Kojack
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Why oh why didn’t he listen to them??
The response against Chelsea was good, he also did the right thing by dropping Rashford and Martial who were dreadful against Newcastle. I feel he is running out of time at the club and needs a few solid results to cement his place or he will be gone by January / February.
I bet, even if we drop out of every competition or contention for the Top 4 slot, he will get till the summer. They wont make such a major decision like this without the new investor's input.
For me, that's the scary thing. A good system needs to be good enough to carry players who aren't at their best.
I'll be honest, I haven't been Ten Haag's biggest fan as of late, but I've always been more concerned about the system working than anything else. For me, this is the first time its looked like I'd expect it to since the Palace League cup game. The pressing worked fantastically and we were actually able to transition well using it. The defensive line seemed much higher and we weren't reverting to hoof ball. I honestly think Ten Haag allowed the players to actually play on Wednesday. The long ball, no midfield period of late October to November was clearly on purpose. Not simply tactical failure, but an attempt to temporarily get by. This bodes the question, what exactly was the reason for doing this? Amrabat and Mctominay have been available all season. I honestly don't see the reason why we were so cautious prior to this game, choosing to not even risk setting up to build up.
With more performances like this, I'll get my trust in Ten Haag back. I'm not in the school that think Chelsea being bad led to this. I think Chelsea weren;t great on the ball, but I also saw a slight change in pressing shape. It was a bit more narrow, almost becoming a 4222 at times. This led to Chelsea playing a bit more frantically at the back. We also played with a lot more tempo than we have in recent weeks, a similar style and tempo with a better pressing shape that we used against Spurs earlier in the season. I guess this is why I'm a bit annoyed. In the Arsenal game for example, I saw massive signs that we could break down the press against Arsenal and we seemed to just never build on that or even attempt to build on that. It's felt like we've purposely wasted two months of play, due to mistrust that I don't know which position it's directed to.
Money?
Maybe read article? They tell you exactly why
It’s suppose to work (I suspect) by playing Martinez and having the defensive line push higher up the pitch along with the 6.
Shaw should invert to be that second man too.
This would make us more compact and resistant to the counter.
The issue we have though is Shaw has been injured and Martinez still is. That loses our ability to invert and Martinez in a high line with his front foot style defending. Now Shaw is back we are having to use him between LB and LCB. Varane has also been unreliable, injured and lost his place (possibly something else going on with him too)
Maguire has been playing well but we know both him and Lindelof can’t play high line or on the front foot. (No pace, lack of aggression, inability to move the ball forward quickly and incisively). This becomes a major flaw in the system in my opinion and means we drop deeper and the 6 becomes more isolated.
Ten Hag almost certainly wanted another CB in the summer and ended up with Evans on a free due to the Glazers and how the club has been mismanaged.
What? None of Klopp, Pep or Arteta’s system work well if two of their attackers just walk around and offer nothing defensively or in an attacking sense.
The table's starting to look a lot more reasonable. Beat Bournemouth and we'll be going to Anffield in a relatively good shape.
Yes I am sure he wanted another CB. I was saying we really needed one because Varane is often injured. A lot of posters tried to shout the idea down saying Lindelof was “fine as back up” which he absolutely isn’t. I do think we have some good defenders but when Varane is out there is a drop off. Martinez (in form) makes a huge difference as well, of course.
Ten Hags system is admittedly high risk high reward. He now wants to add that extra man in the attacking third and move to a 1-2 in midfield rather than a 2-1 that we used last season.
The reason for this as the 2 extra pressing/creative midfielders help overload the opposition with the 3 forwards and win the ball back through pressing in tandem. Again this falls down without everyone pulling in the same direction and the player he earmarked to carry out this role with Bruno has been injured (Mount).
Now I’m not sure how this set up will look when everyone is fit, or even if Casemiro could be a better option higher up the pitch given his ability to read the game, but we will have to see.
I do think Ten Hag is trying to implement his style but my criticism would be he’s gone too early and we simply don’t have the options and depth to do so yet.
My other concern would be he’s essentially ripped up the Casemiro-Eriksen fulcrum which worked well last year and the pair enjoyed (Casemiro was interviewed saying they got on well and had a good understanding together). This may explain why he struggled earlier this season and found it hard in the new set up.
My other gripe would be about the recruitment. Hopefully this will become more joined up imminently with INEOS coming in.
I’m not sure what the future holds for Casemiro and Eriksen in particular as this new set up doesn’t appear to fit their style of play (I’m willing to give both a chance though as they are quality player’s). I just don’t see which role they could seamlessly slot in to. That said, I do think things will look more organised when we get the correct players back in the right areas.
