Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Marwood]

Fault? the failures of the club over the last 10 years is a collective, United were paying over the odds for players long before EtH even arrived.

But that's part of the reason we got ETH, to change what's been happening previously.

Why couldn't ETH have said "no, I'm not spending half my budget on Antony."

He's better placed than anyone else at the club to make that call given he's worked with Antony before. Given he's likely the only reason we're after Antony in the first place.

 

[Captmfla]

Without ETH, Ajax finished 3rd last season and is now in relegation zone! Goes to show how important ETH is!

 

[Robbie Boy]

Excellent points Klopp should be the only relative example for a manager at United to make incremental improvements. The rhetoric that sacking underperforming managers is wrong is interesting given the prospective careers of the managers that were sacked their continuation at other clubs didn't exactly prove the decision wrong of a termination and dismissal.

The only manager I feel interpersonally that was sacked prematurely was LVG who to this date was the most successful at imposing a style that the club could persist with the issue was the team was toothless in that approach but it's better than the disjointedness of what ETH is currently proposing and his recent quotes are the evidence of why this team looks so poor outside of a 20 minute window in the first half.

I think the vast majority would welcome a new manager once we change our whole sporting structure. Klopp had a fantastic structure in place at Liverpool and Michael Edwards struck gold with plenty of the early targets he identified.

I, for one, think that as fans we obsess far too much over who our manager is and get too emotionally invested in them. I would rather we had a world class footballing structure in place that identifies a specific criteria of manager and player for the club, with a very clear vision in place. This would enable our managers to act more as coaches and drill a playstyle into the players.

The current structure we have is a fecking mess; we've gone through a tonne of poor managers and players - while spending close to a billion quid - and had zero discernible success to show for it. Sacking ETH now, and operating as we have been doing for the past decade, likely will lead to the same failures. For what it's worth; I think as fans we've been far too passive with most managers and given them way too much slack.

 

[GaryLifo]

What if we lose against Newcastle? How many games will he get after that?

When, not if....

 

[acid_fuji]

I don't think United should get rid of Ten Hag right now.

But the situation is pretty bad. Even if Ten Hag can turn it around, the odds that he can achieve this season's objectives are already very low.

Absolutely, the objectives right mown are out of questions if the injuries continues (I have faith that they will kick off once they’re back).

People say we don’t have a style and while we indeed can’t see something very clear there are some good things to observe. I believe he was very pragramtic last season and tried to force the idea from the beginning of this one but as it happen last year the personel did not managed to do that.

People also take too much of what he’s saying about the style of play. He’s trying to implement more direct style of football but that does not mean he does not want to play good in possession. If it’s going to be something similar to what Klopp is doing then I’m all in.

People are dropping ideas here about “how we brought him for this and that”. No one knows actually what were the discussion. Can’t believe that almost all people here think they know more about football than him (few might).

The only thing what piss me off is playing rashford/Bruno out of form which then puts them in position of being heavily criticized (rightly so)

 

[Judas]

I think we’ll scrape a win tonight, but fail to beat Fulham on Saturday.

 

[VP89]

Based on his time at Ajax, of which he said we will never achieve. He's not even trying it based on how this season is going.

He showed at Ajax he can tweak his tactics and style somewhat. I agree it was based on the same philosophy though.

I dont think him wanting more direct style at United is a bad thing. And I don't think it reduces his credibility either.

 

[wolvored]

TH wont be sacked until Ratcliffe arrives I reckon. I would imagine he may want his own man in and wont want another manager after TH, he hasnt had any input in getting. Also how much it would cost to sack him, the parasites wont want to shell out.

 

[Captmfla]

Ajax has Dusan Tadic. This guy is almost Cr7 level at holland. Now see where Ajax is without Tadic?

So ETH needs Tadic.

 

[VP89]

I see nothing "current" from the style Ten Hag employs here. He said himself that he doesn't plan to make us play like Ajax. We're playing hoofball, as bad as the lows during Ole's reign.

I'm not after a series of new manage bounces. I'm after a manager who knows what he's doing and only failing that, I'm looking for new manager bounces. Ten Hag has not got me convinced in the slightest that he knows what he is doing. The transfers, the tactics, the starting line-ups, the subs, the quality of football... they all scream "clueless" and "desperate". You're saying we will not rebuild successfully if we don't persist with a manager. I say entrusting managers to "rebuild" is a fool's hope and that there is nothing more harmful than persisting with a bad manager who is failing to even get the basics right and is losing the dressing room.

