Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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iamking said:
I perfectly understand where you are coming from. All of us share your pain/disappointment, hard times for us. Optimism is not a wrong thing, "blind" optimism is wrong, thats what we had at the start of last season when most of our base jumped for a title tilt dissing pool, while every logic and metric was screaming against it. But this time is not blind optimism, just logic.

Our owners took some terrible decisions. Hiring LVG was wrong, extending Mourinho was wrong, signing OLE fulltime so soon was the worst thing. Its not just our owners, all our ex-players and super pundits are terrible as well constantly picking sides and showing favoritisms. They are responsible for the complete mess as well. I can't believe OLE was kept that long at the job and its on as much our ex-pros as the owners.

But for all the bad things our owners are, they are definitely not skint. That means, if we get the board fixed and the manager right it wont take us long to get back to the top again. Getting the right manager is the 1st step and I think with ETH we have taken the 1st step well. This guy builds his team, has a sound structure and in short seems to know what he is doing and not outdated. Will he be able to challenge Pep/Klopp, not possible atleast not yet. But he can challenge lego-pep and Tuchel. Conte is a beast of a manager and luckily for us he is stuck with Spurs which makes challenging him a possibility too. So yeah, you can quote me later, we will be up there with the rest of the best (other than City/Pool) and thats where our expectations should lie realistically.
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A very good response, one without simply shooting down others opinion with ridicule and laughter! You won't be a newbie for long.

Having said that, we disagree on the fact hiring the right manager is the first step, we need to fix the board first and from what little we've seen so far, I'm yet to be convinced - we've appointed a manager (a very good one, one that I desperately wanted) that had worked under an excellent team, a director of football who was in charge of player purchases, while we seem to have had no clue on targets until Ten Hag arrived - this points to us having not changed, giving too much say to managers in recruitment.

And I think you're downplaying Spurs more than a little here, they're significantly improving their squad under a very good manager, yes its Spurs and things could go pear-shaped, but they're a club that are doing things the correct way - hiring a dof and manager with a similar philosophy, meaning the players they sign will likely be useful for the next manger.

Chelsea have new owners and haven't long won the CL, we're a long way off them.

Arsenal are Arsenal, but that still leaves for teams above us, that's without factoring in teams that were closer to us last season improving.

I'm hoping my reservations are incorrect, but I guess we'll see.
 
yumtum said:
A very good response, one without simply shooting down others opinion with ridicule and laughter! You won't be a newbie for long.

Having said that, we disagree on the fact hiring the right manager is the first step, we need to fix the board first and from what little we've seen so far, I'm yet to be convinced - we've appointed a manager (a very good one, one that I desperately wanted) that had worked under an excellent team, a director of football who was in charge of player purchases, while we seem to have had no clue on targets until Ten Hag arrived - this points to us having not changed, giving too much say to managers in recruitment.

And I think you're downplaying Spurs more than a little here, they're significantly improving their squad under a very good manager, yes its Spurs and things could go pear-shaped, but they're a club that are doing things the correct way - hiring a dof and manager with a similar philosophy, meaning the players they sign will likely be useful for the next manger.

Chelsea have new owners and haven't long won the CL, we're a long way off them.

Arsenal are Arsenal, but that still leaves for teams above us, that's without factoring in teams that were closer to us last season improving.

I'm hoping my reservations are incorrect, but I guess we'll see.
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Your point about getting the board fixed is absolutely right and the blame is entirely on our owners. The objective of the board I feel is to appoint the right manager, and I believe after lot of failures they have finally managed to do it, (more like stumbled on it by chance). Getting the right manager in my opinion is the single most important thing for a club, even more than fixing the board as it will directly translate to the on-field performance. A bad board can be patiently rebuilt, but a bad manager is an instant disaster.

