Except he's. He insisted on these players. The club overpaid to please him, but alright let's keep on blaming the Glazers instead because it's cool. If they hadn't overpaid for Mount and Antony they would have been slaughtered for not backing the manager instead and refusing to pay the additional fees. Poor Ten Hag.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
- Status
Except he's. He insisted on these players. The club overpaid to please him, but alright let's keep on blaming the Glazers instead because it's cool. If they hadn't overpaid for Mount and Antony they would have been slaughtered for not backing the manager instead and refusing to pay the additional fees. Poor Ten Hag.
How much do you think we can get for Antony now if he was to be sold?
You are 100% correct.
How about we blame the Glazers for creating a structure where the manager is also the DOF and chief fecking scout? He shouldn’t be picking the sodding signings. I also have no clue how you know Mount was first choice. We were also heavily linked to both Rice who was completely out of our price range and Macallister. Ditto on Casemiro - we know for a fact he most certainly wasn’t first choice.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 17,359
- Supports
️
Of course they don’t but they have a footballing structure put in place and overseen by industry leaders like Dan Ashworth who has a track record of making 3 major footballing improvements to England, Brighton and most recently Newcastle (as well as numerous smaller developments).
Do you think the Glazers have helped create a successful sporting structure since we lost Gill and Ferguson?
If that happened and the manager flopped people would moan about how he flopped because he didn't choose his own players and the board forced players on him. You and others will invent any excuse to blame the board for the manager failing. Even the fact the board overpaid to give him the players he wanted is used against them anyway.
Because we kept on coming for Mount specifically even though Chelsea kept on rejecting our offers. We didn't move on to other targets, no we insisted. There's no reason for the club to sign a bang average Chelsea midfielder for that sum of money despite Chelsea rejecting the earlier offer unless the manager asked for him. It's not rocket science.
Have we started the "these signings aren't his first choice" kind of argument?
Which manager gets his first choice ten times out of times? He got Caseimro, one of the best defenders in the world, instead of FDJ. Not like we brought him a no name player from Championship, and we overpaid for Caseimro. Could have just told him to get on with Scott and Fred instead and you guys would have exploded, but now even Caseimro, who played a huge role in finishing top 4 last year, is used as an argument against the board. Crazy stuff.
These arguments were also said about the Liverpool's board. Remember when they fecked up the Suarez deal money and signed ton of crap players with the team going downhill and how they were mocked? Then they just hired Klopp.
Klopp single handedly led Liverpool to glory. But for United we need to have everything aligned for our manager to even play good football. He needs to have a proper structure, billions of money to buy a full new squad and no injuries or bad luck or referees before we can judge him.
The manager signed up for this knowing this is how the structure would be. He's at fault for not having the intelligence to discern if it's too much accountability for his role. Eth has made poor signings, the club is not at fault for that neither the Glazers. It is Erik that looked at this team and thought Antony on the right is a good idea. It hasn't worked out so be it. You can't absolve the manager of that decision, he has to own up to it no different to how people praise him (not the club) for signing Martinez.
If his wages are the rumoured £200k per week then we’ll be lucky to get £20 million for him.
It isn’t crazy stuff to recognise that signing a 30 year old for 70m quid in midfield was moronic. No other top team does that just like no other top team gives the control of signings to managers like we do. We all loved last season but it was obvious medium term Casemiro was a highly risky signing. The fact you think questioning the logic of that signing is crazy helps explain your posts.
Even young fergie would be considered "failure" with this fanbase.
Don't sign players they want - bad
Sign players they want with ridiculous fee - bad
Don't sell unwanted players - bad
Sign bad players - Ok this one it's on him, but still these should be manager's task.
At hipster club of the season, Brighton they don't operate like this but people keep bringing them up as a stick to beat ETH. Jaysus, make up your mind, folks.
Honestly, similar to Sancho. Just getting his dumb wage off the books would be a win...
He wanted FDJ. We couldn't get him, so we got him Caseimro. Not sure what the club fault is here. So it's either first choice or burst? Would you have enjoyed watching Scott and Fred combo last season or you would have moaned about the club not getting a replacement for Ten Hag instead of FDJ?
We overpaid for Caseimro just like how we overpaid for Mount and Antony. It's not like the club enjoys wasting money. They are doing it to please your manager and at least shut up his excuses.
