Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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The signing of Antony just goes to highlight how bad our recent transfers have been.
Added to that, there are no functions within the club structure which are even remotely satisfactory.

And all the fans know that the club is a mess of epic proportions.
So it is hardly surprising that we are miles away from competitive.
 
That's not an answer to my question. It's such a diffuse concept, football structure, which makes it the perfect excuse because no-one outside of football (meaning all of us) actually knows what it means, so you can always claim that is the problem.

I was at the city game this weekend with my sons team on a coaching trip.

One of the city songs is about the glazers. Some of you think if a rival fan is singing about United keeping a certain manager it’s cause they know they are bad for the team. City fans are delighted the glazers are owners, even they understand it’s not just money or even a manager that wins things.

You have to have the best in class everywhere, that was even singled out on the city tour I did on why they are successful.

What are United doing, outside of manager and spending; that makes you think we have the best of the best for our managers to succeed?
 
It was pointed out very early on last summer by many of us that giving too much power to the manager for recruitment was idiotic, and we’re paying the price massively. The sooner we start running like the majority of modern football clubs the better. You’d think the Glazers would have been all over it, they’d have saved so much money.
 
If I have to explain what’s already been discussed ad nauseam there’s no point in explaining.

Let’s turn that around. PSG and City spent a fortune , yet only city attained their goals. What do you think separated them from success and failure? (It wasn’t soending) You see, some of you seem to think “well lots of money spent so what else could glazers do?”. Well they could hire the best people to run the club , that’s a start.

The amount of money United have wasted is obscene. There’s so many examples of players being kept simply to keep the squad value on a balance sheet up. That’s not ideal for a team supposedly wanting to be best in class.

There’s so many Examples of questionable things and previous managers saying that the club isn’t being run like successful clubs. But sure some of you can keep ignoring it and convincing yourself it’s all simply managers coming in and wrecking the place while the poor old owners can do nothing to change.
Your example of PSG and City is spot on.

The problem at PSG is they let the power of players became too big for any manager to handle. No top manager would touch them with a bargepole anytime soon.

Imo it's not the case with us. Yet. But our policy of not selling but instead rewarding huge contracts to shit/mediocre players just to keep their 'value' on the balance sheet surely doesn't help any manager. Why the feck you have to work hard and try your best if your job is basically safe regardless of how shit your performance is.
 
The most reliable news regarding the Antony deal either came from De Telegraaf via Mike Verweij or it came from the Brazilian outlets who were very reliable regarding the whole transfer saga all summer. And in particular Jorge Nicola, a Sao Paulo based journalist with a big following on social media who reported in June 2022 about United having two bids rejected early in the transfer window for Antony. The first offer was €45m (£38m) and a second offer of €55m (£47m) was also rejected with Ajax wanting €80m according to Jorge Nicola. United after the second rejected offer seemed to have decided that the deal wasn't making any sense and they walked away only to come back very late in the window to sign the player after the opening day defeats to Brighton and Brentford. And the blame here clearly falls on the ownership who created the problem in that particular transfer window when it came to overpaying for Antony and panicked and dipped into the revolving credit facility with just weeks left in the window. It's why I say that the Glazers are absolutely incompetent at running a football club.

The tweet below citing Jorge Nicola as the source mentions everything I've posted above pertaining the information from the journo.



At any club that is well run with a DoF model in place, the recruitment should be led by the Chief Scout/head of recruitment and not the DoF. John Murtough had fired the previous heads of recruitment on the eve of the summer transfer window in 2022 for under performance in their positions as the recruitment directors. So that transfer window in 2022, required ten Hag to take a more active approach when it came to recruitment whilst John Murtough was replacing the previous head scouts with Simon Wells and a Argentine national named Jose Mayorga. That particular window was always going to be somewhat tunnel visioned until the recruitment structure at the top of the chain was in place with at least a season of scouting and analytics under their belt. Because a DoF is ultimately going to be judged on the people he puts in place within the football departments at the club. I think we're now set as a club on the recruitment side and the next transfer window should see Mayorga, Wells, Jordan and Co have a bigger influence when it comes to signing players. If they don't then I'd be very concerned but that doesn't mean we should stop signing Dutch players or Dutch based players because the Dutch market should be tapped into. There's a right winger who is playing for PSV (Bakayoko) and he looks very explosive and if our scouts flag him up as a recommendation then we should sign him. He probably wouldn't cost a lot either.

Solskjaer said in a recent interview with Andy Mitten about there being a cap on three main signings every summer. If that is the case then it's important to sign the correct three players because even with such a cap, you can create a very strong team imo with a bit of patience. And believe it or not, I don't think we are as far away as many think and I'm now expecting the recruitment department to deliver whilst being supported by the data and video analytics guys. Man Utd have failed for a long time due to a lack of methodology and not a lack of data. If you don't know what you're applying the data towards then it's very difficult to create a well oiled machine. So if know how you want to play, then it's not difficult to sign good players imo. The data and analytics will then follow.