Lot of people mistake transfer purchase and contract failures as a direct board failure. Transfer/contract failure is due to the board hiring the wrong manager and tussling with him without direction. LVG was a terrible outdated manager and the board kept purchasing swashbuckling Fergiusque players for him. Mourinho another fix a broken tooth with an iron rod kinda manager, and the board was completely confused whom to buy seeing his failed no ROI purchases. So getting the Manager right I would say is the most important thing.

Pool proved this with the Klopp appointment. The same Michael Edwards hailed as the so called transfer guru was crap under Dalglish/Rodgers. They got Balotelli, Firmino, Allen, Henderson, Charlie freaking Adams .. etc.,.. All the magic happened ONLY after they got Klopp as they knew what the system was and what are the players needed. Spurs did the same to some extent with Poch. All the players kind of started fitting in well and nice and suddenly Levi looked like a transfer genius. Remember its the same guy who spent loads on Soldado, etc pre-poch. And also post-Poch, some of the players who looked world beaters under Poch suddenly turned into terrible and bad eggs under Mourinho.

So my point is, Yes our Board needs to be fixed. But it can be done gradually as long as the manager is right. I think our terrible board finally got someone right. A progressive manager. Unless they botch it up by firing him too early listening to our great "Pundits" in the hyperbolic media, I am sure we will be doing great this season. Cheer up!.

As for Tottenham and Conte, yes they are formidable, but we are not far behind them at all. We have a formidable team on paper. Get a midfielder to rival Hojberg, we will be ahead of Spurs. Our problem is a "belief" thing. If the team starts believing, with the right manager, we have the players to do damage. We will be right there behind Pool/City.
 
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iamking said:
Your point about getting the board fixed is absolutely right and the blame is entirely on our owners. The objective of the board I feel is to appoint the right manager, and I believe after lot of failures they have finally managed to do it, (more like stumbled on it by chance). Getting the right manager in my opinion is the single most important thing for a club, even more than fixing the board as it will directly translate to the on-field performance. A bad board can be patiently rebuilt, but a bad manager is an instant disaster.

Lot of people mistake transfer purchase and contract failures as a direct board failure. Transfer/contract failure is due to the board hiring the wrong manager and tussling with him without direction. LVG was a terrible outdated manager and the board kept purchasing swashbuckling Fergiusque players for him. Mourinho another fix a broken tooth with an iron rod kinda manager, and the board was completely confused whom to buy seeing his failed no ROI purchases. So getting the Manager right I would say is the most important thing.

Pool proved this with the Klopp appointment. The same Michael Edwards hailed as the so called transfer guru was crap under Dalglish/Rodgers. They got Balotelli, Firmino, Allen, Henderson, Charlie freaking Adams .. etc.,.. All the magic happened ONLY after they got Klopp as they knew what the system was and what are the players needed. Spurs did the same to some extent with Poch. All the players kind of started fitting in well and nice and suddenly Levi looked like a transfer genius. Remember its the same guy who spent loads on Soldado, etc pre-poch. And also post-Poch, some of the players who looked world beaters under Poch suddenly turned into terrible and bad eggs under Mourinho.

So my point is, Yes our Board needs to be fixed. But it can be done gradually as long as the manager is right. I think our terrible board finally got someone right. A progressive manager. Unless they botch it up by firing him too early listening to our great "Pundits" in the hyperbolic media, I am sure we will be doing great this season. Cheer up!.

As for Tottenham and Conte, yes they are formidable, but we are not far behind them at all. We have a formidable team on paper. Get a midfielder to rival Hojberg, we will be ahead of Spurs. Our problem is a "belief" thing. If the team starts believing, with the right manager, we have the players to do damage. We will be right there behind Pool/City.
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When you say board are you referring to the board of directors?
 
yumtum said:
A very good response, one without simply shooting down others opinion with ridicule and laughter! You won't be a newbie for long.

Having said that, we disagree on the fact hiring the right manager is the first step, we need to fix the board first and from what little we've seen so far, I'm yet to be convinced - we've appointed a manager (a very good one, one that I desperately wanted) that had worked under an excellent team, a director of football who was in charge of player purchases, while we seem to have had no clue on targets until Ten Hag arrived - this points to us having not changed, giving too much say to managers in recruitment.