The Ten Hag relation is a bit like with my wife: absolutly crazy at times, but I wouldnt want to live without her.
But he has to let go of his Anthony fixation. Less but equal: Rashford.
But he has to let go of his Anthony fixation. Less but equal: Rashford.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 17,359
- Supports
- ️
My question was:
But also your understanding of Liverpools success is immensely flawed I suggest you read up on Michael Edwards and co https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/michael-edwards/profil/trainer/72294
Klopp himself has on numerous occssions in press conferences acknowledged the background staff that enabled him to win.
Saying it was all down to Klopp is categorically incorrect.
Want him to stay but goddamn it. Goddamn it that we can bring on board a promising system manager and lose them without ever having seen them try to implement what they were recruited for, and he has only himself to blame, he and the other jokers. United way my arse. Who asked him for any of this? There was already a growing minority belief that building around the strengths of our faux stars would be a mistake.
Last edited:
The club is at fault for spending 70m quid and 350k a week on a player we’d need replacing within 2 seasons. You seem to live in some fantasy world where the only two midfielders that existed were FDJ and Casemiro. If you come out of your little strawman scenario maybe you’d recognise that a properly run top club would have gone for a 23-24 year old to build around for the next 7 years and could have generated a list of such players for the manager. I can think of at least one pretty obvious candidate you wouldn’t even need a “world leading” scouting database for. Instead we spent a shed ton on a short term solution - and then this year went and got Hojlund to start up front who is a long term solution. So when he’s finally ready to lead a side to challenge that world class midfielder we spent shed loads on to win will be long gone. How you can look at these things and think the board have a scooby what they’re doing astounds me - but then it requires nuance outside of “THE GLAZERS HAVE SPENT MONEY” and thinking that equals supporting a manager so I guess that’s the issue.
It's a pointless question. Antony was this expensive because United insisted on buying him late in the window when Ajax didn't want to cooperate - so there was a huge premium that had nothing to do with Antony's actual value (which anyway also depends on remaining contract length). Except if he becomes super good or United are dealing with a club in a similar situation, the price will never be the same.
That doesn't mean that United didn't overpay for Antony, but ultimately, that's United's fault, not Ten Hag's (or Antony's). He just shouldn't have to make those calls, United should have a structure for that and be much more proactive. (In fact, I think @Adnan explained that United had a chance with Antony much earlier that window, but kept on waffling until that last-minute situation.) If that doesn't change within United, the next manager will end up making similar errors.
I mean, Ten Hag clearly doesn't seem to be a master transfer strategist, but which coach is? Klopp made some errors when he pulled more power to himself, I think Guardiola doesn't really want to be involved at all, and I am not aware of someone like De Zerbi ever having given signs of being good on transfers. (If anything, Ten Hag had some pedigree in that respect, as I think he was a de facto DoF at Utrecht - although obviously he's not shown he can play that role at the highest level.)
So yeah, that transfer was poor business, but it was the result of a poor process, and blaming (or even sacking) Ten Hag for being poor at a job he shouldn't have (if United's organization made sense) would be illogical.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 17,359
- Supports
- ️
Good post
The performances this season have been just so bad.
Even if we win a few games in a row, it means nothing if the performances continue to be this poor.
Even if we win a few games in a row, it means nothing if the performances continue to be this poor.
Explain the situation at United well. Every manager is expected to fail at United because club/fans expect him to be chief scout, head of recruitment, master of negotiation and player manager on top of all these. The point is to have competent football board that is on the same page with manager, not either one or another.
Unfortunately, United has neither, if board takes full control, we'd have more of Ronaldo, Donny van Beek, Sancho, Amad and the likes...Just "feel good" signings that no one has any idea how they would play. If manager takes control, he'd likely overpaid for 1-2 players (Lukaku, Dimaria, Antony, Sanchez) and scratch his head when they do not work out, which is more often than not.
