Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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MancunianAngels said:
If we're all of the opinion that the biggest issue at United at the Glazers then what's the point in sacking Ten Hag now?
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It's been a year since the club was maybe being sold and we're still waiting to find out exactly what the changes the minority stake being sold will bring. There's a reasonable chance that nothing noticeable will change.

I don't think we should sack him now, but it may get to a point where something has to change. We can't force the Glazers to sell. We can't force them to actually create a proper structure to support the manager and hire appropriate people within it. It isn't remotely practical to sell half the squad and buy half a new one. That leaves replacing the manager, even if it is for (the hope of) a short-term bounce.

Will we be back here in 18 months? Almost certainly. Can we just stick with Ten Hag if the players have completely lost faith and results and performances are getting progressively worse? Obviously not.
 
Alex99 said:
It's been a year since the club was maybe being sold and we're still waiting to find out exactly what the changes the minority stake being sold will bring. There's a reasonable chance that nothing noticeable will change.

I don't think we should sack him now, but it may get to a point where something has to change. We can't force the Glazers to sell. We can't force them to actually create a proper structure to support the manager and hire appropriate people within it. It isn't remotely practical to sell half the squad and buy half a new one. That leaves replacing the manager, even if it is for (the hope of) a short-term bounce.

Will we be back here in 18 months? Almost certainly. Can we just stick with Ten Hag if the players have completely lost faith and results and performances are getting progressively worse? Obviously not.
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But, if the issue is fundamentally the Glazers (as a lot of correctly people say on here) then whoever takes over as manager is ultimately doomed to fail. Until we change the ownership and/or football strategy then changing manager is essentially a sticky plaster.

Ten Hag deserves criticism, as do the players, but maybe they are all symptoms of the same disease.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
It’s not my job to have a list of managers lined up immediately. It’s the clubs. But either way you completely missed my point just to rage on about how there isn’t anyone that’s an obvious choice to replace him right now.

Deciding whether to sack a manager/sell a player isn’t a two step decision that always requires a replacement for it to be plausible. You don’t hold on to Antony or Scott McTominay just because Bukayo Saka or Camavinga aren’t immediately available to bring in. Likewise, you don’t avoid sacking Ten Hag just because Xabi Alonso or Zidane don’t want the job. And the way you are framing it implies that it’s impossible apparently to do proper due diligence and find someone that can do a better job unless it’s a clear and obvious name that every random Caf poster could come up with. This isn’t us talking about some club legend manager that’s fallen off a bit in his later years like Wenger. It’s a guy that’s (again) gone 18 months failing to string together a decent month of enjoyable football yet apparently is still the very best man for the job as if the standards of what he’s accomplished are through the ceiling already.

You seem to think that I’m some fanatic that wants to sack managers constantly when I was one of his biggest supporters last season and even before we hired him. But I simply don’t see the point in continuing with just blind hope in a guy just to delay the inevitable. Just wastes time and resources for everyone.
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It was obvious ETH wanted to offload Maguire and McT, the club couldn't facilitate that and he couldn't players in to replace them, because they wouldn't go. So bringing in players is dependent on getting rid of players.

Some of the football last season was decent, but it really started to fall off a cliff when Eriksen got injured and it got even worse again when Martinez got injured. 2 key players to how he wanted to play.

I'm not saying he's the best man for the job.
But all the off field stuff and injuries aee mitigating factors. I just can't see the point in going down the new manager route again, unless it's well thought out and there are drastic changes behind the scenes. So we don't end up in the same circular bullshit arguments again in 12 months.
 
Where I think it might go wrong and where ETH will lose my support because it will be utterly reckless because it was so predictable and easily preventable is if when Onana goes away to AFCON, if the second keeper is completely crap. Will show a basic lack of planning with so much time that I won’t be able to see how ETH can be the long term solution.
 
Thom Merrilin said:
OK, so he suggested some players to sign. Why did nobody above him in the football structure say no? It's not the managers job to identify or sign players.
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If you want to be the best version of Captain Hindsight, be my guest. The fact that he can't even make things tick with his own signings, players he worked with before speaks volumes.
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
If you want to be the best version of Captain Hindsight, be my guest. The fact that he can't even make things tick with his own signings, players he worked with before speaks volumes.
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I don't think I'm being captain hindsight, just pointing out that it shouldn't be and isn't the managers job to identify and sign players whether thats in the past present or future. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?