And I think you're downplaying Spurs more than a little here, they're significantly improving their squad under a very good manager, yes its Spurs and things could go pear-shaped, but they're a club that are doing things the correct way - hiring a dof and manager with a similar philosophy, meaning the players they sign will likely be useful for the next manger.

Chelsea have new owners and haven't long won the CL, we're a long way off them.

Arsenal are Arsenal, but that still leaves for teams above us, that's without factoring in teams that were closer to us last season improving.

I'm hoping my reservations are incorrect, but I guess we'll see.
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How do you fix the board? Are you Joel Glazer in disguise?
 
sglowrider said:
How do you fix the board? Are you Joel Glazer in disguise?
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I meant those below the board, my mistake.

@iamking I think we're on a similar wave length, just with slightly different viewpoints, I think us getting Ten Hag is a good thing, now all we need to see if the people above him are worth their paypacket - normal clubs tend to get the football directors etc sorted before the manager, then the director of football implements the style, and chooses managers and players to fit that style, now this is where my criticism is directed, we should have had a list of targets ready to go before Ten Hag arrived, but we've only now gotten targets after he's arrived, which means our recruitment will be months behind others.

It will hopefully be better next year, but my fear is that if Ten Hag doesn't work out, we'll be going through the same crap again, hiring a manager that doesn't play a certain way, and only getting targets when he arrives, which is simply too late to start approaching players (it takes months to sound out a player and assess if he has the capability of playing at the highest level).
 
Giggsyking said:


Tough start
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Looks like we need to be up and running 100% from day one.
Anyone know realistically how long will it takes to build a team fitness up to say City and Liverpool level?
Is it realistic to do it before Aug prior to the season start?
I don't want to see the team give up again after 45 mins of high intensity football under ETH.
 
I hope he really has a solid plan and is not panicking at the lack of signings like I am.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Looks like we need to be up and running 100% from day one.
Anyone know realistically how long will it takes to build a team fitness up to say City and Liverpool level?
Is it realistic to do it before Aug prior to the season start?
I don't want to see the team give up again after 45 mins of high intensity football under ETH.
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No
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Anyone know realistically how long will it takes to build a team fitness up to say City and Liverpool level?
Click to expand...

I don’t think that can be done in a single pre-season. Think they can make the team a lot fitter, but the absolute best level of fitness come along with the tactics being drilled and the coach having all his players able to play at his required intensity. I think there’s certain players who can’t/won’t be able to do what ETH wants physically. Also, I know Liverpool recruited Bayern Munich’s nutritionist and in her interviews she talks about improving elements of that year on year. I expect United are years behind in that area and in other areas like injury prevention etc.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Looks like we need to be up and running 100% from day one.
Anyone know realistically how long will it takes to build a team fitness up to say City and Liverpool level?
Is it realistic to do it before Aug prior to the season start?
I don't want to see the team give up again after 45 mins of high intensity football under ETH.
Click to expand...

I don't have any credentials in fitness etc and can only talk from personal experience, but I think a good 4-6 weeks of training would have them there (then actual intense gametime for a couple of months), given they already have good fitness levels (compared to the average joe).

The problem is, we won't get that. Many players are getting a break because of international duty and the pre-season fixtures abroad, with travelling etc, will probably prevent good, continuous training.

EDIT: This is on a best case scenario because as @Rocksy pointed out, nutrition and injury prevention is also critical. Along with actual ability of players to display the stamina that some of the City & Liverpool players do. I suspect many of ours won't.

Poch, for example, managed to take Southampton from one of the laziest to one of the most energetic squads when he went there. It would be interesting to know how long that took.
 
If we don't sign a player this summer because we don't want to be taken for a walk......... we can still hope/believe that our new manager can build a hard working, attractive football team.