Both the board and Erik is obviously flaw in their judgement. Board should never buy anyone above 28, let alone 30 yo to Man Utd with such a fee. Any high fee should only for players at their peak 25-27 yo. No matter how great Casemiro's resume looks, we should never have bought them. Just look at Real, their marquee signing are young or players at the peak. United goes and buy their has-been, that's so wrong. Any old players who wants to play for United should either come on a free transfer or low fee. Erik should be rejected the board's recommendation stating that Casemiro is a short term fixed. Likewise, Erik's targets like Antony and Martinez stating Antony is too slow and can't cross whereas Martinez is too short and small to be a centre back. It's seem everyone is trying to make this work in the first year with both parties compromising on their needs resulting a dysfunctional team that has no RW and ageing DM. Is this a football club? Nobody needs to be pal with other person. ETH is a Dutch, Dutch is straight forward no nonsense people. If Keane is the DOF, most of Erik's target would not be sanction. There will probably alot of disagreement and ultimately they will reach a consensus of who to buy. That's what we need.
The most reliable news regarding the Antony deal either came from De Telegraaf via Mike Verweij or it came from the Brazilian outlets who were very reliable regarding the whole transfer saga all summer. And in particular Jorge Nicola, a Sao Paulo based journalist with a big following on social media who reported in June 2022 about United having two bids rejected early in the transfer window for Antony. The first offer was €45m (£38m) and a second offer of €55m (£47m) was also rejected with Ajax wanting €80m according to Jorge Nicola. United after the second rejected offer seemed to have decided that the deal wasn't making any sense and they walked away only to come back very late in the window to sign the player after the opening day defeats to Brighton and Brentford. And the blame here clearly falls on the ownership who created the problem in that particular transfer window when it came to overpaying for Antony and panicked and dipped into the revolving credit facility with just weeks left in the window. It's why I say that the Glazers are absolutely incompetent at running a football club.
The tweet below citing Jorge Nicola as the source mentions everything I've posted above pertaining the information from the journo.
At any club that is well run with a DoF model in place, the recruitment should be led by the Chief Scout/head of recruitment and not the DoF. John Murtough had fired the previous heads of recruitment on the eve of the summer transfer window in 2022 for under performance in their positions as the recruitment directors. So that transfer window in 2022, required ten Hag to take a more active approach when it came to recruitment whilst John Murtough was replacing the previous head scouts with Simon Wells and a Argentine national named Jose Mayorga. That particular window was always going to be somewhat tunnel visioned until the recruitment structure at the top of the chain was in place with at least a season of scouting and analytics under their belt. Because a DoF is ultimately going to be judged on the people he puts in place within the football departments at the club. I think we're now set as a club on the recruitment side and the next transfer window should see Mayorga, Wells, Jordan and Co have a bigger influence when it comes to signing players. If they don't then I'd be very concerned but that doesn't mean we should stop signing Dutch players or Dutch based players because the Dutch market should be tapped into. There's a right winger who is playing for PSV (Bakayoko) and he looks very explosive and if our scouts flag him up as a recommendation then we should sign him. He probably wouldn't cost a lot either.
Solskjaer said in a recent interview with Andy Mitten about there being a cap on three main signings every summer. If that is the case then it's important to sign the correct three players because even with such a cap, you can create a very strong team imo with a bit of patience. And believe it or not, I don't think we are as far away as many think and I'm now expecting the recruitment department to deliver whilst being supported by the data and video analytics guys. Man Utd have failed for a long time due to a lack of methodology and not a lack of data. If you don't know what you're applying the data towards then it's very difficult to create a well oiled machine. So if know how you want to play, then it's not difficult to sign good players imo. The data and analytics will then follow.
EtH inherited a team with no central focal point in attack, a mediocre midfield, mediocre to above average CBs and a GK who wouldn't get close to the starting 11 of any team that aspired to play a more expansive game. Results usually define how long a head coach stays in his role, but imo if he survives this season then he's in a great position to significantly improve the team because the CB and midfield areas are open for improvement. Mourinho and Solskjaer signed two CBs each (Bailly, Lindelof, Maguire and Varane) and eventhough Varane has been a excellent player in his career, it didn't make a lot of sense to sign him when there was up and coming CBs on the horizon at the time.
Relax. Just pointing out how ridiculously hyperbolic the whole Brighton fluffing in the media was.
While we are scrambling around looking for excuses for ETH, are we conveniently forgetting that he demanded control over transfers and has said himself that he wouldn't have taken the job without it?
Also, the major issue with the Antony transfer is not that we paid 30 million too much but that we bought him at all, after ETH had overruled red flags raised by our scouts. But I suppose the American business men should be blamed for not being able to spot talent, rather than the football manager?
It's incredible the lengths people will go to in order to absolve him of any blame for failing in every aspect of the job.
