Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Alex99 said:
For someone so sensitive about "micro-analysing" and "nit-picking", you haven't half narrowed in on me saying you wanted to have a pop at Ten Hag, despite following up by saying I might have got your motivation wrong, but explaining how I interpreted it that way.

I also agreed with you that it wasn't really a message from anyone to anyone about anything, but you've repeatedly missed that too.

I only engaged you on this because of the "desperately wanted rid of him" bit, which you then doubled down on, only to end up editing it out of your post and having a massive tantrum about people defending Solskjaer and blindly defending managers, neither of which are things I've done.

If a few short paragraphs are too much for you and seem like a wall, I can recommend the Biff & Chip books as a starting point to work your way up to something a bit longer.
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Someone likes the sound of his own text.
I’ve changed my original post for you. Give it a rest man.
 
kundalini said:
First PL match of the season, United's line-up had Casemiro as DM then Mount and Fernandes as 8s/10s. Garnacho left, Antony right, Rashford striker.

With Casemiro missing, United are short of players that are good in the air to defend corners and wide free-kicks. Amrabat + McTominay is basically Casemiro + Mount, as was Eriksen + McTominay, even Mainoo + McTominay is a weird version of Casemiro + Mount. If you look at the number of passes Mount attempted and completed during the first two matches, relative to his mins on the pitch, he and McTominay are playing the same role, neither sees much of the ball compared to Fernandes or Casemiro/Amrabat.

The team isn't unbalanced due to McTominay. It's unbalanced because we attack with 6 players, leaving 4 out-field players (2 CBs, DM + one full-back) positioned not inside (or close to) the opposing penalty area. That puts a lot of responsibility on the 4 to make the correct decision as to whether to attempt to regain possession, make a tactical foul, track runners, play offside and so on. We were shambolic against Wolves and still make numerous blunders (see various Chelsea counter-attacks). In theory it could work but it would take a far better understanding of what to do in various circumstances, than seems to be the case right now.

Ten Hag has specifically said this is how he wants the team to play. After the Chelsea match he even explained what he expected of McTominay and of the players that stay back.

Another recurring issue we have is with our wide forwards either not tracking back at all or being too slow to react (Garnacho), thus giving the opposition an overload that leads to confusion in our defence. Many of Newcastle's chances came from this, as did Spurs' opening goal, Galatasaray's 3rd goal.
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Those first games clearly did not go well though. I don't think how things played out during the match (like a player's number of passes) could be seen as representative of what Ten Hag really wants. It also sounds like a stretch to me that Ten Hag would play someone because they are good in the air at defensive corners and wide free-kicks - but he did talk time and again about needing goals, and needing players that contribute to that. But yeah, as with any modern system, a lot of automatisms are required. If United do drop out of all European competitions, Ten Hag would have a lot more time on the training pitch to get those ingrained. (Although you'd think that's what pre-season would have been for.)

Do you have a link to that ten Hag interview on McTominay and players staying back btw?
 
As much as I’m glad we won that game, play the same way against any decent side and we’ll get battered.
 
kundalini said:
First PL match of the season, United's line-up had Casemiro as DM then Mount and Fernandes as 8s/10s. Garnacho left, Antony right, Rashford striker.

With Casemiro missing, United are short of players that are good in the air to defend corners and wide free-kicks. Amrabat + McTominay is basically Casemiro + Mount, as was Eriksen + McTominay, even Mainoo + McTominay is a weird version of Casemiro + Mount. If you look at the number of passes Mount attempted and completed during the first two matches, relative to his mins on the pitch, he and McTominay are playing the same role, neither sees much of the ball compared to Fernandes or Casemiro/Amrabat.

The team isn't unbalanced due to McTominay. It's unbalanced because we attack with 6 players, leaving 4 out-field players (2 CBs, DM + one full-back) positioned not inside (or close to) the opposing penalty area. That puts a lot of responsibility on the 4 to make the correct decision as to whether to attempt to regain possession, make a tactical foul, track runners, play offside and so on. We were shambolic against Wolves and still make numerous blunders (see various Chelsea counter-attacks). In theory it could work but it would take a far better understanding of what to do in various circumstances, than seems to be the case right now.

Ten Hag has specifically said this is how he wants the team to play. After the Chelsea match he even explained what he expected of McTominay and of the players that stay back.

