Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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I’m so fecking sick of these players. ETH might be underperforming but yet again this lot are going to see off another manager because he’s got the audacity to ask them to put a shift in. There needs to be a mass clear out of these bad apples in the summer, hopefully Ratcliffe and co can see this. It’s no use getting rid of one or two because the rot just sets in again before long with the ones that remain. A complete reset is required.
You say this but I don’t think he is asking them to put a shift in. They don’t press at all. That’s a choice.
 
His biggest feck up, by an absolute mile is abandoning his own principles and philosophy, which has led to the halfway house you refer to as well as a myriad of issues as direct result.

By his own hand, he has rendered his own signings mostly useless or ineffective as, contrary to his words, they aren't at all suited to the kind of football he is now attempting to play whilst these very same players you refer to, are.

He's trying to play blunt force, vertical football with the wrong pieces, which is why the backline sit deep and the attack sit way too far forward, leaving the absolute chasm in midfield he's now having a sole 18-year old with 2 PL games under his belt man. Alone.

Worst than having players he wanted out now forces into the team, he's made it harder for his own signings to function and integrate, which is absolutely shambolic.

He's abandoned his principles for a kind of football he doesn't know how to play.

I'm firmly in the give Ten Hag some time but Gary Neville and a lot of fan's points about Ange and De Zerbi getting their teams to play proactive progressive football is where my faith starts to stutter. As well as to your point, most of that newcastle team were diabolical before Howe got in charge, almost meme players and now they are playing some of the best football in the league. I would put the blame on Ten Hag but then I look back at the team under Rangnick, Ole, Jose and I see the same thing. The one constant is the players. Neville also made another good point which is LVG's team was the last team to have an actual stylistic blueprint a philosophy that you could see, however boring it was. The further we have moved on from players that were connected to Sir Alex the further in this malaise we have gone.

At the end of the day we can point fingers to Ten Hag but when your star player is a player like Rashford, when your captain is incapable of knowing when to tacticaly play conservative then you will not win any of the major honours and you will be this champions league yo yo team that we are.
 
Would have some merit to it if they literally didn't down tools on every manager post SAF up to ETH.
It still has merit with all the niggling injuries our players outside of match we have, despite not exactly working hard on the pitch.
 
As expected, leaks are coming. Coincidentally, just after pundits openly started criticising a certain player.
 
I don’t think anyone wants to bin everyone, do they? Not really. But getting rid of the ones who have stunk for many managers, surely surely shouldn’t get another chance.
I think it’s time to sell / get rid of Rashford… yes, it’s at his lowest point, but I think we just need a clean break. You can’t count on him season to season and his mentality is a bit fragile. I respect him for all he’s done at the club, but it’s best for all if he moves on. The difference between in form Rashford and out of form Rashford is probably the largest gap of any player in Prem, maybe in the top 5 leagues.

I do believe many of our players have mentality issues. Only Lisandro seems to have the “Roy Keane / Eric Cantona Mentality” that we need to challenge for trophies.

Others I would absolutely sell, even at a discount:
Lindelof
McTominay
Maguire
Wan Bissaka
Van De Beek
Martial
Evans (he’ll likely retire I’d think)

Those I’m on the fence about:
Dalot
Bruno

Leftovers:
Shaw
Martinez
Onana
Varane
Casemiro
Eriksen
Mainoo
Hannibal
Malacia
Mount
Garnacho
Hojlund
Pellistri
Amad
Greenwood
Antony (probably need to sell him later, I don’t think he’ll come good)
‘Sancho (I want to see him under a good manager)

That’s 8 first team regulars that you need to replace, or 10 if you include Dalot and Bruno: 3 CBs, a LW or winger, 2 attacking MF, 2 RBs, one striker and a box to box MF.

That’s 400m - 500m in players. If we sold Bruno and Rashford, plus all the others, maybe 200-250m in player sales. Net spend of 200m-300m, roughly.

it will take 2-3 windows to turn the team over.
 
