Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Going against the grain here but why would you refuse to let players know training schedules in advance? We would all be furious if our employers did that to us.
Also in terms of intensity of fitness training sessions; some of these players will be running themselves into the ground with the scheduling these days. Surely it would make more sense to flog laps out the likes of Rashford and give Bruno (or Nacho/Antony after last night) a sun lounger.
 
Are we really training harder than any other premier league club? ETH is right, the standards and the work rate across the league are higher than ever. And it's not like we're ahead of everyone, we're actually still behind most top clubs. So where is this coming from? Sounds just like players finding an excuse for their poor form.
 
December_16 said:
I get it. But they sure led the way and set the tone. If this is unanimous sentiment among the full squad, shouldn’t Bruno and even Maguire be part of the group as well?
Senior/leadership my arse, they’re just a bunch of whiners.

EDIT: That said, I think I should know better than taking everything posted on Twitter too seriously.
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What are you talking about?

The article literally says the majority of the dressing room have not complained nor have all of the leadership group.
 
Tom Van Persie said:




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I wonder what that actually means. Cause as @uwotm8 said above, overall training schedules must be fixed; but it also makes no sense to assume that Ten Hag hides those schedules from players. I mean, what possible advantage would there be to that? And after a week everyone anyway realizes it's from 10-12 every non-matchday, or whatever.

So I'm curious what this refers to. Is there a lot of adjustment to schedules at short notice to deal with varying game times, which could be planned more in advance? (Since kick-off times are known well in advance.) Or is this about extra sessions for players who didn't play in a match and therefore need additional heavier training sessions alongside the lighter sessions McTominay mentioned?

I also don't get the days off part. I suppose training frequency is set in consultation with a physio who determines what rhythm will lead to optimum fitness. Are they questioning that process, or is it not actually being followed, or what's at issue here?

And then there's the part where it's unnamed 'senior players' making these requests, meaning that people get to make up whatever best fits their interpretation of squad dynamics - about which in reality we know next to nothing.

All these little reports always seem clear but they're really not.
 
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uwotm8 said:
Going against the grain here but why would you refuse to let players know training schedules in advance? We would all be furious if our employers did that to us.
Also in terms of intensity of fitness training sessions; some of these players will be running themselves into the ground with the scheduling these days. Surely it would make more sense to flog laps out the likes of Rashford and give Bruno (or Nacho/Antony after last night) a sun lounger.
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Why believe some tweets for no reason?
 
uwotm8 said:
Going against the grain here but why would you refuse to let players know training schedules in advance? We would all be furious if our employers did that to us.
Also in terms of intensity of fitness training sessions; some of these players will be running themselves into the ground with the scheduling these days. Surely it would make more sense to flog laps out the likes of Rashford and give Bruno (or Nacho/Antony after last night) a sun lounger.
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Training schedules must change based on the minutes players make. No way to predict them is there?
 
HookedOnAPhelan said:
This is what it's going to take for us to get back to the top. Smoke out the losers.
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Varane and Casemiro losers, what nonsense are we going to hear next?

Anyway, the squad is suffering from a lot of injuries as well as lack of energy/stamina in games. The point of training is to prepare you for the match and if you overtrain it’s quite likely you’ll achieve the exact opposite results on the pitch.

For me it’s completely counterintuitive to think all these players are somehow lazy and unmotivated. Some of these are serial winners who have reached the very top of their profession. Footballers also have short careers so they are driven by a desire to win, to maximise their earnings and to have longevity. Without knowing what actually happens, I find entirely probable that a desperate coach is pushing them too hard and they are simply voicing their concerns. As opposed to a whole bunch of seasoned professionals suddenly being “lazy”.
 
