lower, which is a compromise that creates the giant hole around the DM. And I'm pretty sure Rashford and McTominay have primarily been playing because of their goal threat, because while they're not great contributors to the system, nobody else is scoring goals sufficiently. He also probably gives Dalot and AWB different instructions from Shaw, and so on and so forth.

It depends how you define 'stubborn', of course (are the things I mention too small?), but I think he has been compromising on his vision quite a lot the past 1.5 years to try and make things work with the current squad.

I guess he'll be phased out. Didn't Eriksen himself say in a Danish interview during an international break this season that there isn't really a role that fits him well in the current setup anymore?

It's possible - you can recruit for that of course. United's problem is that they need three new CBs for that (2 RCBs and one LCB alongside Martínez). LB is probably fine for now between Shaw and Malacia (or maybe Reguilón), and then at RB there should probably be a new starter as well instead of either Dalot or AWB (either is probably acceptable as back-up). That's just a lot of recruitment and then you're only done with defense - while obviously there are huge gaps in front as well (too few quality wingers and just one decent striker), and DM is basically open with Casemiro possibly leaving and Amrabat being a loan and back-up option. But it is all doable with a little patience (and not too many duds).
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Yeah I think the intention to offset is players like Timber and Todibo who are eclectic and have the know-how to play pseudo positions in both build up and defensive phases in [very] open space. It's not just about how good they are purely as sitting defenders but how rapidly and intelligently they deal with insertion, whether that's inverting, stepping up into midfield or directly tracking runners from a high line on the turn.

You can see it's a profile removed from generic CB's and FB's because it asks for so much more and gives so much more in terms fluidity and condensing the pitch.
 
Fortitude said:
Yeah I think the intention to offset is players like Timber and Todibo who are eclectic and have the know-how to play pseudo positions in both build up and defensive phases in [very] open space. It's not just about how good they are purely as sitting defenders but how rapidly and intelligently they deal with insertion, whether that's inverting, stepping up into midfield or directly tracking runners from a high line on the turn.

You can see it's a profile removed from generic CB's and FB's because it asks for so much more and gives so much more in terms fluidity and condensing the pitch.
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Yeah, that's something that Timber is good at it: he understands the RCB and RB roles, is comfortable marauding upfield - and he is at least adequate as a defender. That's a lot of ability to cover in one player. (If not top-class ability in every single aspect, of course.) He is at Arsenal now of course, but surely Ajax are not unique and players of that profile can be found if the United's scouting apparatus is attuned to this.
 
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Won Manager of the month award with an injury crisis and underperforming squad. Not bad.
 
"sacked in the morning" they chanted while getting manager of the month
 
phenry said:
I would prefer to stick with EtH but the irony of the compete lack of impact of Mount, the questionable start of Onana, combined with the ultimate importance of Maguire and McT, two players that he tried very hard to get rid of, is not lost on me. Throw in what a waste of money Antony is with our ability to do ok without Case and Varane and I'm simultaneously impressed with how well we've done and horrified at his transfer strategy. Good manager but should not be trusted with transfers
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He didn't sign Varane. Wait until season's end to judge the transfers - last season all of them added something to the team, we've had a really rough patch which has been overblown by the media, everyone is so keen on here to write off or champion a player after a few games but this season could end up a complete disaster or quite a good one still. We're only a 3rd of the way through and we are 9 points of 1st despite being in 'crisis' and 0 points of the CL places.
 
what a weird ass season so far. Feel like weve mainly played like absolute shit for most of it. Yet still within striking distance of the lead, which isnt the usual city team steamrolling everyone. So you have to think arsenal will drop some points as well and we could possibly close the gap.

or we lost the next couple of league games and back to doom and gloom. Either way.
 
Love that ETH wanted that team photo with the 3 awards our players and manager won. He’s saying it’s a team effort which will surely make everyone feel vital and important. That’s good man management.
 
Cheimoon said:
Yeah, that's something that Timber is good at it: he understands the RCB and RB roles, is comfortable marauding upfield - and he is at least adequate as a defender. That's a lot of ability to cover in one player. (If not top-class ability in every single aspects, of course.) He is at Arsenal now of course, but surely Ajax are not unique and players of that profile can be found if the United's scouting apparatus is attuned to this.
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It's an interesting progression; players no longer have to best in class, rather, eclectic and skilled over a gamut of roles and duties.