Was good enough for Reals CL wins and a WC but we need him to be able to play raking through balls to get into the team. That’s how you know the system is fecked.
How about playing a simple pass? He‘s not starting because he was atrocious.
 
Would have some merit to it if they literally didn't down tools on every manager post SAF up to ETH.
Did they? We were still pulling off comeback wins at the very end of LVG, Mourinho, and Ole's tenures. There's no real evidence the players ever "downed tools" for any of them. More likely explanation is the squad and the managers just weren't good enough, which I also believe is the case now.
 
People need to stop falling back on cliches and look at things objectively. He’s a poor manager. Zero man management skills and zero tactical ability. That’s obvious just from observing things.

Does that save the players blame? No, they’re terrible. Building a team around Rashford and Bruno is the worst thing you could ever do, they’re not elite players.
 
You say this but I don’t think he is asking them to put a shift in. They don’t press at all. That’s a choice.

Nah, I’m not buying that. ETH teams have always pressed, you could see us doing it last season. I’m sure there was also a stat at the start of the season which had us top for ball recoveries in the oppositions final third so we did press at one stage. This just looks like a classic case of the players beginning to down tools and ignoring the manager’s instructions. I mean there’s no way ETH is telling the players to go out and serve up the garbage they do on a weekly basis. Now I’m not saying the manager is blameless because he’s clearly got a lot wrong this season but a lot of this squad have previous for doing the exact same thing under different managers and I’m sick of it.
 

"My sources tell me the players aren't happy with where the club is heading"
"one source told me the training is too intense"
"a source says the squad feel Sancho's punishment is too harsh"
"a source says ETH has favourites and others don't get a chance"

Not reading it but I bet these all feature
 
People need to stop falling back on cliches and look at things objectively. He’s a poor manager. Zero man management skills and zero tactical ability. That’s obvious just from observing things.

Does that save the players blame? No, they’re terrible. Building a team around Rashford and Bruno is the worst thing you could ever do, they’re not elite players.
This. Based on his man management decisions and transfers, I get the impression he's a very stubborn, inflexible, "my way or the highway" type who doesn't listen to other people's ideas. Not to absolve the players, but if he's lost the dressing room, it's because he's dug that hole for himself.
 
He will be sacked if he keeps persisting with this one DM and two CAMs thing. Just stupid, much like the Mount signing. We get opened up every time we lose the ball which is a fecking lot when you start Rashford, Scott and Dalot.
It‘s naive to think that what we saw on Saturday is how Ten Hag wants to play. Clearly he wants the team to be more compact, they are not doing it though.

Ten Hag is not airing the dirty laundry in press conferences, he still hasn‘t given up belief he can turn it around.
 
Nah, I’m not buying that. ETH teams have always pressed, you could see us doing it last season. I’m sure there was also a stat at the start of the season which had us top for ball recoveries in the oppositions final third so we did press at one stage. This just looks like a classic case of the players beginning to down tools and ignoring the manager’s instructions. I mean there’s no way ETH is telling the players to go out and serve up the garbage they do on a weekly basis. Now I’m not saying the manager is blameless because he’s clearly got a lot wrong this season but a lot of this squad have previous for doing the exact same thing under different managers and I’m sick of it.
Ultimately the manager is responsible for a teams awful performance and it’s his job to set them up to succeed. The tactical set up and personnel decisions he makes are awful. He’s out of his depth and he’s just winging it at this point.

If you buy Onana, which was completely his choice, you commit to playing out properly. End of story. No matter how many mistakes are made. That’s what brave coaches do. He doesn’t have a leg to stand on when you see Spurs this season or Brighton last season.
 
People need to stop falling back on cliches and look at things objectively. He’s a poor manager. Zero man management skills and zero tactical ability. That’s obvious just from observing things.

Does that save the players blame? No, they’re terrible. Building a team around Rashford and Bruno is the worst thing you could ever do, they’re not elite players.
This is crap and you know it. There is no way he would have been successful at Ajax or had players following him if your statement was true.
Bruno and Rashford were world class not too long ago last season, what are you talking about.... The main problem lies somewhere else
 
There’s nothing wrong with those statements, not sure why you all expect the players to just shut up and take whatever shit some dickhead manager decides to throw at them like they’re slaves.