MadMike said:
For me it’s completely counterintuitive to think all these players are somehow lazy and unmotivated. Some of these are serial winners who have reached the very top of their profession. Footballers also have short careers so they are driven by a desire to win, to maximise their earnings and to have longevity. I find entirely probable that a desperate coach is pushing them too hard and they are simply voicing their concerns, as opposed to a whole bunch of seasoned professionals suddenly being “lazy”.
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Martial, Rashford and Sancho are clearly unmotivated, and have been under multiple previous managers.
 
No doubt people will pick sides and not consider the merits of what the squad is asking for. This doesn’t have to be framed as the players being lazy or disruptive.

In terms of EtH’s performance, I’ve firmly been on the side that he should be let go at the end of the season because I think he and the team are still good enough to get CL qualification.

If he’s able to produce more games like yesterday then he’ll probably change my mind.
 
RedOrange said:
Martial, Rashford and Sancho are clearly unmotivated, and have been under multiple previous managers.
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If the tweets are to be believed, Martial and Sancho were NOT the ones complaining though. Sancho is training on his own and is out of the squad as far as we know, unlikely he would be complaining about training schedule anyway.

I don’t know about Rashford being unmotivated under various managers. He certainly has his peaks and troughs though.
 
Cheimoon said:
I wonder what that actually means. Cause as @uwotm8 said above, overall training schedules must be fixed; but it also makes no sense to assume that Ten Hag hides those schedules from players. I mean, what possible advantage would there be to that? And after a week everyone anyway realizes it's from 10-12 every non-matchday, or whatever.

So I'm curious what this refers to. Is there a lot adjustment to schedules at short notice to deal with varying game times, which could be planned more in advance? (Since kick-off times are known well in advance.) Or is this about extra sessions for players who didn't play in a match and therefore need additional heavier training sessions alongside the lighter sessions McTominay mentioned?

I also don't get the days off part. I suppose training frequency is set in consultation with a physio who determines what rhythm will lead to optimum fitness. Are they questioning that process, or is it not actually being followed, or what's at issue here?

And then there's the part where it's unnamed 'senior players' making these requests, meaning that people get to make up whatever best fits their interpretation of squad dynamics - about which in reality we know next to nothing.

All these little reports always seem clear but they're really not.
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The more you read it, the less sense it makes and is written in that classic journos style that makes me think it’s BS.
 
Cheimoon said:
Those first games clearly did not go well though. I don't think how things played out during the match (like a player's number of passes) could be seen as representative of what Ten Hag really wants. It also sounds like a stretch to me that Ten Hag would play someone because they are good in the air at defensive corners and wide free-kicks - but he did talk time and again about needing goals, and needing players that contribute to that. But yeah, as with any modern system, a lot of automatisms are required. If United do drop out of all European competitions, Ten Hag would have a lot more time on the training pitch to get those ingrained. (Although you'd think that's what pre-season would have been for.)

Do you have a link to that ten Hag interview on McTominay and players staying back btw?
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It comes towards the end of the official post match press conference on the club website. Carl Anka of the Athletic has been asking midfield system questions at various pre and post game press conferences over the last couple of months, trying to make sense of whether McTominay and Fernandes are being reckless (common view on Redcafe) or simply following the instructions. Sometimes he gets answers that give a clue as to what Ten Hag intends, other times there isn't much clarity. Carl has spoken about this on at least 3 of the Athletic's United podcasts in the last few months (it may come up more often than that but I don't listen very often).

By the way, I agree that McTominay is in the team to score goals. Ten Hag is clear that Scott's focus is goals.
 
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December_16 said:
I’m shocked, SHOCKED, to see the likes of Rashford and Varane on the list of complainers. Case is perma-injured, he should just shut the feck up. Heaton is GK #3, what is he chatting shite about? Shaw gets a pass from me, the chubby lovable fecker.

Speaks volume when the actual captain and ex-captain are not part of this whining group. Incidentally they have run their socks off and performed well in recent games too.
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Tweet says they are on the leadership group but not all of them have complained. Vast majority still very much behind him.
 