We need to stop thinking that transfers are the primary solution to our ailing team. So many of our players have the skills needed to play the way we want.

There are a few players that don't but there is already enough to work with for next year.

We should approach transfers confident in our new coach's ability to work with his existing squad. Any signings are a bonus.

Flailing around desperately in the transfer market has been the main cause of our woes over the past 10 years. From Fellaini to Sanchez to Maguire.
 
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iamking said:
I perfectly understand where you are coming from. All of us share your pain/disappointment, hard times for us. Optimism is not a wrong thing, "blind" optimism is wrong, thats what we had at the start of last season when most of our base jumped for a title tilt dissing pool, while every logic and metric was screaming against it. But this time is not blind optimism, just logic.

Our owners took some terrible decisions. Hiring LVG was wrong, extending Mourinho was wrong, signing OLE fulltime so soon was the worst thing. Its not just our owners, all our ex-players and super pundits are terrible as well constantly picking sides and showing favoritisms. They are responsible for the complete mess as well. I can't believe OLE was kept that long at the job and its on as much our ex-pros as the owners.

But for all the bad things our owners are, they are definitely not skint. That means, if we get the board fixed and the manager right it wont take us long to get back to the top again. Getting the right manager is the 1st step and I think with ETH we have taken the 1st step well. This guy builds his team, has a sound structure and in short seems to know what he is doing and not outdated. Will he be able to challenge Pep/Klopp, not possible atleast not yet. But he can challenge lego-pep and Tuchel. Conte is a beast of a manager and luckily for us he is stuck with Spurs which makes challenging him a possibility too. So yeah, you can quote me later, we will be up there with the rest of the best (other than City/Pool) and thats where our expectations should lie realistically.
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Good post. I'll just add that where we are right now, the owners are not the hinderance, time and again they have shown us that they do make funds available for signings, the problem has been lack of direction, poor scouting and incompetence in identifying the targets and then any sort of coaching to get the best out of the signings, let alone improve them.

The poster you're responding to is also correct in a way, because the glazers will release funds only till we make top 4 and get into the CL on a consistent basis, if we keep finishing 4th and make it to the last 16 or last 8 of the CL, the glazers will be happy with that and will not be ambitious enough to make the recruitments that could be the difference between top 4 and title challenge. They're business people and the investment required to make that jump (from top 4 to title challenge) is not worth it for them, especially given the fact that it does not guarantee titles.

In conclusion, at this point in time it's the people working for transfers that are the problem, not the owners, but do not for one second believe that we'll have the investment it takes to make a title push.
 
Not great so far. Just like our last 3 managers he’s struggling in the transfer market. Think we’ve got another dud.
 
iamking said:
I used it in a collective sense of decision makers.

@yumtum cheers bro!
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Okay I think in relation
pocco said:
I don't have any credentials in fitness etc and can only talk from personal experience, but I think a good 4-6 weeks of training would have them there (then actual intense gametime for a couple of months), given they already have good fitness levels (compared to the average joe).

The problem is, we won't get that. Many players are getting a break because of international duty and the pre-season fixtures abroad, with travelling etc, will probably prevent good, continuous training.

EDIT: This is on a best case scenario because as @Rocksy pointed out, nutrition and injury prevention is also critical. Along with actual ability of players to display the stamina that some of the City & Liverpool players do. I suspect many of ours won't.

Poch, for example, managed to take Southampton from one of the laziest to one of the most energetic squads when he went there. It would be interesting to know how long that took.
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Its important to note also that teams like Liverpool and City aren't the hardest running teams in the league, teams like Southampton and Leeds actually are. That's because the bigger teams keep the ball for longer spells due to their technical qualities and opponent employing a defensive tactics against them.
Its becomes easier if opponent fear we're to good to pressed, but definitely we'll need to up our fitness because last season it was so obvious even without the stats that we were very much behind everyone else.
I guess it will take preseason and probably half a season of intense training but it will also depend on the individuals as starting now already.
 
