They were top after seven games so doubtful. The collapse happened in the middle of the season, a little bit after they'd already been spanked 7-2 by Villa.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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They were top after seven games so doubtful. The collapse happened in the middle of the season, a little bit after they'd already been spanked 7-2 by Villa.
Yeah, but I don't accept the premise that Liverpool only got those bad results because of an injury to van Dijk.
And therein lies the problem, Maguire, McTomminay, whoever wasn’t in the first 11 last season that he picked 3 times a week, they’ve not been part of any real coaching or games because he just wanted them replaced by better players. Now he’s paying for that with players that he has to play that don’t know the system well enough to be effective in it. If he’s lucky they’ll carry him through but it’s really hard to see how these players will dig him out when he’s not give a shit about them since he arrived.
McTominay is amongst our top scorers and Mount is on the bench. Maguire has also performed quite well. Mount and Antony were signed to be part of the new United but have been poor. Of our squad I would only single out Shaw, Rashford, Bruno, Garnacho, Höjlund, Mainoo as players to build around, maybe Onana, Amad and Martinez also. Still many of these players are still young or underperforming. We are not in transition, we are in free fall. Varane and Casemiro do not need coaching but replacing much sooner than we thought and can afford.
It's a fine line for sure. Sometimes employees need to be moved on once you've realized that they're never going to be good enough and no amount of training/coaching will make the difference.
If Maguire and McT had moved on in the summer, which it seemed both were close to doing, we could have brought in more suitable players and we might be in a totally different place right now.
So why did they drop off a cliff then?
The dropping off a cliff thing is the important point here, not strictly the reason why.
The reason United have been shite this season has primarily been injuries to key players, with some bad luck and numerous off-field distractions not helping matters.
You can't refute the point that teams struggle when key players are missing and say that what's happened at United is dropping off a cliff, not struggling, then when presented with evidence of another team dropping off a cliff with an injury to a key player, go "well it wasn't because of the injury", because at this point you aren't even saying anything.
What point are you trying to get across?
I’d say they may not be good enough to win the league but they’re definitely good enough to be there or there about while the club adds better players. As they’ve shown in the past by finishing second and getting to Europa final.
at the moment nothing is clicking but they can one hundred percent play better than what we’re seeing imo
This season? We haven't been playing well since the carabao cup. During our winning run last year, we had a solid and consistent defence, and relied heavily on Bruno and Rashy moments. It was never sustainable.
You are right though about injuries to key players, particularly in defence. Add to that a dodgy new keeper and it was always going to unravel.
Definitely, but does the manager have the required eye for spotting players that will be successful in the PL or that can deliver his instructions at this level? It doesn’t seem so.
An obvious reason why Liverpool might have dropped off a cliff is because they had two consecutive seasons with massive point tallies in the league, and finally won the domestic title after decades. It is understandable that after such an effort, they might drop off. Manchester City also had two consecutive seasons with massive point tallies, followed by a drop-off.
Liverpool conceded 9 more goals that season than in the previous one. But they also scored 17 less goals. You can trust a system all you want but I don't think a missing center back is responsible for 17 less goals scored. That responsibility lies elsewhere: in the attack.
You are also understating the issues they had. During that bad run of form they had no regular Liverpool center backs available. They were playing Henderson, Fabinho, Nat Phillips, and Ozan Kabak on loan. That is a bigger deal than missing van Dijk.
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I don't think he does either. Hopefully when Ratcliff comes in he takes away ETH's influence on transfers. He should never have been given that influence in the first place.
Who said that? Because the only players that don't seem motivated so far to me look like Sancho and Rashford. But these 2 seem to be drunk on player power kool aid if you ask me and them being mates isn't helping either.
Maguire despite being dropped is performing decently with no attitude issues. All the other players seem to put in shifts even when it doesn't come off. So this idea that he lost the dressing room is wide of the mark. Every time I hear a post match interview with any of the players, all of them seem to emphasize that they are fully behind ETH. Mind you, a good portion of these players basically went on strike to get rid of Mourinho and Ole. And we all remember the famous "leaks" from the dressing room or them completely undermining Ragnick.