EtH inherited a team with no central focal point in attack, a mediocre midfield, mediocre to above average CBs and a GK who wouldn't get close to the starting 11 of any team that aspired to play a more expansive game. Results usually define how long a head coach stays in his role, but imo if he survives this season then he's in a great position to significantly improve the team because the CB and midfield areas are open for improvement. Mourinho and Solskjaer signed two CBs each (Bailly, Lindelof, Maguire and Varane) and eventhough Varane has been a excellent player in his career, it didn't make a lot of sense to sign him when there was up and coming CBs on the horizon at the time.


Excellent post…
 
You don't need to replace a 30-year-old midfielder within two seasons. I'm not sure why you'd think that. Fernandinho was playing at Manchester City until quite recently and he's 38 years old. Casemiro's midfield partners at Real Madrid are older than him and still playing (Modric is 38 and Kroos is 33).

Casemiro should be perfectly capable of playing at a top club for a few more years. Not as a 4000 minutes per season player, but 2500 or so.

Not In the Prem. He looked shattered towards the back end of last season and that was after he missed about 10 games through suspension. His legs look to be going he’s already dropped off a level since this time last season.
 
Let’s turn that around. PSG and City spent a fortune , yet only city attained their goals. What do you think separated them from success and failure? (It wasn’t soending) You see, some of you seem to think “well lots of money spent so what else could glazers do?”. Well they could hire the best people to run the club , that’s a start.

Sure. But one of those "best people" that City hired was the manager. In fact the manager is the most obvious "best person" they hired, as Guardiola is widely considered the best manager in the world.
 
Not In the Prem. He looked shattered towards the back end of last season and that was after he missed about 10 games through suspension. His legs look to be going he’s already dropped off a level since this time last season.

Right. The question is, who is to blame for this? Who is responsible for this problem?

I am being told it's the DoF who 'couldn't tell' or something, but I don't buy it.

There is a similar narrative with Varane. He was absolutely not an injury-prone player at Real Madrid. He moves to United and struggles with fitness. Yet some people act like the lack of proper DoF/structure means someone failed to stop that his legs were about to blow up.
 
Sure. But one of those "best people" that City hired was the manager. In fact the manager is the most obvious "best person" they hired, as Guardiola is widely considered the best manager in the world.

City were getting the club ready for pep before he even joined. That’s next level club planning. They did everything possible to help Pep achieve his goals.

Why do you think Pep chose city? Because they had money to spend or because he saw them as a wining project, unlike PSG that just threw money at their problems.

Pelligrini and Mancini won leagues with City. In fact Pep didn’t do any better in the CL with city in the same amount of years that Pelligrini got. Took pellegrini 3 years to get to a CL semi final , pep took 5. Maybe with two more years to build on his semi final pelligrini might of won it.

So this idea that city are only successful because of pep is nonsense.
 
Sure. But one of those "best people" that City hired was the manager. In fact the manager is the most obvious "best person" they hired, as Guardiola is widely considered the best manager in the world.
Nah the 'best person' they've hired imo is Txiki Begiristain. He is the one who oversee all the fundamental changes at City. Pep is just the cherry on top. After Pep they might not be as dominant as now but as long as they have a good coach they'll still be one of the best teams around imo. Of course only if they still have the oil money.
 
Right. The question is, who is to blame for this? Who is responsible for this problem?

I am being told it's the DoF who 'couldn't tell' or something, but I don't buy it.

There is a similar narrative with Varane. He was absolutely not an injury-prone player at Real Madrid. He moves to United and struggles with fitness. Yet some people act like the lack of proper DoF/structure means someone failed to stop that his legs were about to blow up.

I don’t know it’s been a mad year. There was games every few days last season because of the World Cup and the pace of the PL is a killer I think it’s absolutely killed Casemiro.

I really like Casemiro but it was a bad deal for us in the long term. We’re trying to do a rebuild and put a lot of resources into a player who’s 32 in Feb was a stupid move.

I mean Madrid have built one of the most exciting midfields in the last few windows - Bellingham, Camavinga and Tchouameni is there for possibly the next 10 years and we’ve pretty much funded one of those players.
 
So this idea that city are only successful because of pep is nonsense.

:D :D

Pep to City is what Ferguson is to United.

If a City fan says Ferguson is not the reason for United success, you don't take him seriously. So nobody will take you seriously. This is just a sour opposition fan.
 