Also "his" signings have been largely injured this season.
 
Oranges038 said:
it really started to fall off a cliff when Eriksen got injured and it got even worse again when Martinez got injured. 2 key players to how he wanted to play.
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I think here we get into a philosophical discussion of what a system/style is and why you should have one.

I don't think a system should be so dependent on the specific qualities of the players, to the degree that it falls apart without them.

That sounds like the worst of both worlds, really: not tailored to the player's abilities but heavily dependent on them.
 
Thom Merrilin said:
I don't think I'm being captain hindsight, just pointing out that it shouldn't be and isn't the managers job to identify and sign players whether thats in the past present or future. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?

Also "his" signings have been largely injured this season.
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Okay, will wait for the injury excuse to die soon.
 
MancunianAngels said:
But, if the issue is fundamentally the Glazers (as a lot of correctly people say on here) then whoever takes over as manager is ultimately doomed to fail. Until we change the ownership and/or football strategy then changing manager is essentially a sticky plaster.

Ten Hag deserves criticism, as do the players, but maybe they are all symptoms of the same disease.
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As I said at the end of the post you've just quoted:

Can we just stick with Ten Hag if the players have completely lost faith and results and performances are getting progressively worse? Obviously not.

Like, I'm pro-Ten Hag at the moment. I think he's earned enough credit from last season to be given a bit more time, but we regardless of the bigger problems, we can't just ignore a manager that has lost the dressing room.
 
MancunianAngels said:
If we're all of the opinion that the biggest issue at United at the Glazers then what's the point in sacking Ten Hag now?
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No, we are not ("we're all of the opinion that the biggest issue at United at the Glazers"). No owners are perfect. Which past United owners were great? Magnier? The guy who went to the courts vs SAF for a horse? Was that a great owner?

But that's the owners SAF was successful under, Magnier and Glazers! How did this happen?

It is simple: a top manager will remain a top manager under the Glazers, too. Do you think that if we had Pep he would fail "because of the Glazers"?
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I think here we get into a philosophical discussion of what a system/style is and why you should have one.

I don't think a system should be so dependent on the specific qualities of the players, to the degree that it falls apart without them.

That sounds like the worst of both worlds, really: not tailored to the player's abilities but heavily dependent on them.
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Most teams have key players that they miss when injured, lots of clubs struggle when they have several first team players injured.

And do you not think that if he was able to, he would have gotten rid of more players and brought in more suitable ones? He depended on those players because the other guys weren't up to playing how he wanted to play. As soon as a couple of players got injured it started to go to pot. Sevilla game is just one example, Martinez left the field and it all fell to shit.

It was quite telling that as soon as he got Casemiro and Eriksen in midfield he didn't bother with Fred or McT too much. Fred only played more in the second half of the season because Eriksen was out. And McT was just used for subs appearances for the most part. You just half to look at starts and minutes played compared to the previous season to see that.

Largely due to injuries we're back to seeing Dalot, Maguire, Linfelof, McT etc etc.. in the starting xi and people expect it to be different than it has been the other couple of hundred times they've played.. the big reason it was somewhat different last year was because for the most part these players were benched.
 
frostbite said:
No, we are not ("we're all of the opinion that the biggest issue at United at the Glazers"). No owners are perfect. Which past United owners were great? Magnier? The guy who went to the courts vs SAF for a horse? Was that a great owner?

But that's the owners SAF was successful under, Magnier and Glazers! How did this happen?

It is simple: a top manager will remain a top manager under the Glazers, too. Do you think that if we had Pep he would fail "because of the Glazers"?
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Magnier wasn't the owner.

I think Pep would struggle at United. City spent years preparing for him and he still only managed to finish fourth on GD in his first season and third in his second (15 points off top and only three clear of fifth).

At United, he wouldn't have had anyone prepping for him and wouldn't have anything close to the transfer support City have given him to shape the squad.

Say he came in post LvG, what's he doing with the squad that finished the 15/16 season when he can only bring in three or four senior players in the summer?
 