You wot mate? ETH literally took Barca to the cleaners last time we played against them. He literally turned them to Stoke(Barca resorting to set pieces to score against us). A feat not even Fergie could pull off. Every time we face a Spanish side in the CL I already knew that a draw would be a good result. And Ițm not even talking Real or Barca here: Deportivo, Villareal, Athletico Bilbao, etc
ETH not only nullified Barca home and away, but made them look ordinary. Something I've never seen SAF do even in his prime.(disclaimer: not saying ETH is better thant SAF in any way)He had Sevilla on the ropes until chuckle brothers(DDG and Maguire) decided to give them the tie.
This idea that he can't compete with the world's elite is just bogus. Even in the league he beat Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Spurs all at home. It's the away form that needs a bit of working on and with that I will agree with you.
So they were tired from their previous seasons, but that didn't kick in until 15 games in, and despite not having a break, the tiredness went away before the end of the season as they salvaged top four with a run of good results? The tiredness also coincidentally only affected their form at a time when injuries saw Klopp fielding a make-shift defence?
United have had a summer clouded by the Greenwood situation and the club sale, drawn out transfer negotiations that saw clearly unwanted players remain at the club and incoming transfers delayed until after the season has already begun, and even further off-field issues with more than one individual. This is before you get to the injury crisis.
Again, what point are you making?
He didn't make Barca look ordinary, Barca is simply an ordinary team these days and far behind the teams SAF had to face.
Not really. You are understating how one dimensional we are when it comes to build up from the back, hence why the whole set up looks so disjointed.
ETH uses a ball playing CB to bypass the press and initiate the first phase of the attack. When Martinez is not available, he plays the next best player there i.e. a LB by the name of Luke Shaw(who also happens to be injured).
The problem with the current set up is that we are too reliant on only one of our CBs to do this. Our other CBs in Lindelof, Varane, Evans and Maguire are rather ordinary in this regard. Maguire can do that from time to time, but he is rather incosistent.
Hence why ETH tried to address this by signing either Todibo or Kim Min Jae, until the Glazer leeches told him: No new CBs until Maguire is sold. And the rest is history as they say.
We are also handicaped by either Dalot or AWB who can't offer support on the right in this regard. This is why ETH tried signing Frimpong, but again a couple of good performances and Dalot gets a new contract. Typical Glazer owned United stuff. (I'm glad that you guys at Real are run by a proper footballing man in Florentino and don't have to deal with lunacy like this)
That's why he tried signing Frenkie De Jong, because he can drop back and offer that second build up nucleus that our other CBs and RBs can't do. Sadly though, Frenkie decide that his hear is in Barca. This is also the reason we signed Amrabat, but so far bar a Crystal Palace game he hasn't show this yet.
SAF struggled even against ordinary Spanish team, let alone good ones. I don't understand why this is such a controversial topic.
Even during our double winning season, we literally had to park the bus for 180 minutes and hit them on the counter. Something I imagine if ETH attempted to do, he would be absolutely slaughtered on here for playing Ole ball and being too negative.
This is a poor argument.
While I myself excused injury crisis and inconsistency in performance thus bad result due to fatigue from last season; there is no excuse from not having an identity after over a season in charge. I also excuse him for the money spent, the profile of player (the amount because lack of support/alternative provided from the recruitment team), but not the playing style when he has enough material to work with.
After 2 summer windows signings players ETH picked to better adapt to his vision/system, we're so far from what you would expect . That's on ETH. The worst Klopp Liverpool still played like Klopp's Liverpool, but making mistake. Not that suddenly Klopp's Liverpool would play like Mourinho team. That 7-0 and late surge in form at the end last season was not some outliner even in a poorer season. Whereas under ETH we rarely have win with big scoreline, and the way we play for majority of ETH tenure can be mistaken for the worse kind of Oleball. There is a difference between expectation of result/achievement and expectation of performance/playing style. After 2 summer windows, familiar players ETH picked to better adapt to his vision/system, we're so far from what you would expect from the time given. That's on ETH.
Fred signed in summer leading to the season where Mourinho sacked. So no. He only won his only trophy under ETH.
In both cases, it has a lot of wrong with ETH. Martinez has a serious injury and anyone would be wary it would take him time to fully recovery and hit top form. Guess what happened? Rushed him back, and prioritized signings in less urgent position. Whereas Kim Min Jae was not expensive and very obtainable, that would solve both short term and long term need (replacing injury prone aging Varane).
If one CB is this influential for the playing style, even after another summer window, where strengthening CB positions was ignored, there is simply no excuse. It's just bad squad building practice.