The most reliable news regarding the Antony deal either came from De Telegraaf via Mike Verweij or it came from the Brazilian outlets who were very reliable regarding the whole transfer saga all summer. And in particular Jorge Nicola, a Sao Paulo based journalist with a big following on social media who reported in June 2022 about United having two bids rejected early in the transfer window for Antony. The first offer was €45m (£38m) and a second offer of €55m (£47m) was also rejected with Ajax wanting €80m according to Jorge Nicola. United after the second rejected offer seemed to have decided that the deal wasn't making any sense and they walked away only to come back very late in the window to sign the player after the opening day defeats to Brighton and Brentford. And the blame here clearly falls on the ownership who created the problem in that particular transfer window when it came to overpaying for Antony and panicked and dipped into the revolving credit facility with just weeks left in the window. It's why I say that the Glazers are absolutely incompetent at running a football club.

The tweet below citing Jorge Nicola as the source mentions everything I've posted above pertaining the information from the journo.



At any club that is well run with a DoF model in place, the recruitment should be led by the Chief Scout/head of recruitment and not the DoF. John Murtough had fired the previous heads of recruitment on the eve of the summer transfer window in 2022 for under performance in their positions as the recruitment directors. So that transfer window in 2022, required ten Hag to take a more active approach when it came to recruitment whilst John Murtough was replacing the previous head scouts with Simon Wells and a Argentine national named Jose Mayorga. That particular window was always going to be somewhat tunnel visioned until the recruitment structure at the top of the chain was in place with at least a season of scouting and analytics under their belt. Because a DoF is ultimately going to be judged on the people he puts in place within the football departments at the club. I think we're now set as a club on the recruitment side and the next transfer window should see Mayorga, Wells, Jordan and Co have a bigger influence when it comes to signing players. If they don't then I'd be very concerned but that doesn't mean we should stop signing Dutch players or Dutch based players because the Dutch market should be tapped into. There's a right winger who is playing for PSV (Bakayoko) and he looks very explosive and if our scouts flag him up as a recommendation then we should sign him. He probably wouldn't cost a lot either.

Solskjaer said in a recent interview with Andy Mitten about there being a cap on three main signings every summer. If that is the case then it's important to sign the correct three players because even with such a cap, you can create a very strong team imo with a bit of patience. And believe it or not, I don't think we are as far away as many think and I'm now expecting the recruitment department to deliver whilst being supported by the data and video analytics guys. Man Utd have failed for a long time due to a lack of methodology and not a lack of data. If you don't know what you're applying the data towards then it's very difficult to create a well oiled machine. So if know how you want to play, then it's not difficult to sign good players imo. The data and analytics will then follow.

EtH inherited a team with no central focal point in attack, a mediocre midfield, mediocre to above average CBs and a GK who wouldn't get close to the starting 11 of any team that aspired to play a more expansive game. Results usually define how long a head coach stays in his role, but imo if he survives this season then he's in a great position to significantly improve the team because the CB and midfield areas are open for improvement. Mourinho and Solskjaer signed two CBs each (Bailly, Lindelof, Maguire and Varane) and eventhough Varane has been a excellent player in his career, it didn't make a lot of sense to sign him when there was up and coming CBs on the horizon at the time.

Great post! Thanks @Adnan
 
The most reliable news regarding the Antony deal either came from De Telegraaf via Mike Verweij or it came from the Brazilian outlets who were very reliable regarding the whole transfer saga all summer. And in particular Jorge Nicola, a Sao Paulo based journalist with a big following on social media who reported in June 2022 about United having two bids rejected early in the transfer window for Antony. The first offer was €45m (£38m) and a second offer of €55m (£47m) was also rejected with Ajax wanting €80m according to Jorge Nicola. United after the second rejected offer seemed to have decided that the deal wasn't making any sense and they walked away only to come back very late in the window to sign the player after the opening day defeats to Brighton and Brentford. And the blame here clearly falls on the ownership who created the problem in that particular transfer window when it came to overpaying for Antony and panicked and dipped into the revolving credit facility with just weeks left in the window. It's why I say that the Glazers are absolutely incompetent at running a football club.

The tweet below citing Jorge Nicola as the source mentions everything I've posted above pertaining the information from the journo.



At any club that is well run with a DoF model in place, the recruitment should be led by the Chief Scout/head of recruitment and not the DoF. John Murtough had fired the previous heads of recruitment on the eve of the summer transfer window in 2022 for under performance in their positions as the recruitment directors. So that transfer window in 2022, required ten Hag to take a more active approach when it came to recruitment whilst John Murtough was replacing the previous head scouts with Simon Wells and a Argentine national named Jose Mayorga. That particular window was always going to be somewhat tunnel visioned until the recruitment structure at the top of the chain was in place with at least a season of scouting and analytics under their belt. Because a DoF is ultimately going to be judged on the people he puts in place within the football departments at the club. I think we're now set as a club on the recruitment side and the next transfer window should see Mayorga, Wells, Jordan and Co have a bigger influence when it comes to signing players. If they don't then I'd be very concerned but that doesn't mean we should stop signing Dutch players or Dutch based players because the Dutch market should be tapped into. There's a right winger who is playing for PSV (Bakayoko) and he looks very explosive and if our scouts flag him up as a recommendation then we should sign him. He probably wouldn't cost a lot either.