Timber looks very comfortable in midfield on top of being a pseudo full-back and his nominal CB role, so long as a player like that reads and understands where he needs to be and what he needs to be doing at any given time, he becomes a serious asset. Pep has been ahead of the game in this sense for the English game but obviously this is pretty standard stuff within the Dutch schools of thought.
 
FerociousCorgis said:
what a weird ass season so far. Feel like weve mainly played like absolute shit for most of it. Yet still within striking distance of the lead, which isnt the usual city team steamrolling everyone. So you have to think arsenal will drop some points as well and we could possibly close the gap.

or we lost the next couple of league games and back to doom and gloom. Either way.
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Newcastle away imo was the low point of the season, followed by Chelsea match which was our best performance of the season.

No wonder you feel like it go either way.

Need to see these type of performances for a run of matches
 
vanrooney said:
Manager of the month but apparently shit and deserving the sack. It just shows how much power the media has, that crucified him already and invents stories about player unrest
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Doesn’t help that our “fans” indulge them.

this place as bad as twitter sometimes.
 
MadMike said:
it’s not 4–2–3–1. It’s 4–1–4–1. That’s what all average position graphs show. No one has any idea how this is supposed to work.
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We press high, Hojlund splits the cb‘s, the ball goes to the side, we close them in on the side. If the ball goes through the middle, we press the receiver immediately.

When it doesn‘t work, it‘s because players aren‘t doing their job. The back four can‘t be a mile from the front five.

In possession, one or both full backs move up, the cb‘s split, dm drops in to help build up.

Our line up is really 4-1-4-1, although Bruno is everywhere.
 
jackal&hyde said:
Yeah but this will always happen with United. We can either win the title and go far in the CL or we are in crisis, there is no in between for the media with us.
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absolutely. in fact to a degree that is ok, as we should aspire to be on top but on the other hand its all about transformation and continuity as thats the only way to get back on top. my wish would be that we as fans of the club just support eth as he has a big task in front of him and ignore the media, as the media wont do anything for us. its logical as they make money with bad news. one of the biggest problems are our ex players who have no idea what is happening right now at the club and may even have not the intellectual capacity to interprete whats happening. they were top players but that has nothing to do with managing such a club. in fact its a bit like in the late 90s and early 2000 when we were top and liverpool had their ex players talking shit and made it hard for their team to get better. like saf did, it needs to be we against the world again - its systems theorie by luhmann et al you have to follow. it was hard in the times of saf to be alone against the media but it is even harder today with social media, so coudos to eth for making unpopular decisions. therefore the role of the fans shouldnt be underestimated and i can only hope that there are more and more people who dont let them get misleaded by cheap stories but stay behind the team and the manager. and our ex players would do the club a favour when they just stop being pundits - could be an option to just give them money from the club to stop this bad influence. would be one action i would suggest a new ceo at least
 
NLunited said:
We press high, Hojlund splits the cb‘s, the ball goes to the side, we close them in on the side. If the ball goes through the middle, we press the receiver immediately.

When it doesn‘t work, it‘s because players aren‘t doing their job. The back four can‘t be a mile from the front five.

In possession, one or both full backs move up, the cb‘s split, dm drops in to help build up.

Our line up is really 4-1-4-1, although Bruno is everywhere.
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In attack yes, but I do think there was a slight difference out of possession against Chelsea. I think we moved to a 4222 our of formation. More narrow, but also with the ability to move wide easily through both the striking positions and behind them. Earlier in the season, the 4141 kept transitioning at wrong moments to a 4231, with the transition, being based on full back and midfield movements causing gaps. We also had. Casemiro veering forward to, which also led to a lot of gaps. For the Chelsea game, the full backs were not as fluid. Amraabat was also pretty settled both in attack and defence in his position. Plus the narrowness of the press meant that filling in the role next to amraabat if need would come from players higher up the pitch, meaning that the defence would be stable. It's a small tweak, but one which allowed us to attack without being as open as we've been most of the season. We also played a higher line. A faster pair at the back ( Licha will be coming back soon), could lead to more dominant football. Luckily we aren't too far away in the league to make a comeback.
 