I simply don’t believe Ten Hag is capable of building and organising a team to play ”the Utd way”. That much has become clear from the players he’s brought in and the formation he’s employed.
 
Is there anyone he hasn't fallen out with? It's all going very third season Jose
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Struggling is fine, especially with results; "falling off a cliff" isn't.
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Klopp's Liverpool once went over a month and a run of 10 games where their only victory was an FA Cup replay against Plymouth Argyle.

As champions, they went on a run that saw them win just three of 14 league games, losing 8, and dropping from first to eighth in the league. This was blamed entirely on injuries to key players (and almost solely on the absence of van Dijk).

Last season, they won four of the opening 12 league games, leaving them sat in ninth on 16 points. After 20 games they were tenth.

Now Ten Hag might not be the one for United, but it's simply not true that other clubs don't go through bad spells, especially when key players are out injured.
 
Oranges038 said:
Playing in empty stadiums under no pressure?
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Pretty sure Fred won a trophy under jose as well, point is that managers work with what they have, not just exact Ajax types.

He had his first choice back line for our season opener against Wolves.
 
Alex99 said:
Klopp's Liverpool once went over a month and a run of 10 games where their only victory was an FA Cup replay against Plymouth Argyle.

As champions, they went on a run that saw them win just three of 14 league games, losing 8, and dropping from first to eighth in the league. This was blamed entirely on injuries to key players (and almost solely on the absence of van Dijk).

Last season, they won four of the opening 12 league games, leaving them sat in ninth on 16 points. After 20 games they were tenth.

Now Ten Hag might not be the one for United, but it's simply not true that other clubs don't go through bad spells, especially when key players are out injured.
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You are arguing against a non-existent post. Nobody said other clubs don't go through bad spells.
 
Oranges038 said:
Well when you go from Eriksen and Martinez to Fred and Lindelof or Maguire. I don't know what else you could expect.
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The absence of Eriksen, let alone Martinez, should not mean that United are 12th on goals in the PL this season.

This goes back to my comment about the point of a system.

A system that is so interdependent that any missing part causes the whole thing to malfunction, is not a very good system.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Pretty sure Fred won a trophy under jose as well, point is that managers work with what they have, not just exact Ajax types.

He had his first choice back line for our season opener against Wolves.
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Yeah and one of them scored in a 1-0 win.

Jose played a different type of game, one that was more suited to the players he had.

ETH had a style at Ajax that required players to be competent on the ball. Then to instill that at Utd, it's obvious why he went for Martinez abd Eriksen, two key players in the build up phase. Its also obvious why he jettisoned AWB, Fred, McT and Maguire from his starting 11 quite quickly.

Key players are out injured and he's trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear with a bunch of players who weren't good enough 3 years ago, but yet, here they are stinking it up again under another manager.
 
Rednotdead said:
I simply don’t believe Ten Hag is capable of building and organising a team to play ”the Utd way”. That much has become clear from the players he’s brought in and the formation he’s employed.
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What even is the "Utd way"? I think most people hoped he would mould us into a side similar to his Ajax side. The first goal against Copenhagen was a good example of what he's trying to do.
 
These two claims are not the same thing:
  • United are not as good without Martinez because he is the best defender in the squad.
  • United are not as good without Martinez because their style of play requires Martinez's abilities and without him the style doesn't work.
The first one is common and uncontroversial. The second one is something entirely different.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The absence of Eriksen, let alone Martinez, should not mean that United are 12th on goals in the PL this season.

This goes back to my comment about the point of a system.

A system that is so interdependent that any missing part causes the whole thing to malfunction, is not a very good system.
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I think ETH is trying to implement a system that only a small number of the first team players have the intelligence to implement. That's why when one or two players get injured it all falls apart. It could be a great system if we had the correct profile of players.

There's definitely a discussion to be had on whether it's worth persisting with the system and evolve the side or revert to a more pragmatic style that more suits Rashford, Bruno, Varane, etc. I'd like to see us persist with becoming a modern footballing side.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The absence of Eriksen, let alone Martinez, should not mean that United are 12th on goals in the PL this season.

This goes back to my comment about the point of a system.