Edit: Ironically enough, in twitter thread, it seems like we're looking for a new CB in winter window, where it's more difficult to get a high profile signing (very few clubs would want to let go of very good players and derail their season without a proper replacement), let alone expect one to hit the ground running with the new team. Recipe for overpaying again.
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We can't win, can we? Barca kicked the shit out of us in 94/95, 4-0. They finished 4th in La Liga, knocked out in the 1/4 finals of Champions League but whatever.
Did we bypass Wolves and Spurs' press when Martinez was available?
? You must be a WUM.
The Barca 2008 team had world class players in almost every position. Individually that team was even better than our 2008 team. So it was tactically absolutely crucial to not play open or naive. It was a CL semi final after all.
Whereas ETH “played Oleball” against the mighty aka average Newcastle in the league cup final. And this is not an exaggeration. He really let bloody Newcastle have most of the ball.
Not just Kim, Tobido, Pavard, Badiashile and Disasi were all available only for us to go hammer and tongs for Mount, it's beyond bad squad building practice.
Mount should have been a luxury buy if available after all the other glaringly obvious positions were filled i.e RB, CM, CDM, CB, ST, RW
CM is one of the top priority. Below CF, but above CB in a sense that if you're only allowed two signings, you would sign a CF and a CM. GK is the lowest priority among these, yet we made an expensive signing in Onana just because ??? The main issue is identifying the wrong player in Mount for this CM signing. Why we're playing badly has much to do with decline of Casemiro, Eriksen, losing Fred's abnormal pressing game. We're now back to bypass our own midfield, by playing long, or passing out to the wings, instead using central midfield to conduct play.
Which Spanish ordinary teams we struggled? Valencia (?) in the early part of 2000s where they made 2 CL finals, won an UEFA Cup, 2 La Liga titles? Deportivo La Coruna (?) who also got a La Liga title in beginning of 2000, Deportivo La Corunna. A regular in CL during this period. Reached CL semi final in season where Mourino's Porto won it. Also had a crazy comeback against one if not the top CL consistent performer during this period in AC Milan. Villarreal (?) won two Intertoto Cup during early 2000s, and also reached semi final. They maybe a inexperienced team in CL with only 3 participations. Their entire history, but the earliest they ever got eliminated in CL was quarter final round. Reached semi final 2 other times. Or the best version of Athletic Bilbao of the last 3 decades, who reached two finals in the same season that they convincingly outplayed us?
Barcelona, Real Madrid in those time were on different level to the current Barcelona.
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I agree to all of the bolded, CM is a priority and it should've been a player in the mould of a younger Eriksen/DLP that wouldn't go AWOL and sit up front to leave a 30 year Casemiro as a 1 man midfield, but that's most likely down to tactics also.
Fred was not the priority to shift unless we had a replacement in the same ilk or an upgrade on Eriksen, neither of which Amrabat seems to be.
And like you've stated this new direct approach has us basically bypassing our midfield only for us to lose the ball up field and the opposition to stroll right through the nonexistent midfield because we've chosen to play 2x 8s that are playing like 2x 10s.
What's crazy is City upgraded with players that would've been a perfect fit for us, Kovavic, Gvardiol and Nunes, that alone should show how far we are behind with our poor recruitment Vs the "noisy" neighbours.
That Barcelona was the begging of the end of the late Cryuff's Barcelona "Dream Team" that got into CL by winning La Liga the previous season (you didn't get to play in CL back then without being the champions of major compeitions), the same season they were CL finalist losing to Milan! An upset season or an ordinary team? La Liga and PL of that era, which league was the stronger league?
Clearly a WUM. Just because we beat Barca that one time in the best competition in the world called Europa League. Says more about the level of both teams that year.
Exactly. If ETH goes CL final, 97 points and CL title, 98 points and league title, I'll give the entire squad a year off.
Just don't agree with the last bit. They had some young defenders they could've played. Instead Klopp stubbornly kept playing Fabinho and Henderson at the back, creating very subpar play in midfield also.
He recently said himself in an interview that the players aren’t technically capable of playing the Ajax way.
The Utd way is fast, attacking football with wingers who will go past their man and put in a cross for the central striker. Not the goalkeeper passing the ball to a central defender, who walks a few yards then passes it to the other central defender, who walks a few yards then passes it back to him, then he passes it back to the goalkeeper. But this is the only football Ten Hag knows.
So Glazers In, Ten Hag Out then? Stick that on a bedsheet banner.