Solskjaer said in a recent interview with Andy Mitten about there being a cap on three main signings every summer. If that is the case then it's important to sign the correct three players because even with such a cap, you can create a very strong team imo with a bit of patience. And believe it or not, I don't think we are as far away as many think and I'm now expecting the recruitment department to deliver whilst being supported by the data and video analytics guys. Man Utd have failed for a long time due to a lack of methodology and not a lack of data. If you don't know what you're applying the data towards then it's very difficult to create a well oiled machine. So if know how you want to play, then it's not difficult to sign good players imo. The data and analytics will then follow.

EtH inherited a team with no central focal point in attack, a mediocre midfield, mediocre to above average CBs and a GK who wouldn't get close to the starting 11 of any team that aspired to play a more expansive game. Results usually define how long a head coach stays in his role, but imo if he survives this season then he's in a great position to significantly improve the team because the CB and midfield areas are open for improvement. Mourinho and Solskjaer signed two CBs each (Bailly, Lindelof, Maguire and Varane) and eventhough Varane has been a excellent player in his career, it didn't make a lot of sense to sign him when there was up and coming CBs on the horizon at the time.


I love you.
 
Nah the 'best person' they've hired imo is Txiki Begiristain. He is the one who oversee all the fundamental changes at City. Pep is just the cherry on top. After Pep they might not be as dominant as now but as long as they have a good coach they'll still be one of the best teams around imo. Of course only if they still have the oil money.

I think Begiristain would probably disagree that Guardiola is "just the cherry on top."

Guardiola is the guy who Begiristain pushed for when Barcelona were not in great shape.
 
My question was:



But also your understanding of Liverpools success is immensely flawed I suggest you read up on Michael Edwards and co https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/michael-edwards/profil/trainer/72294

Klopp himself has on numerous occssions in press conferences acknowledged the background staff that enabled him to win.

Saying it was all down to Klopp is categorically incorrect.
Michael Edwards wouldn’t be accepted here though, or at least the 2016 version. He was promoted from within the club after having a very different job just like Murtough.
ETH has been on record saying the signings are a joint decision with himself and the board, saying it’s all been down to ETH and he’s taken on too much responsibility isn’t factual.
 
I think Begiristain would probably disagree that Guardiola is "just the cherry on top."

Guardiola is the guy who Begiristain pushed for when Barcelona were not in great shape.
I don't understand the bold part.

And surely we all don't know what Begiristain would say on the matter but looking at how City were doing after they hired him and after they got Pep I'm pretty sure Pep is just the cherry on top. Of course Pep is good. But without the works Begiristain has done before & after Pep's arrival I don't think Pep could ever build a team as dominant as the current City all by himself. The guy failed to help Bayern reaching a single CL final in 3 years despite they just won the CL the season before he signed for them.

Without Pep City might haven't won their treble or been playing their current football. But without Pep they would still win the PL on a pretty regular basis imo. Even Mancini managed to win it with them. Where is he now? He's managing Saudi Arabia not any top NT or club.
 
I don't understand the bold part.

Barcelona didn't need a cherry on top of their ice cream when they signed Guardiola. They needed a whole scoop.

Without Pep City might haven't won their treble or been playing their current football. But without Pep they would still win the PL on a pretty regular basis imo.

Sure. But why does that make Guardiola "the cherry on top"? Begiristain left Barcelona in 2010. They continued winning league titles regularly for nine more years, long after the vast majority of the players he signed were gone. They even won two more Champions League titles and another treble. Does that make Begiristain "the cherry on top"?
 
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I don't think this is a discussion about who is important for what team since it's a Ten Hag thread so I'll just redirect it to the real point: everyone has a role.
 
Does that absolve ETH of what?

We aren’t setup to win. Our club is not a successful club because we aren’t the best in class at anything other then marketing.

Every manager we hire has a less chance of success then do at successful clubs because successful clubs have a football infrastructure that helps their managers succeed. If you don’t Create an environment for success while simultaneously demanding success, you can’t blame a manager for struggling in that environment.

ETH could do better if United was setup to win. It’s not. That’s clearly evident after 10 years of failure.

So what do you suggest that is required for a winning set-up?
 
The most reliable news regarding the Antony deal either came from De Telegraaf via Mike Verweij or it came from the Brazilian outlets who were very reliable regarding the whole transfer saga all summer. And in particular Jorge Nicola, a Sao Paulo based journalist with a big following on social media who reported in June 2022 about United having two bids rejected early in the transfer window for Antony. The first offer was €45m (£38m) and a second offer of €55m (£47m) was also rejected with Ajax wanting €80m according to Jorge Nicola. United after the second rejected offer seemed to have decided that the deal wasn't making any sense and they walked away only to come back very late in the window to sign the player after the opening day defeats to Brighton and Brentford. And the blame here clearly falls on the ownership who created the problem in that particular transfer window when it came to overpaying for Antony and panicked and dipped into the revolving credit facility with just weeks left in the window. It's why I say that the Glazers are absolutely incompetent at running a football club.