Has Ten Hag gone too early? Should he have carried on with last seasons style of play or pushed forward with his vision? The injuries have almost certainly blindsided him as I suspect both Mainoo and Amad were in his plans with the latter a potential fit for the Mount role alongside Bruno.
The reason for this as the 2 extra pressing/creative midfielders help overload the opposition with the 3 forwards and win the ball back through pressing in tandem. Again this falls down without everyone pulling in the same direction and the player he earmarked to carry out this role with Bruno has been injured (Mount).
Now I’m not sure how this set up will look when everyone is fit, or even if Casemiro could be a better option higher up the pitch given his ability to read the game, but we will have to see.
I do think Ten Hag is trying to implement his style but my criticism would be he’s gone too early and we simply don’t have the options and depth to do so yet.
My other concern would be he’s essentially ripped up the Casemiro-Eriksen fulcrum which worked well last year and the pair enjoyed (Casemiro was interviewed saying they got on well and had a good understanding together). This may explain why he struggled earlier this season and found it hard in the new set up.
My other gripe would be about the recruitment. Hopefully this will become more joined up imminently with INEOS coming in.
I’m not sure what the future holds for Casemiro and Eriksen in particular as this new set up doesn’t appear to fit their style of play (I’m willing to give both a chance though as they are quality player’s). I just don’t see which role they could seamlessly slot in to. That said, I do think things will look more organised when we get the correct players back in the right areas.
Has Ten Hag gone too early? Should he have carried on with last seasons style of play or pushed forward with his vision? The injuries have almost certainly blindsided him as I suspect both Mainoo and Amad were in his plans with the latter a potential fit for the Mount role alongside Bruno.
I agree. And with the change in ownership, they will not make a rash decision, that would look stupid on Jim
Most fans back ETH anyway. Seems the same way for players as well.
Getting rid of ETH will only make INEOS lose good will from the get go.
I imagine a shrewd billionaire like Sir Jim knows not to fall into this pit fall.
Yes, but at least, you need to RUN, press and track back when you lost the ball with all outfielders as a group together..even if your form is not the best..
If those reports are true then it shows a misjudgement on EtHs part in my opinion.
How have Varane and Casemiro been made part of the leadership group so soon? Both are winding down, neither are loyal to him, Varane sits out for two weeks every time he breaks a toenail, Casemiro came back from pre-season disgracefully unfit.
He's underestimated the power of keeping players like Maguire and McTominay on-side. Those players are loyal to the club, they're good professionals. You don't bomb them out, you steadily improve the team around them.
How have Varane and Casemiro been made part of the leadership group so soon? Both are winding down, neither are loyal to him, Varane sits out for two weeks every time he breaks a toenail, Casemiro came back from pre-season disgracefully unfit.
He's underestimated the power of keeping players like Maguire and McTominay on-side. Those players are loyal to the club, they're good professionals. You don't bomb them out, you steadily improve the team around them.
No system works when you have players simply not trying, which is very different to players not being at their best.
I'd actually argue the Chelsea game goes someway to showing that the system does carry players that aren't at their best.
Antony, Hojlund and Garnacho have one league goal between them, and they all failed to find the net again, but we still created a shed loads of chances and came away with a deserved win.
I think EtH would have known that it would be hard because he had good reason to believe that a few of the players won’t suit this system. But if you have the right players, it is the way to win.
So my guess is he thought last season was a solid base in terms of attainment and gave him some wiggle room to bite the bullet now, knowing that we would lose games.
Sticking to the plan shows the players that they have to play his way and prove that they can deliver. It also weeds out the players who can’t or won’t do it. Sancho’s gone already and you have to suspect that a few others won’t last the course. This in turn helps prioritise areas for recruitment or development.
I don’t think he went too early! But he’s really testing our faith.
Regarding Eriksen and Casemiro. I think Eriksen may stick around as a tactical option but Casemiro (great as he was sometimes) is Saudi bound.
I think ETH has said it himself that when we allow Mctominay to go forward and be a threat one of the other players then has to use there initiative and drop back, that player is I presume Bruno. If we have a really solid DM though who can cover a lot of ground then it won’t be to bad. Or if the opposition is progressing through the middle then I think one of the FBs comes inside to form a 3 man defence with the DM in front of them. We’ve seen city play a 4-2-3-1 and just have Rodri sitting.