You don't really need to stick this on your bedsheet or anywhere else. It is the reality. Glazers are the owners and they are not leaving any time soon. ETH is not a top manager, and he will be sacked by next summer. He will be sacked not because we have the Glazers as owners, he will be sacked because he is not a world-class manager. And we need a world class manager, it doesn't matter who the owners are, we need a world class manager to win this league. ETH is not good enough.
Believe it or not you are part of a very small percentage of the fan base that would want ten hag out.
Who are these world class managers that can work through the Glazer bullshit?
Guardiola and Klopp would certainly struggle with the restrictions Ten Hag has faced. Who else is there?
I still find it amazing that authours (most recently in the Guardian) write things in the same article like:
1. United, who last season had the most clean sheets in the premier league, have now conceded a staggering amount of goals;
2. ETH has not been able to field the back 4 that he built upon last season, and now has a new keeper to integrate, and Casemiro either missing or unfit
Like wow, this is a strange coincidence, I can't quite work it out.
Maguire/Evans/Lindelof/Dalot are not top half of the league defenders. With exception of Evans - who is ancient - never have been, never will be. Combine that with literally not having a defensive midfielder in the squad, and what can ETH but try to flow forward and hope for the best?
Eriksen, McTominay and Bruno cannot defend.
The only mystery for me is why Amrabat isn't the first name on the teamsheet, even if he's not perfect. He at least knows how to play the position.
We have no central midfield and our entire back 4 is out. That's 100% squad building failures, but that's been going on long before ETH.
1. United, who last season had the most clean sheets in the premier league, have now conceded a staggering amount of goals;
2. ETH has not been able to field the back 4 that he built upon last season, and now has a new keeper to integrate, and Casemiro either missing or unfit
Like wow, this is a strange coincidence, I can't quite work it out.
Maguire/Evans/Lindelof/Dalot are not top half of the league defenders. With exception of Evans - who is ancient - never have been, never will be. Combine that with literally not having a defensive midfielder in the squad, and what can ETH but try to flow forward and hope for the best?
Eriksen, McTominay and Bruno cannot defend.
The only mystery for me is why Amrabat isn't the first name on the teamsheet, even if he's not perfect. He at least knows how to play the position.
We have no central midfield and our entire back 4 is out. That's 100% squad building failures, but that's been going on long before ETH.
By the looks of it, the comparisons to Klopp are starting to become a mainstay in Caf's own Boom And Bust Cycle.
The Glazers don't even get involved in the football business. What is this bullshit and the restrictions poor old Erik has had to contend with?
From where I'm sitting he's been backed more than most managers would be. He pushed for a dud like Antony and we forked out £80m for him. He was desperate to sign Mount, so we handed over £55m. We spent months chasing the pipe dream of De Jong, to our detriment.
So again, what exactly has Ten Hag had to contend with as a result of Glazer interference, that has caused him to mismanage the squad and lead us to our worst start to a season in decades?
Nobody is winning the league with this squad.
ETH might not be the guy, but to say we need a world class manager to win the league would suggest that this squad is capable of it. It just isn't. Doesn't matter who comes in unless they are given the time and resources to dismantle this shit piece of a squad and build a new one, with players who are capable. Utd won't be winning any league titles any time soon.
They weren't good enough to be there or there abouts 3 years ago. They aren't any closer to that now.
Have I mentioned interference?
He shouldn't have been in a position where is transfer recommendations held such weight. He's not a scout or director of football. It shouldn't be his job to identify players.
As always, people with no clue how a top club should be structured point at transfer fees as if the manager is the one negotiating transfers and handling the budget, and managers getting their own players as if that's not an obvious sign of a broken or non-existent recruitment structure.
As an example, Ten Hag quite clearly wanted a new centre back, but was told he couldn't have one unless Maguire left. The club then dragged out negotiations for the sales of Maguire and McTominay, chasing unrealistic fees, until the deals collapsed and we ended up keeping them and bringing in an aging Evans on a free. One of the main reasons we struggled to sell Maguire was because of his inflated wages, something Ten Hag had no say in. This is a huge restriction and entirely the fault of the Glazers.
Add in the budget restrictions to meet FFP, because of their mismanagement, that saw us scrabbling around sorting a loan for Amrabat too.
It is the Glazers' fault that Woodward was hired and kept in post for so long, and it is their fault that his replacement was his mate, Arnold. It is their fault we've been stuck with the likes of Martial, Lingard, Bailly, McTominay and Pereira, long past their usefulness.
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