The tweet below citing Jorge Nicola as the source mentions everything I've posted above pertaining the information from the journo.



At any club that is well run with a DoF model in place, the recruitment should be led by the Chief Scout/head of recruitment and not the DoF. John Murtough had fired the previous heads of recruitment on the eve of the summer transfer window in 2022 for under performance in their positions as the recruitment directors. So that transfer window in 2022, required ten Hag to take a more active approach when it came to recruitment whilst John Murtough was replacing the previous head scouts with Simon Wells and a Argentine national named Jose Mayorga. That particular window was always going to be somewhat tunnel visioned until the recruitment structure at the top of the chain was in place with at least a season of scouting and analytics under their belt. Because a DoF is ultimately going to be judged on the people he puts in place within the football departments at the club. I think we're now set as a club on the recruitment side and the next transfer window should see Mayorga, Wells, Jordan and Co have a bigger influence when it comes to signing players. If they don't then I'd be very concerned but that doesn't mean we should stop signing Dutch players or Dutch based players because the Dutch market should be tapped into. There's a right winger who is playing for PSV (Bakayoko) and he looks very explosive and if our scouts flag him up as a recommendation then we should sign him. He probably wouldn't cost a lot either.

Solskjaer said in a recent interview with Andy Mitten about there being a cap on three main signings every summer. If that is the case then it's important to sign the correct three players because even with such a cap, you can create a very strong team imo with a bit of patience. And believe it or not, I don't think we are as far away as many think and I'm now expecting the recruitment department to deliver whilst being supported by the data and video analytics guys. Man Utd have failed for a long time due to a lack of methodology and not a lack of data. If you don't know what you're applying the data towards then it's very difficult to create a well oiled machine. So if know how you want to play, then it's not difficult to sign good players imo. The data and analytics will then follow.

EtH inherited a team with no central focal point in attack, a mediocre midfield, mediocre to above average CBs and a GK who wouldn't get close to the starting 11 of any team that aspired to play a more expansive game. Results usually define how long a head coach stays in his role, but imo if he survives this season then he's in a great position to significantly improve the team because the CB and midfield areas are open for improvement. Mourinho and Solskjaer signed two CBs each (Bailly, Lindelof, Maguire and Varane) and eventhough Varane has been a excellent player in his career, it didn't make a lot of sense to sign him when there was up and coming CBs on the horizon at the time.


Brilliant
 
It’s the first time I see this but it also renders all the talk about how he would be brilliant with a different setup above him a bit less valid.

If we have committed to give him control over transfers because he asked for this, then he has to shoulder more of the responsibility over our inability to improve the squad in the last 18 months in spite of £400m+ investment.

Even if we had failed to deliver his main targets, if we are talking about De Jong, Kane and Rice here then these targets were not realistic to begin with.
 
:D :D

Pep to City is what Ferguson is to United.

If a City fan says Ferguson is not the reason for United success, you don't take him seriously. So nobody will take you seriously. This is just a sour opposition fan.

No it’s not. United hadnt won the league in 26 years before Ferguson arrived. City won the league and goto CL semi final before pep joined. Chalk and cheese comparisons
 
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So what do you suggest that is required for a winning set-up?

Very very simple. We do what Roman and city owners did. You go around seeing what all the successful clubs are doing, implement the same footballing structures, poaching all the best people for all the important positions and only then do you hire a manager who can work within that system.

You don’t sign players simply for a manager, you sign them for the squad. Managers should have input and some veto options but in general a squad should be in a position where a replacement manager doesn’t require a complete overhaul.

For whatever reason, the glazers have been indifferent to getting more value out of the football team. Throwing money at it does not imply they want to or know how to fix what’s broken.

They are truly shocking owners because we had such a financial benefit over everybody and they’ve blown it badly.
 
Very very simple. We do what Roman and city owners did. You go around seeing what all the successful clubs are doing, implement the same footballing structures, poaching all the best people for all the important positions and only then do you hire a manager who can work within that system.

You don’t sign players simply for a manager, you sign them for the squad. Managers should have input and some veto options but in general a squad should be in a position where a replacement manager doesn’t require a complete overhaul.

For whatever reason, the glazers have been indifferent to getting more value out of the football team. Throwing money at it does not imply they want to or know how to fix what’s broken.

They are truly shocking owners because we had such a financial benefit over everybody and they’ve blown it badly.
Chelsea got a transfer ban under Roman and are in some serious shit with dodgy transfers that have just been reported while City are City.
 