Another recurring issue we have is with our wide forwards either not tracking back at all or being too slow to react (Garnacho), thus giving the opposition an overload that leads to confusion in our defence. Many of Newcastle's chances came from this, as did Spurs' opening goal, Galatasaray's 3rd goal.
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Very good analysis!

I’d even add that the unbalanced approach is voluntary.
To me it was always clear that Ten Hag wanted a high risk high reward style of play, with the team sitting very high up the pitch.
When it works it can be very good, but this is also a strategy that will severely punish any individual error, which we have been guilty of quite a lot this season.
We also don’t have the fast and spatially aware defenders needed to cover the high press. Nor the wingers naturally tracking back with intent.

So yes, in a nutshell we will get exposed on the counter.

But this place needs to make up its mind. When Ange does it down to 9 men, he’s the second coming of Rinus Michels, but Ten Hag is a naive fool. When others do it, they have a clear strategy to take the game up to their opponents even if they get smashed, when we do it’s stupid and a crisis. When we scrape victories it’s also shit.

So unfortunately for Ten Hag, it’s pretty much damned if you do damned if you don’t
 
erikcred said:
Because we've done exactly the same first 20 minutes against other teams and eventually ended up getting beaten just because they had a striker and a midfield.
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Not sure I'd call the fact teams have a striker and a midfield good analysis to be fair.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Not sure I'd call the fact teams have a striker and a midfield good analysis to be fair.
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Your question indicates that you didn't even watch the game. So this all the analysis you get.

Were you expecting cutting edge analysis filled with Opta stats from a random person on a football forum?
 
Zed is not dead said:
Very good analysis!

I’d even add that the unbalanced approach is voluntary.
To me it was always clear that Ten Hag wanted a high risk high reward style of play, with the team sitting very high up the pitch.
When it works it can be very good, but this is also a strategy that will severely punish any individual error, which we have been guilty of quite a lot this season.
We also don’t have the fast and spatially aware defenders needed to cover the high press. Nor the wingers naturally tracking back with intent.

So yes, in a nutshell we will get exposed on the counter.

But this place needs to make up its mind. When Ange does it down to 9 men, he’s the second coming of Rinus Michels, but Ten Hag is a naive fool. When others do it, they have a clear strategy to take the game up to their opponents even if they get smashed, when we do it’s stupid and a crisis. When we scrape victories it’s also shit.

So unfortunately for Ten Hag, it’s pretty much damned if you do damned if you don’t
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There was a tonne of analysis last season showing Pep was using a similar approach. It was the reverse of 'inverting the pyramid' or rather inverting the pyramid again. They often had 5 attackers lined up across the width of the pitch. Stones was stepping into midfield to form a 2 with Rodri. Ake became a key player. The main difference I would argue is that Pep is doing things from a position of strength, with a record of incredible success in his career and with a better squad who had primarily been used to variations of his tactics.

Ten Hag by comparison is working with a more erratic group, injuries this year and without the respect that multiple PL titles gives you.

The argument for me comes down to if it succeeds is it worth it? Is the best version of the 3-2-5 or 3-1-6 going to win titles vs playing a more traditional 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. Should we not pack the midfield for the big away games at least seeing as we get zero points from those matches?
 
erikcred said:
Your question indicates that you didn't even watch the game. So this all the analysis you get.

Were you expecting cutting edge analysis filled with Opta stats from a random person on a football forum?
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Just an opinion that contained more than the fact professional football teams field strikers and have a midfield, thought the bar was quite low, personally.
 
If we get more into a groove we will win more away matches. Confidence is needed to play this brave style, besides hard work from every player.
 
Gordon Godot said:
He brought in lots of players he knew and the benched most of them, several are clearly not good enough. No other manager in a top club across any major league has EVER recruited so many players on this basis.
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Benched who exactly ? We are clearly a better and more funcional side with Licha and Antony on the field and they are guaranteed starters when fit and available.

Eriksen was one of the rare players last year who could bring a ball to the front line and was, alongside Bruno, our top creator who TBH in some types of games got exposed defensively, but in general was an important member of our squad.

Amrabat came this summer and nobody expected him to be an instant starter, more of a player who is adding depth to our midfield options and he is still waiting for a decent run of games to prove himself useful to the squad.

Onana is a clear starter and someone who will maintain his position in the squad in future if he finds a way to deal with his early struggles.

Even if they are all squad/rotation options at the best they are part of our dressing room which still helps ETH’s case of not losing it.

I don’t blame him at all for doing that when you inherit players that have already thrown manager(s) under the bus.
 