Okay I'll just say it then.

If he doesnt win his first pre season game against Liverpool, he should be sacked. /s
 
Zoo said:
City and Liverpool maybe but there's no reason to be scared.
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You have seen us struggle to get draws against relegation battling teams lately haven’t you...and you know our squad is even further depleted since then don’t you...and you we have a new manager and a whole new back room staff don’t you...and you are aware that all those teams were better than us last season and have since strengthened...don’t you?

I admire your steadfast bravery but it is rather misplaced I fear.
 
Real Name said:
'First games' in the span of 3 months.
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I heard a rumour that we will have to play them all again in the next 6 months of the season too. Doesn't look good does it.

Highfather_24 said:
Okay I'll just say it then.

If he doesnt win his first pre season game against Liverpool, he should be sacked. /s
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Someone had to say it. I haven't noticed any difference in our training or style of play since he arrived either. I'm amazed more people aren't asking questions.
 
captaincantona said:
You have seen us struggle to get draws against relegation battling teams lately haven’t you...and you know our squad is even further depleted since then don’t you...and you we have a new manager and a whole new back room staff don’t you...and you are aware that all those teams were better than us last season and have since strengthened...don’t you?

I admire your steadfast bravery but it is rather misplaced I fear.
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A new manager and staff who will start coaching these players properly unlike Ralf and his MLS backroom staff mates.
 
kthanksbye said:
Good post. I'll just add that where we are right now, the owners are not the hinderance, time and again they have shown us that they do make funds available for signings, the problem has been lack of direction, poor scouting and incompetence in identifying the targets and then any sort of coaching to get the best out of the signings, let alone improve them.

The poster you're responding to is also correct in a way, because the glazers will release funds only till we make top 4 and get into the CL on a consistent basis, if we keep finishing 4th and make it to the last 16 or last 8 of the CL, the glazers will be happy with that and will not be ambitious enough to make the recruitments that could be the difference between top 4 and title challenge. They're business people and the investment required to make that jump (from top 4 to title challenge) is not worth it for them, especially given the fact that it does not guarantee titles.

In conclusion, at this point in time it's the people working for transfers that are the problem, not the owners, but do not for one second believe that we'll have the investment it takes to make a title push.
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I am not entirely convinced that Glazers are happy with 4th argument. Under LVG Glazers spent a lot of money to push for a title challenge with an ensemble of super star signings. Under Ole last season, again Glazers supported Ole with investments many thought would take us to the title. The only seasons they didn't back the manager to push ahead was under Mourinho (the season we came 2nd) becos Mourinho was pushing for Toby Alderwereild, and other Oldies; And against our "Chosen One". This talk about getting 4th is enough for the Glazers is in my opinion borne out of fan frustration at the lack of success or direction in the club. In general, Winning trophies and getting to the top means more 'money' in all forms (better sponsors, more prize money, more fan contribution and sales). So this settling down with 4th is generally associated with skint clubs, what Pool/Arse used to be.

Also blaming the transfer committee for all the poor signings is not a black and white thing. Fred for example, was one of the most sought after talent when we went out to procure him. Maguire had the profile to be a top CB for a low-block counter team. AWB another one who is extremely talented in shutting out people. Transfer failures are mostly 2-way streets. Mourinho was pushing the club for signing players who were at the fag end of their career and may be would do well for a season before turning into dud/old. It was right that the club denied him. I remember him leaving Inter after the treble and Benitez had to change almost the entire squad as they had aged out in less than a season (Maicon vs Bale in CL that season proved how Mourinho pushes for the now, spending millions on peaked players leaving us in a poorer position overall)

It was the same with Ole as well. His transfers didn't fail solely because of the transfer committee. A top no 9 would have been Halaand, and Ole couldn't lure him as things were complicated becos of Raiola (RIP). We had to settle with Cavani. Mbappe/Lewa weren't going to play for Ole not in a million years. He had no idea how to fit in the other "buys" making them look like failures, but in fact these very same players are not even been utilized to a tenth of their abilities due to bad tactics and coaching.