That’s the ridiculously simple sentiment, that Klopp and Pep are the reasons those clubs are succeessful, as if moving them to our club would equal the same results.

I don't think Klopp and Pep at United would equal the results they've gotten at Liverpool and City.

But I'm pretty sure they'd do better than any of United's recent managers.
 
Chelsea got a transfer ban under Roman and are in some serious shit with dodgy transfers that have just been reported while City are City.

United have clean money and don’t need to cheat. But it’s not managers or spending alone that won them trophies. It’s how the clubs were primed for success. It’s no coincidence that the best clubs in the world are ones who prioritise winning trophies. We don’t prioritise that cause on field performances don’t affect our owners profits, we know this cause they said it themselves.

Point stands, they still setup the right systems that worked for them. Both didn’t require world class managers to win trophies and both didn’t really miss out much when changing managers.
 
I don't think Klopp and Pep at United would equal the results they've gotten at Liverpool and City.

But I'm pretty sure they'd do better than any of United's recent managers.

so you want a better manager who would still fail because of our failed structure but at least he would be doing better then now?

Not good enough for me. I’d rather things are fixed in the backround and then if we need a new manager we can get one in who will have the best chance possible
 
The club is at fault for spending 70m quid and 350k a week on a player we’d need replacing within 2 seasons. You seem to live in some fantasy world where the only two midfielders that existed were FDJ and Casemiro. If you come out of your little strawman scenario maybe you’d recognise that a properly run top club would have gone for a 23-24 year old to build around for the next 7 years and could have generated a list of such players for the manager. I can think of at least one pretty obvious candidate you wouldn’t even need a “world leading” scouting database for. Instead we spent a shed ton on a short term solution - and then this year went and got Hojlund to start up front who is a long term solution. So when he’s finally ready to lead a side to challenge that world class midfielder we spent shed loads on to win will be long gone. How you can look at these things and think the board have a scooby what they’re doing astounds me - but then it requires nuance outside of “THE GLAZERS HAVE SPENT MONEY” and thinking that equals supporting a manager so I guess that’s the issue.

Your manager didn't think of any other option bar FDJ, so what are we supposed to do? If we forced another player scouted on him you would have moaned we are forcing cheap and young players on him rather than getting him his first option. If this scouted player flopped it will be all the board's fault. "Should have listened to the manager", "should have spent more and got him his target instead of refusing to spend". "We passed on signing Caseimro to sign this flop". The excuses will never end.

The one living in a world in which the only midfielders existing are either FDJ or Caemeiro is Ten Hag, not me.

Supporting the manager means giving him what he wanted. They did. They overpaid to get him the targets or very good replacement to them. You are daydreaming if you think the club will do that either spending cheap or getting the first choice every single time because get it or not, we are buying players from other clubs not from Football manager video game.
 
so you want a better manager who would still fail because of our failed structure but at least he would be doing better then now?

I think a better manager would probably succeed. Not to the degree of creating a dynasty, but they could win a major title (league, CL).

I think this would be good for United, since they need to regain a winning culture. A good way of regaining that is by winning major titles.
 
The most reliable news regarding the Antony deal either came from De Telegraaf via Mike Verweij or it came from the Brazilian outlets who were very reliable regarding the whole transfer saga all summer. And in particular Jorge Nicola, a Sao Paulo based journalist with a big following on social media who reported in June 2022 about United having two bids rejected early in the transfer window for Antony. The first offer was €45m (£38m) and a second offer of €55m (£47m) was also rejected with Ajax wanting €80m according to Jorge Nicola. United after the second rejected offer seemed to have decided that the deal wasn't making any sense and they walked away only to come back very late in the window to sign the player after the opening day defeats to Brighton and Brentford. And the blame here clearly falls on the ownership who created the problem in that particular transfer window when it came to overpaying for Antony and panicked and dipped into the revolving credit facility with just weeks left in the window. It's why I say that the Glazers are absolutely incompetent at running a football club.

The tweet below citing Jorge Nicola as the source mentions everything I've posted above pertaining the information from the journo.



At any club that is well run with a DoF model in place, the recruitment should be led by the Chief Scout/head of recruitment and not the DoF. John Murtough had fired the previous heads of recruitment on the eve of the summer transfer window in 2022 for under performance in their positions as the recruitment directors. So that transfer window in 2022, required ten Hag to take a more active approach when it came to recruitment whilst John Murtough was replacing the previous head scouts with Simon Wells and a Argentine national named Jose Mayorga. That particular window was always going to be somewhat tunnel visioned until the recruitment structure at the top of the chain was in place with at least a season of scouting and analytics under their belt. Because a DoF is ultimately going to be judged on the people he puts in place within the football departments at the club. I think we're now set as a club on the recruitment side and the next transfer window should see Mayorga, Wells, Jordan and Co have a bigger influence when it comes to signing players. If they don't then I'd be very concerned but that doesn't mean we should stop signing Dutch players or Dutch based players because the Dutch market should be tapped into. There's a right winger who is playing for PSV (Bakayoko) and he looks very explosive and if our scouts flag him up as a recommendation then we should sign him. He probably wouldn't cost a lot either.