NLunited said:
We press high, Hojlund splits the cb‘s, the ball goes to the side, we close them in on the side. If the ball goes through the middle, we press the receiver immediately.

When it doesn‘t work, it‘s because players aren‘t doing their job. The back four can‘t be a mile from the front five.

In possession, one or both full backs move up, the cb‘s split, dm drops in to help build up.

Our line up is really 4-1-4-1, although Bruno is everywhere.
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I wrote this in the post match forum. Does anyone see Bieslas Leeds team or is it just me. Does this sound like us-
Leeds was basically a 4-1-3-1 although on paper a 4-3-3 or in transition 3-1-3-1.
Press relentlessly,
use the fullbacks to push up. Wingers would come inside to give them space
Bamford would split the strikers.
They had no midfield. I remember McTominay walking through them at will
Thet split the CB's from build up with the keeper.
One CB would sometimes break out and help ith the attack - like Maguire has started to do.

I can go on. Its been a few years now but when I saw that Chelsea game it finally clicked what was up. Now I dont think ETH is copying it literally. He will put his own spin on it. Like the man to man marking. I remember Leeds left back Ayling? following Son right back to Totenhams box one game. But ETH was just recently asked if he is using man marking and he said that would be stupid we do zonal. But it sure looks like it sometimes. Thats why everyone wonders why Wan B and Dalot on the other side are not in position. When Mainoo came on against Galatasary he looked like he was man marking that dude who scored. I also makes sense why Casemiro and McTominay are scoring so many. They are pushing up with the advanced 4.

All these managers Pep, Poch etc were inspired by Biesla so ETH would have been too.
 
NLunited said:
We press high, Hojlund splits the cb‘s, the ball goes to the side, we close them in on the side. If the ball goes through the middle, we press the receiver immediately.

When it doesn‘t work, it‘s because players aren‘t doing their job. The back four can‘t be a mile from the front five.

In possession, one or both full backs move up, the cb‘s split, dm drops in to help build up.

Our line up is really 4-1-4-1, although Bruno is everywhere.
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Yeah it’s 4141

It’s hard to do it right because some of the players have quite complicated jobs and it’s not that easy for them to recognise the moments when they need to shift position. It takes a lot of drilling and match practice. The “playing style” incorporates “routines” but, I’m thinking there’s a lot of them and they need drilling.

That’s one reason why the injuries have been such an issue for us - everyone is learning new “routines” but we get injuries and the routines don’t get engrained in the players. Eventually it will start to click imo. It’s just a bit agonising waiting for that day to come.
 
Caellum said:
Ten Hag named Barclays Manager of the Month (premierleague.com)


Erik ten Hag has been voted November 2023's Barclays Premier League Manager of the Month.
Ten Hag's Manchester United had a 100 per cent winning record and were the only team not to drop a point, earning victories in all three Premier League matches.
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Sorry to sound like a grinch, but Manager of the Month award doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

Ange won it the past 3 times - how's Spurs doing now?

ETH himself won it past February, what happened after that at Anfield?

Come back when we start winning major trophies again under ETH.
 
Winrar said:
Sorry to sound like a grinch, but Manager of the Month award doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

Ange won it the past 3 times - how's Spurs doing now?

ETH himself won it past February, what happened after that at Anfield?

Come back when we start winning major trophies again under ETH.
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We made two finals and won the Carabao cup last season. And you think he's incapable of winning major cups?
 
Alex99 said:
You don't think literally every club that's won it counts in their total trophy haul?
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Obviously it counts in the trophy haul but top teams never prioritise it hence the reason most teams play 2nd choice players in it. Unless your desperate for a trophy like we was last year so went full strength.
 
DJ_21 said:
Obviously it counts in the trophy haul but top teams never prioritise it hence the reason most teams play 2nd choice players in it. Unless your desperate for a trophy like we was last year so went full strength.
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Certainly the lowest of the major cups, but it's still a major cup.
 