The point is with a Good manager, there is direction on and off the field. The transfer committee knows whom to get and any failings then can be rightly associated with them. Glazers and all other owners with money know very well that the best way to improve the business is not to settle for 4th but to build the team to WIN.
 
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Olecurls99 said:
Flailing around desperately in the transfer market has been the main cause of our woes over the past 10 years. From Fellaini to Sanchez to Maguire.
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Spot on. How mad is it though that I immediately thought "it's a bit harsh to lump Fellaini in with those two", but I realised your point would have been more to do with the actual transfer and not the output on the pitch.
 
Marcus said:
I hope he really has a solid plan and is not panicking at the lack of signings like I am.
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I share this fear but only due to the feelings of incompetence attached to the board/management, mostly due to the past experience we have seen of them. The current management is still a bit new so I will try to reserve judgement until the start of the season.

Having said all that, the one thing that Ten Hag appears to be is very competent and even though he might not have all the tools he wants (players), he appears to be the kind of guy who can make it work and even figure out what to do with the tools available. Apologies for the analogy, but I just mean he does not appear to be a guy who panics and that gives me hope, and hopefully helps to hear too.
 
iamking said:
I am not entirely convinced that Glazers are happy with 4th argument. Under LVG Glazers spent a lot of money to push for a title challenge with an ensemble of super star signings. Under Ole last season, again Glazers supported Ole with investments many thought would take us to the title. The only seasons they didn't back the manager to push ahead was under Mourinho (the season we came 2nd) becos Mourinho was pushing for Toby Alderwereild, and other Oldies; And against our "Chosen One". This talk about getting 4th is enough for the Glazers is in my opinion borne out of fan frustration at the lack of success or direction in the club. In general, Winning trophies and getting to the top means more 'money' in all forms (better sponsors, more prize money, more fan contribution and sales). So this settling down with 4th is generally associated with skint clubs, what Pool/Arse used to be.

Also blaming the transfer committee for all the poor signings is not a black and white thing. Fred for example, was one of the most sought after talent when we went out to procure him. Maguire had the profile to be a top CB for a low-block counter team. AWB another one who is extremely talented in shutting out people. Transfer failures are mostly 2-way streets. Mourinho was pushing the club for signing players who were at the fag end of their career and may be would do well for a season before turning into dud/old. It was right that the club denied him. I remember him leaving Inter after the treble and Benitez had to change almost the entire squad as they had aged out in less than a season (Maicon vs Bale in CL that season proved how Mourinho pushes for the now, spending millions on peaked players leaving us in a poorer position overall)

It was the same with Ole as well. His transfers didn't fail solely because of the transfer committee. A top no 9 would have been Halaand, and Ole couldn't lure him as things were complicated becos of Raiola (RIP). We had to settle with Cavani. Mbappe/Lewa weren't going to play for Ole not in a million years. He had no idea how to fit in the other "buys" making them look like failures, but in fact these very same players are not even been utilized to a tenth of their abilities due to bad tactics and coaching.

The point is with a Good manager, there is direction on and off the field. The transfer committee knows whom to get and any failings then can be rightly associated with them. Glazers and all other owners with money know very well that the best way to improve the business is not to settle for 4th but to build the team to WIN.
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Great Post.

Although I despise them for saddling the club with their debt, they have been giving enough money for transfers and wages over the years.

The problem has been poor footballing decisions, not tightness.
 
m1tch said:
Spot on. How mad is it though that I immediately thought "it's a bit harsh to lump Fellaini in with those two", but I realised your point would have been more to do with the actual transfer and not the output on the pitch.
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Game lad but never a United player.
 
Olecurls99 said:
Game lad but never a United player.
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Yeah 100%, think he gave us a lot more than Sanchez (who had the talent - certainly at some time in his career) and Maguire (less said the better right now I think!).
 
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