A system that is so interdependent that any missing part causes the whole thing to malfunction, is not a very good system.
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That's where you need time and assistance to get rid of the non functioning parts and replace them with parts that do function. So the whole thing runs faster and more smoothly after a period of fixing it it up. Martinez and Eriksen were key parts of the build up phase, that's totally gone now. What's out there on the pitch now just cannot do the job the same way.

It's not a mad concept, you want to put in a more progressive, fast paced, attacking style, based on transitions then you really need to get rid of players like Maguire, McT, Dalot, AWB, Varane, Lindelof etc etc and replace with them with technically proficient players who have the pace and athleticism to play the game at a high intensity whilst also being able to keep the ball, so you can match teams like City and Liverpool on theiir strengths.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
You are arguing against a non-existent post. Nobody said other clubs don't go through bad spells.
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You said clubs struggle but don't drop off a cliff when key players are injured.

You don't get much more cliff droppy than losing eight of 14, winning just three, and plummeting from first to eighth, as reigning champions, just because your best defender got injured.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
I must have missed the bit that it was only us playing in empty stadiums. Why wasn’t every other team in the league also 2nd
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This isn't 3 years ago, this is now and next year.

You think the bones of that team from 3 years ago that was 12 pts off the top, could get anwhere near City right now? Because that's what it seems like is being suggested.
 
Thom Merrilin said:
I think ETH is trying to implement a system that only a small number of the first team players have the intelligence to implement. That's why when one or two players get injured it all falls apart. It could be a great system if we had the correct profile of players.

There's definitely a discussion to be had on whether it's worth persisting with the system and evolve the side or revert to a more pragmatic style that more suits Rashford, Bruno, Varane, etc. I'd like to see us persist with becoming a modern footballing side.
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The problem is he arrived and immediately identified a bunch of players that he felt weren’t up to the standard of playing for United. We know who they are and for the most part we all agree with that assessment. Now the issue with management is, the people you don’t like and the people who aren’t up to the task are the people that need and require most of your time and attention. The best people don’t even need managing, you tell them what to do, they get it, they execute the plan. The poor ones need step by step coaching and support. This is where managers earn their keep, making the shit ones functional in some capacity. The reality is you will have to rely on these people at some point and if you’ve not bothered with them before that point they will get you sacked.
 
Oranges038 said:
This isn't 3 years ago, this is now and next year.

You think the bones of that team from 3 years ago that was 12 pts off the top, could get anwhere near City right now? Because that's what it seems like is being suggested.
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You were the one who questioned or made reasons for that second place as if we were the only team who played in empty stadiums. There’s no need to put down what happened in the past to defend what is happening now.
 
Alex99 said:
You said clubs struggle but don't drop off a cliff when key players are injured.

You don't get much more cliff droppy than losing eight of 14, winning just three, and plummeting from first to eighth, as reigning champions, just because your best defender got injured.
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Was it the worst start to a title defence ever?
 
Oranges038 said:
This isn't 3 years ago, this is now and next year.

You think the bones of that team from 3 years ago that was 12 pts off the top, could get anwhere near City right now? Because that's what it seems like is being suggested.
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No, just that they aren't fall off a cliff players
 
crossy1686 said:
The problem is he arrived and immediately identified a bunch of players that he felt weren’t up to the standard of playing for United. We know who they are and for the most part we all agree with that assessment. Now the issue with management is, the people you don’t like and the people who aren’t up to the task are the people that need and require most of your time and attention. The best people don’t even need managing, you tell them what to do, they get it, they execute the plan. The poor ones need step by step coaching and support. This is where managers earn their keep, making the shit ones functional in some capacity. The reality is you will have to rely on these people at some point and if you’ve not bothered with them before that point they will get you sacked.
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I see your point and it's a good one. I read or heard that ETH didn't try to coach Maguire and just wanted him gone, now he's starting every week. In a perfect world we'd have been run competently for the past 10 years and the entire squad would be aligned to a playing style. I don't see any other option than to start doing that now.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
You were the one who questioned or made reasons for that second place as if we were the only team who played in empty stadiums. There’s no need to put down what happened in the past to defend what is happening now.
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I questioned the drop off in quality from Eriksen a mnd Martinez to Fred and Maguire/Lindelof as a reason for the drop in performance towards the end of last season. It wasn't me that brought up 3 years ago, I always thought those players weren't good enough, did then and still do now.
 
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