Are you really telling me you're willing to entrust ETH with even more money and another couple of years based on what you've seen the last 8 months, since the Carabao final? Because so far, all I've seen from him is that new manager bounce in the first half of last season. Since February onwards it's just getting worse and worse. Our GD in the league is only +2 since Feb this year. We've been a midtable club coasting on a good 5 months from Sept to Feb last season.

We aren't playing hoofball. We are certainly disjointed and not playing without confidence on the ball, but our game plan going into games Is certainly not hoofball.

With respect I didn't read the rest of the post because I'm tired of lazy exaggerations where anything outside of sexy ajax football has to suddenly be hoof ball.

 

[RuudTom83]

@Marwood

Yeah the Antony and Mount signings will probably be the ones that kill him.

It's been mentioned but the Antony signing came after 2 loses, so there was an element of panic, which is never a good thing.

But it comes down to where you personally put the blame, and I share the blame between the manager and the board. Plus Antony can take some blame as well because he underperformed since arriving.

If other fans just want to solely blame EtH then I can understand that, its just a different opinion to mine.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

No, the thesis is, Ten Hag was among the best if, not the best candidates to take charge at the time as he ticked virtually every box we wanted.

It's possible, even likely, that the people who picked Ten Hag and who found him to tick "virtually every box they wanted" did a bad job at hiring. It's not like they have a good track record of doing so.

 

[Smithy89]

The players and board haven't helped him, but he's clearly out of his depth. The fact he can't stick to his footballing principles is embarrassing, man was the dutch Pep at Ajax and now he's turned into the dutch Pardew.

 

[MadMike]

See the video in post #56615 in this thread. If you can’t stomach the whole thing, watch the last 4-5 minutes or so.

The motivation to sack seems to come from a deluded idea that we are at the same level as Real, Barca, Bayern - we should be but we aren’t, we are very far below them. The approach here has to be different at the moment. If we ever do get back to being a top force with a coherent, deep squad, good structures etc, then yes, managers who don’t achieve rapid results should be sacked but to expect it now is unrealistic.

Arsenal seemed to realise that. We realised it all those years ago with SAF. The policy has to fit the present status and long-term aims of the club. We are almost unique in that way. We have to be a tier 1 serial winning club but we are nowhere near that. So there has to be a long-term plan to transition to success (as it has to be defined for us) from where we are.

It is an unpalatable truth, I know.

I've watched the whole video and had no profound realisation.

For those who can't be bothered to watch here's the summary of what they said :
a) He abandoned his style 4 games into last season
b) He signed players to suit the way he played at Ajax, but he's not even trying to play that way any more
c) He's doing the Ole style football (hoof it, then press) slightly better than Ole... but with 0 actual arguments offered as to why it's better under Ten Hag (it factually isn't).
d) Like previous managers, he's caved to the pressure of chasing short term results by doing what has somewhat worked before, not what he would like to implement.
e) United need to take short/medium term pain by trying playing the right way if it doesn't yield results at the start.

Now onto your post. No one has the "deluded idea that we are at the same level as Real" that's a complete strawman, argument. Secondly there are 0 compelling arguments made in your post or in the video to keep Ten Hag.

What is the point in keeping with the manager when:
a) he can't coach the style he wants remotely well enough in pre-season to even survive the start of the season (we got absolutely battered at start of 22/23). I mean, Postecoglou has just done it
b) he changes his approach at the first sign of trouble
c) there is no structure behind the manager to identify and make the right signings and to shoulder the responsibility of the squad rebuild

I'm sorry, but what is the point of Ten Hag then? Yes, Arsenal did protect Arteta and had Edu was in charge of squad rebuild. But did Arteta change his approach to football to suit short term? And if you don't have an Edu to shoulder the rebuild, while your coach is proven to be useless with transfers, is there a point in sticking with the coach? Given the lack of a decent football structure, what is the point of persisting with a manager who's messed up the transfers and has given up on the desired football almost immediately?

Might as well get rid to get a new manager bounce and save the toxicity. And prey and hope you land a manager who might manage to instil the right style in a time-frame ETH evidently couldn't. I think we'd all like the right structure at the top, but we have to take it as given that for now, under the Glazers, it's not happening. So again, what's the point of sticking with Ten Hag then? Just more money and time wasted, while the situation in the stands and dressing room deteriorates?