Solskjaer said in a recent interview with Andy Mitten about there being a cap on three main signings every summer. If that is the case then it's important to sign the correct three players because even with such a cap, you can create a very strong team imo with a bit of patience. And believe it or not, I don't think we are as far away as many think and I'm now expecting the recruitment department to deliver whilst being supported by the data and video analytics guys. Man Utd have failed for a long time due to a lack of methodology and not a lack of data. If you don't know what you're applying the data towards then it's very difficult to create a well oiled machine. So if know how you want to play, then it's not difficult to sign good players imo. The data and analytics will then follow.

EtH inherited a team with no central focal point in attack, a mediocre midfield, mediocre to above average CBs and a GK who wouldn't get close to the starting 11 of any team that aspired to play a more expansive game. Results usually define how long a head coach stays in his role, but imo if he survives this season then he's in a great position to significantly improve the team because the CB and midfield areas are open for improvement. Mourinho and Solskjaer signed two CBs each (Bailly, Lindelof, Maguire and Varane) and eventhough Varane has been a excellent player in his career, it didn't make a lot of sense to sign him when there was up and coming CBs on the horizon at the time.

Interesting post. One thought though: I think 55 million EUR is already bordering in overpayment but given the potential people saw with him, I wouldn't book it as a massive mistake. But Ajax valueing him at 80 is crazy. To me personally, it was for sure. The difference between 80 and 95 (that we paid according to transfermarkt.de) isn't the "overpay" instance I was criticizing the club for, I thought, it wouldn't be just me. 80 for Antony would have been just as crazy. So, while I agree with you, that the accountability here shouldn't be on ETH but the higher ups, I think, focussing too much on the "delay" aspect doesn't hit the point. The issue here is getting sucked into clubs trying to mug other clubs.

Imagine... we spend a very very good part of our transfer budget in the last 3 years on bringing in young promising players to improve RW. To end up with absolutely nothing. When will the penny drop, that more money isn't going to solve the issue.

You don't need to replace a 30-year-old midfielder within two seasons. I'm not sure why you'd think that. Fernandinho was playing at Manchester City until quite recently and he's 38 years old. Casemiro's midfield partners at Real Madrid are older than him and still playing (Modric is 38 and Kroos is 33).

Casemiro should be perfectly capable of playing at a top club for a few more years. Not as a 4000 minutes per season player, but 2500 or so.
I think, you shouldn't mistake Real Madrid for Man United though. Because a) Real Madrid is not relying on Modric and Kroos, they have a readymade midfield beyond that where each of Valverde, Tchoua and Camavinga is way better than what we have. On top of that, Kroos for instance is slow and rather immobile for quite some time. He modelled his game around it. That is not the case with Casemiro. Don't get me wrong, I like him as a player and I actually think, his form will come back, but to aquire such a player for such a large outlay is always a risk. You can get away with keeping an older player in your team as long as he is already there, you can also get away with buying a player when you have a combination that is solid and functional but is missing experience and winning mentality. But all those things are not applicable to us. He was brought in to instantly take over a position, that has been rotten for the best part of 10 years. There were no backups to him, there was not a functional system around (for instance, very reliable fullbacks to help the midfield) nothing. On top of that, I am sure everybody agrees that we were not trying to bring in De Jong AND Casemiro. We switched after the first got unattainable. The thing is, those players aren't really close in terms of skillset and profile. De Jong is decent in defence but extraordinary in terms of ball progression. Casemiro is very very solid, physical and defensively clever. Saying both are DMs, doesn't matter who we get, is as wrong as it gets (not that you suggested that, it is a general point). De Jong was also in his physical prime, very good age profile while Casemiro may have been in his prime still but nobody is defeating time. Acting as if United of all clubs would be able to identify the (very rare) individuals who actually can last longer than the average, was simply wrong.
 
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Your manager didn't think of any other option bar FDJ, so what are we supposed to do? If we forced another player scouted on him you would have moaned we are forcing cheap and young players on him rather than getting him his first option. If this scouted player flopped it will be all the board's fault. "Should have listened to the manager", "should have spent more and got him his target instead of refusing to spend". "We passed on signing Caseimro to sign this flop". The excuses will never end.

The one living in a world in which the only midfielders existing are either FDJ or Caemeiro is Ten Hag, not me.

Supporting the manager means giving him what he wanted. They did. They overpaid to get him the targets or very good replacement to them. You are daydreaming if you think the club will do that either spending cheap or getting the first choice every single time because get it or not, we are buying players from other clubs not from Football manager video game.
Our manager.
 