I think it was said that EtH is stubborn and can be fixed in his ways. I guess that will always attract criticism when things aren’t going well.
It’s an interesting project and I think it will benefit from a shake up of the recruitment/football structure.
I’m no football expert either but I do find it strange when some posters slate EtH and suggest he’s go no idea or philosophy. Just bother to look and it’s right there.
There are multiple issues with people discussing the club and the manager because quite often we are all shooting in the dark for answers.
Honestly, I find the pasting and following of supposedly ITK tweets quite annoying. Echo chambers giving credibility to “stories” (some click bait, some based on some possible truths) make people act like they are factually true.
I want to believe x and this story by this guy confirms it.
I’m really rooting for ETH like I’ve never footed for a manager since SAF. I just feel like he’s navigating so much crap, more than any manager we’ve had, that he deserves a break. I just want to see him get through this rough patch, for all the dramas and issues of the club settle down and to see what he can do.
Seems like he’s also been a United fan since he was young. While not important, it’s nice to think of a fan bringing us back to the top.
Finally, this sack the manager sh.8t in modern football really annoys me. There are times when a manager should be let go but anything less then 2 years is ridiculous.
Im sick of people saying that injuries, player discipline issues , player external legal issues, club sale , club sh*# transfer abilities in/out, clubs second rate infrastructure (that does affect morale) are just excuses and our manager needs to just manage the team as if all these “excuses” have no affect on squad culture/confidence.
Cop the f**k on people. United is a basket case. We are laughing stock not because of our manager but because of how inept we are at using our resources.
I think it's suicidal tactics tbh and will never work because we'll always get overran when teams beat the press.
Unless you're Crocodile Dundee over at Spurs and only manage 1 point from 15. In which case you're "brave".
I see media are turning on flavour of the month Ange.
Who is our fans favourite alternative today? Such a fickle bunch
It's just mad.
We're not even halfway through the season and we've already gone through about three.
Nah, don't you know the table lies, Utd should be in the bottom half, the seasons over, top 4 is gone, ETH will be sacked after another battering at Anfield....
Well, yes, the difference is that Onana is his player and Sancho isn’t. So there you go.
Good post. With a condensed field we won’t look so open in midfield because the #6 will be equidistant and triangulated with the attacking midfielders.
The final version of this system requires a huge amount of agility and recovery pace from the defensive line tasked with handling breaches, but everything else occurs in the opponent’s half.
On the contrary, it confirms the accusation of favouritism.
And by the way, have you ever heard Ten Hag say “I got it wrong” or “it was my fault” or anything similar? Has he EVER taken responsibility for anything?
Thanks. I also think the system is very specific so if one cog isn’t functioning then it can collapse and look a mess.
The long term vision would be to have squad that can seamlessly fill gaps though and understand the way it functions. The key bits we need to develop are another Martinez type defender and a full back who can be comfortable on the ball and invert (like Shaw).
I wonder if Alvaro Fernandez can be that full back but we definitely need to buy a centre half.
Get in there 
Ideally, you have the 1st team, then their understudy with similar attributes, then the few who can cover multiple positions and after that, the academy players all being honed to be 3rd’s as cogs should the first team and sub guys be out. There shouldn’t be any single point failures because that would make a faulty system, so I hope that is being worked on in the grander scheme.
What rubs the wrong way is implementing before time and pieces are in place, especially so if so many aren’t suited. There can be a halfway point between last season and this in terms of tactical planning and deployment, but if this is going full steam ahead, perhaps the plan is to add even more to it in the upcoming window.
Another issue is high octane football is not sustainable either in the mid or long-term. Our rest in possession phases aren’t clear and too much verticality without resting phases is very high risk in terms of the full season. There’s a fair amount of tuning to be done.
Eriksen's legs are gone mate. He isn't playing that high press high tempo game anymore. I also think we will release him for free next year.
heh
I would prefer to stick with EtH but the irony of the compete lack of impact of Mount, the questionable start of Onana, combined with the ultimate importance of Maguire and McT, two players that he tried very hard to get rid of, is not lost on me. Throw in what a waste of money Antony is with our ability to do ok without Case and Varane and I'm simultaneously impressed with how well we've done and horrified at his transfer strategy. Good manager but should not be trusted with transfers
Manager of the month but apparently shit and deserving the sack. It just shows how much power the media has, that crucified him already and invents stories about player unrest
Yeah but this will always happen with United. We can either win the title and go far in the CL or we are in crisis, there is no in between for the media with us.
Erik manager of the month and Harry player of the month.
The end is near.
The end is near.
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