Zed is not dead said:
Very good analysis!

I’d even add that the unbalanced approach is voluntary.
To me it was always clear that Ten Hag wanted a high risk high reward style of play, with the team sitting very high up the pitch.
When it works it can be very good, but this is also a strategy that will severely punish any individual error, which we have been guilty of quite a lot this season.
We also don’t have the fast and spatially aware defenders needed to cover the high press. Nor the wingers naturally tracking back with intent.

So yes, in a nutshell we will get exposed on the counter.

But this place needs to make up its mind. When Ange does it down to 9 men, he’s the second coming of Rinus Michels, but Ten Hag is a naive fool. When others do it, they have a clear strategy to take the game up to their opponents even if they get smashed, when we do it’s stupid and a crisis. When we scrape victories it’s also shit.

So unfortunately for Ten Hag, it’s pretty much damned if you do damned if you don’t
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I agree.

Plus Spurs are playing once a week. Yet EtH is meant to take a squad with a fair number of injuries away to Everton, away to Galatasaray and away to Newcastle in the space if 6 days. But gets no sympathy for a flat performance.:rolleyes:
 
I’m shocked, SHOCKED, to see the likes of Rashford and Varane on the list of complainers. Case is perma-injured, he should just shut the feck up. Heaton is GK #3, what is he chatting shite about? Shaw gets a pass from me, the chubby lovable fecker.

Speaks volume when the actual captain and ex-captain are not part of this whining group. Incidentally they have run their socks off and performed well in recent games too.
 
December_16 said:
I’m shocked, SHOCKED, to see the likes of Rashford and Varane on the list of complainers. Case is injured, he should just shut the feck up. Heaton is GK #3, what is he chatting shite about? Shaw gets a pass from me, the chubby lovable fecker.

Speaks volume when the actual captain and ex-captain are not part of this whining group. Incidentally they have run their socks off and performed well in recent games too.
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It says they haven’t all complained by the way
 
December_16 said:
I’m shocked, SHOCKED, to see the likes of Rashford and Varane on the list of complainers. Case is perma-injured, he should just shut the feck up. Heaton is GK #3, what is he chatting shite about? Shaw gets a pass from me, the chubby lovable fecker.

Speaks volume when the actual captain and ex-captain are not part of this whining group. Incidentally they have run their socks off and performed well in recent games too.
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Did you even read the tweet? Not all of those players are complaining.
 
TheReligion said:
It says they haven’t all complained by the way
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I get it. But they sure led the way and set the tone. If this is unanimous sentiment among the full squad, shouldn’t Bruno and even Maguire be part of the group as well?
Senior/leadership my arse, they’re just a bunch of whiners.

EDIT: That said, I think I should know better than taking everything posted on Twitter too seriously.
 
December_16 said:
I get it. But they sure led the way and set the tone. If this is unanimous sentiment among the full squad, shouldn’t Bruno and even Maguire be part of the group as well?
Senior/leadership my arse, they’re just a bunch of whiners.
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Who said that? You just seem to be jumping to conclusions and making yourself angry. Bizarre.
 
Cheimoon said:
Those first games clearly did not go well though. I don't think how things played out during the match (like a player's number of passes) could be seen as representative of what Ten Hag really wants. It also sounds like a stretch to me that Ten Hag would play someone because they are good in the air at defensive corners and wide free-kicks - but he did talk time and again about needing goals, and needing players that contribute to that. But yeah, as with any modern system, a lot of automatisms are required. If United do drop out of all European competitions, Ten Hag would have a lot more time on the training pitch to get those ingrained. (Although you'd think that's what pre-season would have been for.)

Do you have a link to that ten Hag interview on McTominay and players staying back btw?
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Our financially driven pre-season tours have been awful for us. Picking up injuries and not enough time honing down fitness and tactics. Part of the reason why we looked so sloppy and unfit at the beginning of both ETH seasons. In my opinion.
 
Judas said:
Who said that? You just seem to be jumping to conclusions and making yourself angry. Bizarre.
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Nah I’m not angry. I used up all my anger after watching them playing on the pitch already.

However, let’s do a tiny debate for the hell of it shall we? My point was, if the sentiment about not enough days off etc. was shared among the full squad, and that a group of senior players was to represent this view to ETH, shouldn’t Bruno be front and center? Since he wasn’t, I would just deduce that only a fraction of the squad shared the view, which most likely includes the lazy individuals named in the tweet. That is.
 
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