If the club had overruled him on transfers, people would have jumped on that as an excuse instead – that he wasn't backed.
Also, the major issue with the Antony transfer is not that we paid 30 million too much but that we bought him at all, after ETH had overruled red flags raised by our scouts. But I suppose the American business men should be blamed for not being able to spot talent, rather than the football manager?
It's incredible the lengths people will go to in order to absolve him of any blame for failing in every aspect of the job.
If the club had overruled him on transfers, people would have jumped on that as an excuse instead – that he wasn't backed.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 17,359
- Supports
- ️
Do you have a blog? Or a website where you do this?
Because I almost always enjoy your posts.
You don't need to replace a 30-year-old midfielder within two seasons. I'm not sure why you'd think that. Fernandinho was playing at Manchester City until quite recently and he's 38 years old. Casemiro's midfield partners at Real Madrid are older than him and still playing (Modric is 38 and Kroos is 33).
Casemiro should be perfectly capable of playing at a top club for a few more years. Not as a 4000 minutes per season player, but 2500 or so.
No super club the size of United has gone through over a decade of failures on signings and managerial appointments. There is no club you can compare us to on spending and revenue etc, that has Done so bad at pretty much every footballing decision being made or not made. United have destroyed every player and manager we have signed, i can’t understand how anybody can think we just need to pick the right manager.
At some point, perhaps some of you will catch-up and realise that sometimes the issue is simply how a club is being run. If managers have been choosing their signings , that’s the clubs fault for not having a competent football structure like every other competent club in the world.
Are you just inventing things to suit an agenda, or can you actually point to any corroboration of that? It sounds unrealistic and ludicrous, and I can’t remember ever seeing anything like that.
Both can be true at once. We all know the structure of the club needs change. Does that absolve ETH of responsively for getting much less out of the squad than the sum of its parts, in terms of both results and performances, while continuingly failing to identify the right players or profiles in his transfers?
Does that absolve ETH of what?
We aren’t setup to win. Our club is not a successful club because we aren’t the best in class at anything other then marketing.
Every manager we hire has a less chance of success then do at successful clubs because successful clubs have a football infrastructure that helps their managers succeed. If you don’t Create an environment for success while simultaneously demanding success, you can’t blame a manager for struggling in that environment.
ETH could do better if United was setup to win. It’s not. That’s clearly evident after 10 years of failure.
So explain how the Glazers are hindering ETH from working with the squad on the training pitch, implementing an identifiable style of play while improving players and performances?
I still don't understand playing with the high press and not having the fullbacks tucked in to add cover in midfield. Even moreso when the deepest midfielder is Eriksen, whose legs are completely shot.
Casemiro is capable, but the system he’s in now expects him to do it all alone.
@Adnan is one of the most lucid and interesting posters on this forum!
If I have to explain what’s already been discussed ad nauseam there’s no point in explaining.
Let’s turn that around. PSG and City spent a fortune , yet only city attained their goals. What do you think separated them from success and failure? (It wasn’t soending) You see, some of you seem to think “well lots of money spent so what else could glazers do?”. Well they could hire the best people to run the club , that’s a start.
The amount of money United have wasted is obscene. There’s so many examples of players being kept simply to keep the squad value on a balance sheet up. That’s not ideal for a team supposedly wanting to be best in class.
There’s so many Examples of questionable things and previous managers saying that the club isn’t being run like successful clubs. But sure some of you can keep ignoring it and convincing yourself it’s all simply managers coming in and wrecking the place while the poor old owners can do nothing to change.
That's not an answer to my question. It's such a diffuse concept, football structure, which makes it the perfect excuse because no-one outside of football (meaning all of us) actually knows what it means, so you can always claim that is the problem.
They're not IMHO. Between the Glazers and ETH, the responsibility of the season is shared. The issue is that a lot of fans wanna back the manager and not even consider the impact he could still have despite the owners.
Interested to see his next line up. Antony shouldn’t even make the bench. Fecking terrible player.
We’ve got the 3 points with our backs against the wall but we need to improve. Every single win this season has been a complete slog, the football is generally some of the worst I’ve ever seen from this club.
We’ve got the 3 points with our backs against the wall but we need to improve. Every single win this season has been a complete slog, the football is generally some of the worst I’ve ever seen from this club.
- Status