Escobar said:
He needs a big win next imo, like a top 4 team, preferably Pool away
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I would give my left bollock to beat Liverpool at their place. Literally everyone has us down not only to get beat but to get absolutely annihilated. It's time we got them back.
 
DJ_21 said:
Obviously it counts in the trophy haul but top teams never prioritise it hence the reason most teams play 2nd choice players in it. Unless your desperate for a trophy like we was last year so went full strength.
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It's a major trophy. Always has been. Same as the Europa League/UEFA Cup.

Not the most important, sure, but still a major honour.

United didn't go near full strength until the semi-final, which is about par for the course for any of the PL teams in it.

The early rounds see some heavy rotation because generally the opposition will be weaker, with a fair chance of being from a lower division. Same is true for the FA Cup. Teams might go a bit stronger if they draw another PL team early on.

Even in the CL groups you see the better teams rotating a bit against the lesser sides.

United's line-ups last season, for reference:

vs Villa - Dubravka, Dalot, Maguire, Lindelof, Malacia, McTominay, Fred, Fernandes, van de beek, Rashford, Martial

Martinez, Eriksen, Elanga, Casemiro and Garnacho off the bench. De Gea, Shaw, Pellistri, Shoretire unused.

vs Burnley - Dubravka, Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, McTominay, Malacia, Eriksen, Casemiro, Garnacho, Fernandes, Rashford, Martial

Shaw, Williams, Antony, Fred and Elanga off the bench. De Gea, Bennett, Pellistri, van de Beek unused.

vs Charlton - Heaton, Malacia, Maguire, Martinez, Dalot, Fred, McTominay, Mainoo, Garnacho, Elanga, Antony

Wan-Bissaka, Eriksen, Casemiro, Pellistri and Rashford off the bench. De Gea, Lindelof, Shaw, Iqbal unused.

Semi-final first leg against Forest was the first time we saw anything resembling "full strength".
 
Escobar said:
He needs a big win next imo, like a top 4 team, preferably Pool away
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Liverpool 1-0 after playing them off the park. Højlund with a last minute screamer. And then my missus walks into the room, naked, covered in jam.
 
Alex99 said:
It's a major trophy. Always has been. Same as the Europa League/UEFA Cup.

Not the most important, sure, but still a major honour.

United didn't go near full strength until the semi-final, which is about par for the course for any of the PL teams in it.

The early rounds see some heavy rotation because generally the opposition will be weaker, with a fair chance of being from a lower division. Same is true for the FA Cup. Teams might go a bit stronger if they draw another PL team early on.

Even in the CL groups you see the better teams rotating a bit against the lesser sides.

United's line-ups last season, for reference:

vs Villa - Dubravka, Dalot, Maguire, Lindelof, Malacia, McTominay, Fred, Fernandes, van de beek, Rashford, Martial

Martinez, Eriksen, Elanga, Casemiro and Garnacho off the bench. De Gea, Shaw, Pellistri, Shoretire unused.

vs Burnley - Dubravka, Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, McTominay, Malacia, Eriksen, Casemiro, Garnacho, Fernandes, Rashford, Martial

Shaw, Williams, Antony, Fred and Elanga off the bench. De Gea, Bennett, Pellistri, van de Beek unused.

vs Charlton - Heaton, Malacia, Maguire, Martinez, Dalot, Fred, McTominay, Mainoo, Garnacho, Elanga, Antony

Wan-Bissaka, Eriksen, Casemiro, Pellistri and Rashford off the bench. De Gea, Lindelof, Shaw, Iqbal unused.

Semi-final first leg against Forest was the first time we saw anything resembling "full strength".
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In the 3 games you mentioned with them line ups we had 7 first teamers in the line up against Charlton, 9 against Burnley and about 8 against villa. That’s pretty strong if you ask me. When pundits and people talk about major trophy’s though they often refer to the premier league and champions league. I mean I’m buzzing when we win any trophy. I still get the same feeling if we win the Carabao or Fa cup. All adds to our trophy cabinet at the end of the day. Was just stating what I believe ‘major’ means when talking about trophy’s
 
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