 

[VP89]

It's possible, even likely, that the people who picked Ten Hag and who found him to tick "virtually every box they wanted" did a bad job at hiring. It's not like they have a good track record of doing so.

Why would you say it's likely? Beyond even our own decision makers he was a hot pick and a genuine worry from neutrals too. Pep rated him openly, journalists who gave their two cents did, ex players were warm to him, fans were hot on him etc.

Maybe everyone was wrong. I don't find that likely though. I think the issue is that any manager will struggle for a prolonged period of they want sustained change, because our club generally is in the absolute shits.

 

[Red00012]

I feel if he had the balls to make changes like dropping Rashford / Bruno etc I think more posters would give him the benefit of the doubt . But he sticks to his favourites (granted he dropped Antony at the weekend )
Tonight is a night for resting a few and there shouldn’t be a discussion around . His favourites haven’t been playing well and it’s time to play the bench tonight .

 

[Judas]

I do find it funny how some people were complaining he stuck to his principles too much and wasn’t being flexible, and now he’s doing that it’s being used as a stick to beat him with.

 

[Smithy89]

160m on Antony and Mount and they don't get a look in, Hannibal dropped like a bad habit after a few good games in a row, Martial is fit and offers way more going forward than Rashford, Garnacho also getting shafted, Casemiro seems fed up, insists with McTominay as a DM when he makes changes mid-game, signed a ball playing goalie but reverts to long ball.

Says we can't play a certain way but has signed half the Dutch league, signed Mount, has Eriksen, and has Donny who came from Ajax. Pep, Klopp, Emery etc make their squads play their way and if they can't do it then they're gone but they commit to their philosophies and have faith and confidence in it. Klopp forced his style onto Liverpool and didn't flake once and it paid off. If you're a good coach, it'll work.

 

[erikcred]

I think the vast majority would welcome a new manager once we change our whole sporting structure. Klopp had a fantastic structure in place at Liverpool and Michael Edwards struck gold with plenty of the early targets he identified.

I, for one, think that as fans we obsess far too much over who our manager is and get too emotionally invested in them. I would rather we had a world class footballing structure in place that identifies a specific criteria of manager and player for the club, with a very clear vision in place. This would enable our managers to act more as coaches and drill a playstyle into the players.

The current structure we have is a fecking mess; we've gone through a tonne of poor managers and players - while spending close to a billion quid - and had zero discernible success to show for it. Sacking ETH now, and operating as we have been doing for the past decade, likely will lead to the same failures. For what it's worth; I think as fans we've been far too passive with most managers and given them way too much slack.

Good post. We definitely cut our managers too much slack with putting most of the blame on the owners.

Plus when we talk about Klopp having a fantastic structure in place, we should remember that Klopp also took a near-bankrupt club at Dortmund and he turned them into BL champions and CL contenders.

The only reason Klopp needed a near-perfect set up at Liverpool was because you can't beat a doped up club otherwise. But if the objective was to put Liverpool firmly in top-4 and regularly make deep runs in the CL (a bar that's proved too high for all our recent managers), his Dortmund record suggests he'd probably have done it even without Michael Edwards.

 

[MadMike]

I do find it funny how some people were complaining he stuck to his principles too much and wasn’t being flexible, and now he’s doing that it’s being used as a stick to beat him with.

Unless it's the same people and you can quote them, I don't see the point in your post. Different people will have different opinions, shocker.

 

[crossy1686]

Out of all of them the closest could be Mourinho, given he propelled us to 80 plus points before we gave up on him.

But I think ten hag is closest because he's more current to the style required and he ticks the right boxes.

If you're after a series of new manager bounces that fulfil nothing as a supporter than that's your perogative. I'm saying that's not the way we will rebuild successfully, regardless of who is at the helm.

Ten Hag himself just said that he will never play the Ajax style with United because of the players, which are mostly players he’s brought to the club or that have arrived during his time here.

He’s already started trying to cover his arse with comments like that (it’s not me, it’s you) because he knows that loads of people are going to lap it up when it’s just absolute bollocks.

If he admittedly can’t do anything here that we want him to then his time is up.

 

[crossy1686]

I do find it funny how some people were complaining he stuck to his principles too much and wasn’t being flexible, and now he’s doing that it’s being used as a stick to beat him with.

I definitely complained about this last season, but were getting battered for fun and he was sending them out there super open as if to prove a point that the players aren’t good enough to do what he wants. Now he’s doing the opposite to prove this is the best he can get out of them. He’s not even trying, it’s on par with Mourinho calling the board out for not paying him a new CB.