I think a better manager would probably succeed. Not to the degree of creating a dynasty, but they could win a major title (league, CL).

I think this would be good for United, since they need to regain a winning culture. A good way of regaining that is by winning major titles.

Or maybe a different/better manager would equally fail.

Chelsea and city didn’t need world class managers to win leagues, hell Chelsea won a CL with Di Matteo. I don’t understand why some people think you have to have the perfect manager to win trophies. This is why I find this idea that we keep just picking the wrong managers as flawed. There’s many managers who can win trophies if there is the right setup/squad.

I couldn’t name half the Bayern/Barca managers of the last 20 years and they don’t do so bad without a Klopp/pep kind of manager. United are as big as those clubs , there’s no reason why a Jose or LVG or ETH shouldn’t be even comfortably qualifying for a CL but United can’t even create the environment to just be a consistent EPL top side.
 
Chelsea and city didn’t need world class managers to win leagues, hell Chelsea won a CL with Di Matteo. I don’t understand why some people think you have to have the perfect manager to win trophies. This is why I find this idea that we keep just picking the wrong managers as flawed. There’s many managers who can win trophies if there is the right setup/squad.

Chelsea have won league titles with Mourinho, Ancelotti, and Conte, all three are world-class managers. They won CLs with Tuchel (who is maybe a tier below world-class) and Di Matteo (who is a massive exception for Chelsea and football in general). So I don't think this point is that strong.
 
The best comparative we have for 'the United effect' is Mourinho.

He last won the PL in 2015, with a +41 GD and 87 point tally. 73 goals for, 32 goals against.

His best season at United, in 2018, was +40 GD and 81 point tally. 68 goals for, 28 goals against.

Is there a difference? Yes. It is enormous? No.
 
Your manager didn't think of any other option bar FDJ, so what are we supposed to do? If we forced another player scouted on him you would have moaned we are forcing cheap and young players on him rather than getting him his first option. If this scouted player flopped it will be all the board's fault. "Should have listened to the manager", "should have spent more and got him his target instead of refusing to spend". "We passed on signing Caseimro to sign this flop". The excuses will never end.

The one living in a world in which the only midfielders existing are either FDJ or Caemeiro is Ten Hag, not me.

Supporting the manager means giving him what he wanted. They did. They overpaid to get him the targets or very good replacement to them. You are daydreaming if you think the club will do that either spending cheap or getting the first choice every single time because get it or not, we are buying players from other clubs not from Football manager video game.

You make it sound like a 1999 manager game. This is a multi billion operation, with hundreds of supporting staff everywhere. When ten Hag came as a new manager, youd expect that multi billion operation to give him a choice of 3 or 4 names for each position. It appears they didnt.

As @Adnan finally (bless you) showed, the powers that be did have Antony on screen, but failed miserably in execution with long lasting consequences as almost all transfers the last 4 years have done. Much overspending, FFP problems up the wazoo and still a squad that is miserably out of balance. """But he spent 400 million"" no, Ten Hag didnt spend 400 milion. That the idiots above him did.

A manager makes or breaks the coming season in june and july. New players have to get in asap and run the pre season games. But the glazers held out the sale and with that, the needed extra money to hark in a. Big new players, and a1: get them at or before 1-7. Hojland, a 2nd or 3rd choice main striker, came almost 12 months after it was very clear in the summer of 22 that United needed a new, big name, big ability striker. Kane was mooted and courted in public for half a year. But, again, the Glazers didnt get the Kane money. Hoijland, a kid with no PL experience, missing pre season and the first month. No getting used to games, instant high pressure to deliver. No wonder the kid hasnt scored and looks a bit nervous. ""Hoijland is a gamble, when Kane is a sure thing"" a lot of journos predicted rightfully in april. That definitly, is on the Glazers.

Mount may not be the best buy, but that position had Fred, Eriksen and Mctominay: all failed miserably. So summer 23 had 2 big wants: a big name striker and a big name midfielder. both didnt come. Some might say Mount was also 20 mill too expensive.

As a side note: I dont think Casemiro fails or is aging. He paid for mistakes up the front, where antony/sancho/rashford to a lesser extend, they all failed to hold a ball. That was why Weghorst of all people, played such a good part in that team. He at least kept the ball up and if lost, shoved anyone near into the ground. Bless you Wout. Opposition didnt know about Weghorst in jan-feb-march but from then on they figured out how to cancel him out and started to press him and Shaw out of the game. (that was a fantastic tactic, truth be told)

The last game again, Casemiro came into problems because of players up front not doing their job well in a high press game.

Im very happy Fulham was a win. It was gritty, not pretty and Antony again looked a ghost. But Lissandro and Shaw should be back soon, I pray rathcliff gets in before january and then at least 2 or 3 choice well scouted players have to be added. And, preferably, antony shipped out.
 
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