DJ_21 said:
Don’t show this to the ETH haters. They’ll still find reason to criticise it.
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You can't really argue with the results but we're over performing and got lucky on several occasions. The league position could be a good base to build on - changes narratives, translates into belief and such. Players will return from injury and we'll keep getting better.

On the other hand, ultimately you either trust your eyes or data. For me both are saying we still can't build up / press the opposition / create chances consistently. It's very possible we'll be back in crisis mode by Jan.

Bournemouth (H), Liverpool (A), West Ham (A), Villa (H), Forest (A), Spurs (H).

4 very difficult fixtures sandwiched with CL games, cup games, festive fixture congestion etc.
 
the media is always ABU....the scrutiny this club faces only clubs/players like munich, barca, madrid clubs can understand

media loves seeing united struggles as it sells papers and gets clicks
 
Teja said:
You can't really argue with the results but we're over performing and got lucky on several occasions. The league position could be a good base to build on - changes narratives, translates into belief and such. Players will return from injury and we'll keep getting better.

On the other hand, ultimately you either trust your eyes or data. For me both are saying we still can't build up / press the opposition / create chances consistently. It's very possible we'll be back in crisis mode by Jan.

Bournemouth (H), Liverpool (A), West Ham (A), Villa (H), Forest (A), Spurs (H).

4 very difficult fixtures sandwiched with CL games, cup games, festive fixture congestion etc.
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Call me a pessimist all you want but I concur with this.

We'll see where we are after January. Wolves away after those fixtures won't be that easy either considering they've troubled many teams at Molineux this season, along with our lackluster opening day performance.
 
I know we won, and that's great but can someone explain to me how this 4 2 3 1 is supposed to work.

McT bombs up field to try and score where I presume he's linking up with the 2 attacking wide players , Bruno as a 10, and our centre forward.
That leaves 1 sitting in front of the back four. Which is why, I assume, teams come charging through us in the middle of the pitch.

So how is this a good set-up plan ? How is it supposed to work in ETH's mind ?
 
He’s the man for this club, back him. He’ll have to improve our away results soon when we visit the bigger teams though

I also hope we show up and beat Bayern midweek
 
kundalini said:
It comes towards the end of the official post match press conference on the club website. Carl Anker of the Athletic has been asking midfield system questions at various pre and post game press conferences over the last couple of months, trying to make sense of whether McTominay and Fernandes are being reckless (common view on Redcafe) or simply following the instructions. Sometimes he gets answers that give a clue as to what Ten Hag intends, other times there isn't much clarity. Carl has spoken about this on at least 3 of the Athletic's United podcasts in the last few months (it may come up more often than that but I don't listen very often).

By the way, I agree that McTominay is in the team to score goals. Ten Hag is clear that Scott's focus is goals.
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Thanks! I found the transcript at https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...-utd-2-chelsea-1-old-trafford-6-december-2023. This is the relevant bit:
Scott McTominay today, five in the Premier League. He's playing a lot more advanced than he has in previous seasons. Is this something you're trying, to bring him up more? To play less deep and to score more goals?
“Absolutely, yes. He has the skills and, when he is arriving and he has the skills to arrive there in the right moment. He has the snout. And then he has a very good finish. But talking about dynamics, sometimes he is deep and sometimes he is lower. But in our tactics, in our planning, our game plan is often that we want him to be high. So the team has to to make it happen, that he can come high, that he can come into positions where is around a striker and then he can make a run. And as I said, he has a very good smell when to arrive. And then he has also very good finish. And then the team has to make sure that we bring the ball with him.”
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I wonder what he thinks of the bit I underlined. From reading the next sentence, it seems to me like he doesn't want that to happen (McT being positioned deep) (posts that feel sexual but aren't!). So when it does, is something going wrong in the execution of the gameplan, or is it something unavoidable that they reluctantly accept will happen? That's not clear to me.

Some decent questions in that press conference btw.
 