 

[erikcred]

This is a manager that week in week out trusts players that let him down.

Your post is childish nonsense. You've no idea what they are at on the training ground.

The players need to motivate themselves to play for a team like United and take the money they are being paid.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

This type of treatment is effective for top top teams like Pep's City or Fergie's United. When you take a team of absolute winners who've suffered a shock defeat and make them listen to opposition players and fans celebrating, to ensure that they'll never want to experience this humiliation again.

Here, we've expectedly lost a match against far superior opposition, putting a performance that isn't even our worst against City in the last few years. I just don't see why this strategy from ETH is going to jolt our players into better performances. But I can definitely see how it could make things worse. That's all.

 

[VP89]

Ten Hag himself just said that he will never play the Ajax style with United because of the players, which are mostly players he’s brought to the club or that have arrived during his time here.

He’s already started trying to cover his arse with comments like that (it’s not me, it’s you) because he knows that loads of people are going to lap it up when it’s just absolute bollocks.

If he admittedly can’t do anything here that we want him to then his time is up.

We brought him here for squash buckling football and that's not limited to just his style that was seen in Ajax. Why do people work in extremes where anything outside of that Ajax style is shite or hoofball?

I also don't think he meant never in the literal sense. He probably would plan to in the longer term but likely never this season. How can he with the squad available? He needs a few windows to sort that out, not just two.

 

[Smithy89]

We brought him here for squash buckling football and that's not limited to just his style that was seen in Ajax. Why do people work in extremes where anything outside of that Ajax style is shite or hoofball?

I also don't think he meant never in the literal sense. He probably would plan to in the longer term but likely never this season. How can he with the squad available? He needs a few windows to sort that out, not just two.

He's spent over 400m and has signed about 12 players, stop this nonsense about needing more windows so he can waste more money on dross.

 

[spiriticon]

Yeah, no more fecking windows for ETH. I am really hoping Ratcliffe will put a stop to the madness. The club should just use their scouts going forward and Ten Hag will get what he gets. If there is 'no value in the market', then there is no value in the market and he has to coach better. Not like the clusterfeck that was preseason.

As the head coach, he should be able to meld players to his philosophy and playing style through actual coaching and developing the youth systems to produce players he can use, rather than having to spend tons of money every summer.

If he fails at coaching, then we need a new coach.

 

[MadMike]

I dont think him wanting more direct style at United is a bad thing. And I don't think it reduces his credibility either.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if it remotely worked. But it isn't. He's evidently worse than Ole at coaching direct football.

At least Ole's transfers were more consistent with the philosophy of the football he was trying to play. A set, low-block defence and counter-attacking, direct football. Fernandes and Sancho (based on what he showed in his Dortmund days) fit the philosophy of fast break-out counters. It also suit Rashford who became pivotal during Ole's reign. Maguire and Varane with DDG behind them, were suited to the low-block.

Meanwhile ETH signs players to play dominant football, then plays a version of direct football. I don't care if that reduces his credibility to your not. He's failing to get results and failing to sign players consistent with the way he's playing.

 

[VP89]

He's spent over 400m and has signed about 12 players, stop this nonsense about needing more windows so he can waste more money on dross.

You can talk about absolute sums spent but it actually isn't much of the point when you consider the incompetence of the people spending the money.

40% of his signings are free transfers, and he would have ideally liked to offload a couple players who still start for him this season. Hes up against it, and the 400m is an inducement on the decision makers than it is on him.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The motivation to sack seems to come from a deluded idea that we are at the same level as Real, Barca, Bayern - we should be but we aren’t, we are very far below them. The approach here has to be different at the moment. If we ever do get back to being a top force with a coherent, deep squad, good structures etc, then yes, managers who don’t achieve rapid results should be sacked but to expect it now is unrealistic.

I'll offer you a different perspective as a Real Madrid fan.

The club fired managers more often back when the level was lower. Now that the level is higher, we don't. The club is more patient now, not less.

The challenge of getting to that high level, is that sometimes you have to say "this is good, but it's not going to get us where we want to be. If we want to get there, we need a change."

To me that's the problem with "long-term plans." They can become an excuse to never make that assessment. To wait until you've reached the wrong destination instead of changing course.

 

[McGrathsipan]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

This type of treatment is effective for top top teams like Pep's City or Fergie's United. When you take a team of absolute winners who've suffered a shock defeat and make them listen to opposition players and fans celebrating, to ensure that they'll never want to experience this humiliation again.