Because these statement should be taken as absolute gospel? After everything that has happened under previous managers? Were all the previous managers dickheads as well were they?
 
I actually give up at this point.

Can only see this going one way now these kind of stupid reports are coming out.

Sickening because under Moyes/LvG/Mourinho and Ole when time was up it was almost a relief because you knew something better (in theory) was coming. This time though, who is actually available to take over if Ten Hag goes? Some poor soul that in 2 or 3 years time will have to deal with the same shit no doubt.
 
This is crap and you know it. There is no way he would have been successful at Ajax or had players following him if your statement was true.
Bruno and Rashford were world class not too long ago last season, what are you talking about.... The main problem lies somewhere else
With all due respect, Ajax is Ajax and this is the PL. It’s a completely different level. He also had no input in the building of the team, which he shouldn’t have had here either. They are not world class players it’s very simple.
 
Because these statement should be taken as absolute gospel? After everything that has happened under previous managers? Were all the previous managers dickheads as well were they?
The previous managers had different players so ask them what they did to piss pff those players.

From all reliable accounts, there are no toxic players within the club, there were apparently but they’ve all been shown the door since Ten Hag came in.
 
This is crap and you know it. There is no way he would have been successful at Ajax or had players following him if your statement was true.
Bruno and Rashford were world class not too long ago last season, what are you talking about.... The main problem lies somewhere else
Ajax, particularly under VDS and Overmars, were even better run than Brighton. I've seen lots of people credit the structure for De Zerbi's success, which may well be true, but why isn't the same being considered for ETH? He had some pretty amazing players too, like FDJ and De Ligt. Instead, the Ajax period is THE evidence for him being an elite manager for some.
 
After years of putting up with the bad attitudes of our players, I would back ETH over them even if he got us relegated.

We have had a squad full of unlikeable individuals for a very long time.
 
There’s nothing wrong with those statements, not sure why you all expect the players to just shut up and take whatever shit some dickhead manager decides to throw at them like they’re slaves.
You've properly lost it mate.
 
Opinions obviously, but for me the answer to points 1) and 2) is an emphatic yes.

1) Putting the horrendous entertainment value of our football aside; we are 7th in the league table with a negative GD, we are at the precipice of being eliminated in the UCL group stage in a group with Galata and Copenhagen, we are out of the League Cup in a 0-3 trouncing by Newcastle. This is pretty horrific. There are clear signs of regression in both the quality football and results, from this point last year. Nothing is working well on the football pitch. Ole was in the same place when he got sacked.

2) You can argue that it won't, but when Mou got sacked we got a new manager bounce with Ole and when Ole got sacked we got one with Carrick. There's clear evidence that it can work in the short term. I would argue there's little evidence that persisting with ETH will lead to a turn-around and there's more risk in fans and players becoming apathetic, if this is allowed to fester by the board.

And I certainly won't say you're wrong at all. I think I'm just done with the idea of caretaker managers coming in, even if we do get a dozen games of improvement. The danger there is they then give the job to the caretaker and then it nosedives like it did with Ole. This also gives the players a pass... players who have failed under multiple managers
 
No Antony, Sancho, Martial, Amrabat or McTomminay?
Antony missed a chunk of games and had a huge amount of issues off field so I'm not including him (not that he was been great), I don't think Sancho has played has he?

Those other three have been poor but they weren't really starters - my expectations of them were already quite set apart from Amrabat who was a cheap loan and is a squad player, Varane was 1st choice CB and his decline is genuinely shocking. He's only behind Rashford and about level with Case for me.
 
What exactly do you guys want? Whenever we’ve replaced a player we’ve ended up with a worse player, but instead of blame Ten Hag for his recruitment you’d rather just go after our best players and make claims based on your feelings about them not caring or not trying. You won’t be happy until we’ve sold all our best players and we’re starting players that just do a lot of running.
 
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