Cheimoon said:
I wonder what that actually means. Cause as @uwotm8 said above, overall training schedules must be fixed; but it also makes no sense to assume that Ten Hag hides those schedules from players. I mean, what possible advantage would there be to that? And after a week everyone anyway realizes it's from 10-12 every non-matchday, or whatever.

So I'm curious what this refers to. Is there a lot of adjustment to schedules at short notice to deal with varying game times, which could be planned more in advance? (Since kick-off times are known well in advance.) Or is this about extra sessions for players who didn't play in a match and therefore need additional heavier training sessions alongside the lighter sessions McTominay mentioned?

I also don't get the days off part. I suppose training frequency is set in consultation with a physio who determines what rhythm will lead to optimum fitness. Are they questioning that process, or is it not actually being followed, or what's at issue here?

And then there's the part where it's unnamed 'senior players' making these requests, meaning that people get to make up whatever best fits their interpretation of squad dynamics - about which in reality we know next to nothing.

All these little reports always seem clear but they're really not.
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Reading between the lines it sounds to me like Ten Hag gives the schedule a week at a time but reserves the right to change his mind and call players in for extra training if he isn't happy with performances.

I think from the players point of view they would like more notice so they can plan to do things with family or friends and know they won't have to cancel at the last minute.

Just me guessing though.
 
MadMike said:
Varane and Casemiro losers, what nonsense are we going to hear next?

Anyway, the squad is suffering from a lot of injuries as well as lack of energy/stamina in games. The point of training is to prepare you for the match and if you overtrain it’s quite likely you’ll achieve the exact opposite results on the pitch.

For me it’s completely counterintuitive to think all these players are somehow lazy and unmotivated. Some of these are serial winners who have reached the very top of their profession. Footballers also have short careers so they are driven by a desire to win, to maximise their earnings and to have longevity. Without knowing what actually happens, I find entirely probable that a desperate coach is pushing them too hard and they are simply voicing their concerns. As opposed to a whole bunch of seasoned professionals suddenly being “lazy”.
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First thing is who knows how much of the report is true.

Let's assume it's true. I don't think we are in any position to take sides. The tendency would be to assume lazy players but we don't know any information on their fitness, training schedules, other team trainings to compare. To me there just is no way to know which side to take. Read it and ignore.
 
Stig said:
I know we won, and that's great but can someone explain to me how this 4 2 3 1 is supposed to work.

McT bombs up field to try and score where I presume he's linking up with the 2 attacking wide players , Bruno as a 10, and our centre forward.
That leaves 1 sitting in front of the back four. Which is why, I assume, teams come charging through us in the middle of the pitch.

So how is this a good set-up plan ? How is it supposed to work in ETH's mind ?
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it’s not 4–2–3–1. It’s 4–1–4–1. That’s what all average position graphs show. No one has any idea how this is supposed to work.
 
MadMike said:
it’s not 4–2–3–1. It’s 4–1–4–1. That’s what all average position graphs show. No one has any idea how this is supposed to work.
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Based off the match against Chelsea, it's key is pressing with the advanced 5, with the full backs backing that press higher. That still leaves us vulnerable if the press is played thru but it's a lot better than the disjointed mess we've seen so far. Big caveat, this was Chelsea and this was one game.
 
mav_9me said:
First thing is who knows how much of the report is true.

Let's assume it's true. I don't think we are in any position to take sides. The tendency would be to assume lazy players but we don't know any information on their fitness, training schedules, other team trainings to compare. To me there just is no way to know which side to take. Read it and ignore.
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You are correct, we don’t really. But what I don’t like here is that while we don’t really know anything people always eager to call players lazy, uncommitted or such things and attack their character. They might simply be voicing what they feel works best for them. They are experienced athletes and professionals, they will know their bodies and if training is taking too much out of them.