Here, we've expectedly lost a match against far superior opposition, putting a performance that isn't even our worst against City in the last few years. I just don't see why this strategy from ETH is going to jolt our players into better performances. But I can definitely see how it could make things worse. That's all.

Is it not about the big picture all the same?

We can take a loss as a blip, we lost plenty of times under SAF and thats fine - but you knew there would be a reaction. There never is with these players. Ever. Its the same again and again.
Bruno being treated like a child made to listen to the other team gloating is as childish as his Behaviour on the field as a Captain.

For me mollycoddling this bunch of underperformers needs to stop. Get them humiliated and pissed off - and I probably agree with you they wont come out fighting the next match, its not in them.
Wouldnt bother me if they all left

 

[SilentWitness]

I think I'd give him to January. See if he can turn it around and if not make a change.

 

[MadMike]

You can talk about absolute sums spent but it actually isn't much of the point when you consider the incompetence of the people spending the money.

So we agree that he's incompetent at spending money then. At least that's a start!

Next step, to concede that giving more money to people who are incompetent at spending it isn't going to make things better, only worse.

 

[DWelbz19]

1.5 years and £400m later we are basically in the same place we were at the start of ETH’s tenure, playing the same brand of football and getting similar results. Most of his signings are either out of the team, will soon need to be replaced or are just not contributing anything positive, none of the players he had here when he joined have really visibly improved, virtually no young players have been integrated properly into the first team. Assuming that all of this changes with more time is based on hope rather than evidence.

It really does just boil down to this at its core, doesn't it?

I think we will hobble into some mediocre form once we start getting players back from injury and it'll drag on until we get another battering from Liverpool whenever we play them next.

 

[Smithy89]

You can talk about absolute sums spent but it actually isn't much of the point when you consider the incompetence of the people spending the money.

40% of his signings are free transfers, and he would have ideally liked to offload a couple players who still start for him this season. Hes up against it, and the 400m is an inducement on the decision makers than it is on him.

His signings and he either doesn't use them properly or just flat out doesn't play them. The Antony signing in particular is just atrocious. The few players that are performing better are either Jose/Ole signings or academy lads.

 

[VP89]

So we agree that he's incompetent at spending money then. At least that's a start!

Next step, to concede that giving more money to people who are incompetent at spending it isn't going to make things better, only worse.

Hes not the one spending the money. Hes a manager not a director of football.

 

[RedC]

Ten Hag himself just said that he will never play the Ajax style with United because of the players, which are mostly players he’s brought to the club or that have arrived during his time here.

Who are those players? Martinez, Antony and Hojlund all completely fit his Ajax style, most of his other signings are dirt cheap or free, intended as backups.

 

[red_de_pologne]

Yeah, no more fecking windows for ETH. I am really hoping Ratcliffe will put a stop to the madness. The club should just use their scouts going forward and Ten Hag will get what he gets. If there is 'no value in the market', then there is no value in the market and he has to coach better. Not like the clusterfeck that was preseason.

As the head coach, he should be able to meld players to his philosophy and playing style through actual coaching and developing the youth systems to produce players he can use, rather than having to spend tons of money every summer.

If he fails at coaching, then we need a new coach.

Sorry, no coach in the world makes Maguire and Evans play like modern, quick, press resistant centre backs, Martinez and Shaw can play like that and they're injured. And guess what, he wanted to swap Maguire for Kim Min Jae or Todibo, and recruitment failed him and he got 35 yo Evans instead. And it's not his job to develop the youth system??

I'm baffled how people can't see it's the same players that failed under last 4 managers still playing in the first team, and think it's only the manager at fault.

 

[podurban2]

Who are those players? Martinez, Antony and Hojlund all completely fit his Ajax style, most of his other signings are dirt cheap or free, intended as backups.

Casemiro, Mount and Onana dirt cheap?

 

[MadMike]

He's not the one spending the money. He's a manager not a director of football.

Since when does the director of football choose the transfer targets at United?

You're telling me Antony, Onana, Hojlund, Mount and Amrabat (Who apart from Hojlund had all played for him before) were not his choices but Murtough's? Well damn me.

 

[VP89]

Casemiro, Mount and Onana dirt cheap?

I'd question whether Casemiro was truly his signing given the profile was so different to FdJ.

Mount and Onana I'd argue suits both the Ajax style and a more direct transition style he is hinting to try to build.