I remember when Mourinho was blaming players in his conferences about not coming back early from injuries and refusing to play while having injuries/niggles and some total sheep bought it and were blaming the players for putting their health above their employment/club. In my mind a coach, especially when he is under pressure and becomes desperate, is far more likely to start mismanagement of the players than suddenly a whole bunch of players showcasing a complete lack of common professionalism. It’s a story as old as employment.
 
Belisarius said:
Reading between the lines it sounds to me like Ten Hag gives the schedule a week at a time but reserves the right to change his mind and call players in for extra training if he isn't happy with performances.

I think from the players point of view they would like more notice so they can plan to do things with family or friends and know they won't have to cancel at the last minute.

Just me guessing though.
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MadMike said:
it’s not 4–2–3–1. It’s 4–1–4–1. That’s what all average position graphs show. No one has any idea how this is supposed to work.
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It's why we bought Mount in the first place. The plan for the season has always been a single DM and two advanced #8s. He wavered a bit when he went back to Eriksen from Mount to get more control but this is what he wants out of the second mid.

Of course the problem is we're short a man in build up, the DM has to do too much when surrounded by like 3 oppo players. His answer to that is to simply go long and use the two advanced #8s to counter press.

It's been argued to death on the tactics vids but he's sticking to his guns. Having Shaw will help him quite a bit.
 
MadMike said:
You are correct, we don’t really. But what I don’t like here is that while we don’t really know anything people always eager to call players lazy, uncommitted or such things and attack their character. They might simply be voicing what they feel works best for them. They are experienced athletes and professionals, they will know their bodies and if training is taking too much out of them.

I remember when Mourinho was blaming players in his conferences about not coming back early from injuries and refusing to play while having injuries/niggles and some total sheep bought it and were blaming the players for putting their health above their employment/club. In my mind a coach, especially when he is under pressure and becomes desperate, is far more likely to start mismanagement of the players than suddenly a whole bunch of players showcasing a complete lack of common professionalism. It’s a story as old as employment.
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I actually don't disagree with you.

I just think the 2 things are equally likely, that the manager is willing to say misuse/ overuse players (cuz he is under pressure) or there is a section of players who want less training ( rightly or wrongly)

At the end of the day we just don't have enough data, so I'd withhold any judgement, bias aside.
 
mav_9me said:
Based off the match against Chelsea, it's key is pressing with the advanced 5, with the full backs backing that press higher. That still leaves us vulnerable if the press is played thru but it's a lot better than the disjointed mess we've seen so far. Big caveat, this was Chelsea and this was one game.
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I think Chelsea broke through quite a few times and a better team would have punished us. But that said we did objectively do better than in the past with the press. We covered more of the pitch and pressed Chelsea more efficiently.

I will post a couple of average position graphs vs Chelsea and City earlier in the season.

vs Chelsea:


vs City


So there’s improvement. But I still feel once opposition breaks through the first line of press, the distance between DM+Defence and the pressing 5 is too big and exploitable, particularly through the middle. Dalot appears quite high in that Chelsea report but otherwise we’re basically two banks of 5. And that can also be a problem when we try to progress the ball.
 
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MadMike said:
I think Chelsea broke through quite a few times and a better team would have punished us. But that said we did objectively do better than in the past with the press. We covered more of the pitch and pressed Chelsea more efficiently.

I will post a couple of average position graphs vs Chelsea and City earlier in the season.

vs Chelsea:


vs City


So there’s improvement. But I still feel once opposition breaks through the first line of press, the distance between DM+Defence and the pressing 5 is too big and exploitable, particularly through the middle.
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Which has been mind boggling for me. How the hell is that supposed to work?

As you said it was happening in first half against Chelsea too, not at much in the 2nd half where I thought we pushed up more, and were more compact

Hopefully this Chelsea game is a sign of tweaking things rather than a reflection of Chelsea.
 
It sounds like the training sessions when I was a kid: “coach are we going to play today?”, “no, only running today.”
 
Teja said:
It's why we bought Mount in the first place. The plan for the season has always been a single DM and two advanced #8s. He wavered a bit when he went back to Eriksen from Mount to get more control but this is what he wants out of the second mid.

Of course the problem is we're short a man in build up, the DM has to do too much when surrounded by like 3 oppo players. His answer to that is to simply go long and use the two advanced #8s to counter press.

It's been argued to death on the tactics vids but he's sticking to his guns. Having Shaw will help him quite a bit.
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And Martinez, cause I'm thinking once Ten Hag dares positioning his CBs much higher, the lines will be closer together and the single DM won't be as isolated. Maybe.

Edit: Ha, this might also respond to what @mav_9me was asking just above!
 
Teja said:
It's why we bought Mount in the first place. The plan for the season has always been a single DM and two advanced #8s. He wavered a bit when he went back to Eriksen from Mount to get more control but this is what he wants out of the second mid.

Of course the problem is we're short a man in build up, the DM has to do too much when surrounded by like 3 oppo players. His answer to that is to simply go long and use the two advanced #8s to counter press.

It's been argued to death on the tactics vids but he's sticking to his guns. Having Shaw will help him quite a bit.
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Yeah I can see that plan, I’m just not sure how it’s supposed to work.

The DM has too much to do both in the build-up and defensive phase. That’s why I am quite keen to protect Casemiro, Amrabat and Mainoo from criticism this season, they are asked to do near impossible tasks in this formation. They both have to find a way to safely progress the ball to the front 5 through the opposition press and then also be the first defender when the opposition breaks through ours.

People criticise Amrabat for playing it safe and making many sideways/backwards passes while Casemiro gets blamed for the opposite, trying through/long balls that often get intercepted… it’s just not fecking easy when you’re meant to be a midfield on your own. And our current CBs don’t help much in the build up either (with Martinez injured). While for example you can see for City that Stones is stepping into midfield to help Rodri in the build-up.
 
Cheimoon said:
And Martinez, cause I'm thinking once Ten Hag dares positioning his CBs much higher, the lines will be closer together and the single DM won't be as isolated. Maybe.

Edit: Ha, this might also respond to what @mav_9me was asking just above!
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That's the thing right, if you, me, @MadMike , and everyone on Twitter can see that and wonder, surely ETH sees it too. I mean he knows more football than everyone on redcafe combined. So hopefully he is tweaking things and it's not just a case of " lads, it's Chelsea".
 
mav_9me said:
That's the thing right, if you, me, @MadMike , and everyone on Twitter can see that and wonder, surely ETH sees it too. I mean he knows more football than everyone on redcafe combined. So hopefully he is tweaking things and it's not just a case of " lads, it's Chelsea".
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I think that my big problem with this formation, is that I cannot see how against a competent team the build-up phase of our play doesn’t devolve into the DM or the GK punting long balls to the front 5. Because any competent team will quickly put pressure on the DM and then he will either have to pass it backwards/sideways due to lack of options (and then eventually to the keeper for a punt) or he will have to punt it himself.

But all successful teams of the last 7-8 years were really good possession teams that could progress the ball without punting it. And that’s what we all hoped Ten Hag would bring here. I don’t see how against a competent team, the ball doesn’t get turned over and come back at us again and again, until we eventually concede a goal. Just like what happened in the weekend against Newcastle.

It’s also the reason why we can’t see out games, like in the UCL against Copenhagen or Galata. When the opposition smells blood and they press us, we can’t keep the ball and slow the tempo down in this system. We just punt it, it comes back and the pace becomes frenetic. Some times we will score on the break and some times we’ll just concede despite being the better team and on-top for most of the game.

It’s not a sustainable way to play and win trophies, for me. Which is why I say that while I see what ETH is trying to do, I don’t understand how it’s meant to work, in terms of bringing the level of play and results that we expect to one day see.
 
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