Read up on how our structure currently works. I'm getting sick and tired of debating with posters who don't bother reading up on our current (broken) way of doing things which by the way has been little to do with Ten Hag, considering he can be vetoed quite easily.Since when does the director of football choose the transfer targets at United?
You're telling me Antony, Onana, Hojlund, Mount and Amrabat were not his choices but Murtough's? Well damn me.
I'm baffled how people can't see it's the same players that failed under last 4 managers still playing in the first team, and think it's only the manager at fault.
Since when does the director of football choose the transfer targets at United?
You're telling me Antony, Onana, Hojlund, Mount and Amrabat (Who apart from Hojlund had all played for him before) were not his choices but Murtough's? Well damn me.
The desire to sack the manager is not invalid. I just don’t agree with it. But I would say that comparing us to those top clubs at the moment is mad. More helpful to compare us to Arsenal and we see a different policy there and a good outcome.
40% are free signings, and a few do need to bed in. You can argue Hojlund and Onana are actually playing a lot better than their peers in the past 3 games as they get into the rhythm and ironically happen to be two of his new signings.I don't think anyone said it's only the managers fault. But I don't think anyone said it's the same players either, you're the first. He signed 12 players and his signings are playing as bad if not worse than the players he found here.
It's inevitable that you have to sack His Stubbornness at some point, but I always feel like messing up LVG's succession was the biggest mistake in manager appointments that United made post SAF. I'll always like to compare what happened at Bayern - they were a struggling team not really better than United at the time of LVG's signing, got a structure and promoted a bunch of youth players (just like he did at United) and then had to move on at some point. And they did so by signing Heynckes who respected and kept the work LVG did and just carefully adjusted some things (essentially incorporating elements of Dortmund's counter-pressing approach and therefore allowing a bit more direct style). That won them the treble and later also ensured smooth transition to Pep taking over.
United would have needed their own version of Heynckes after LVG, but instead they just dismantled what LVG prepared the ground for and the team is suffering to this day. This was United's best chance to build towards a style the fans hope(d) EtH would bring it and it was wasted.
Sorry, no coach in the world makes Maguire and Evans play like modern, quick, press resistant centre backs, Martinez and Shaw can play like that and they're injured. And guess what, he wanted to swap Maguire for Kim Min Jae or Todibo, and recruitment failed him and he got 35 yo Evans instead. And it's not his job to develop the youth system??
I'm baffled how people can't see it's the same players that failed under last 4 managers still playing in the first team, and think it's only the manager at fault.
He's spent over 400m and has signed about 12 players, stop this nonsense about needing more windows so he can waste more money on dross.
Watzke (CEO) and Zorc (DOF) were there before Klopp, developed their vision and signed a manager they believed could pull it off (Klopp). Also crucial other parts of staff were already in place when Klopp arrived like Mislintat who was an excellent (later chief) scout. Dortmund had a fantastic structure of highly qualified people in place. He was a crucial part of the puzzle but it's not like he created the structures there.Plus when we talk about Klopp having a fantastic structure in place, we should remember that Klopp also took a near-bankrupt club at Dortmund and he turned them into BL champions and CL contenders.
Since when does the director of football choose the transfer targets at United?
You're telling me Antony, Onana, Hojlund, Mount and Amrabat (Who apart from Hojlund had all played for him before) were not his choices but Murtough's? Well damn me.
Read up on how our structure currently works. I'm getting sick and tired of debating with posters who don't bother reading up on our current (broken) way of doing things which by the way has been little to do with Ten Hag, considering he can be vetoed quite easily.
But to answer your point, he doesn't decide how much to buy players for. And he can be vetoed on signings. So if you're crying about 90m on Antony, look beyond Ten Hag alone.
Read up on how our structure currently works. I'm getting sick and tired of debating with posters who don't bother reading up on our current (broken) way of doing things which by the way has been little to do with Ten Hag, considering he can be vetoed quite easily.
But to answer your point, he doesn't decide how much to buy players for. And he can be vetoed on signings. So if you're crying about 90m on Antony, look beyond Ten Hag alone.
I think he should just point out the type of player and get a list of alternative options from the sporting director.
On Antony it's been done to death, any competent club would've gotten him at the beginning of transfer window for probably half the fee. Not his fault we waited until Ajax no longer needed to sell.
Neither does the DoF. No one goes: "I'll sign Mbappe and I'll get him for £20m". You don't get to choose the player and the price. If you want a player you pay something close to the asking price of the owning club.
I'm also getting sick of debating posters who are pretending that the choice of players is completely decoupled from the cost and that the latter is somehow the sole responsibility of the DoF. He chose to go for Antony and Mount and whether they cost a collective £100m or £150m or £200m it's still waste of money given how they performed and how they're now out of the frame of his starting XI when fit.
It's not just the money that he spent. It's that it's been badly invested because the players are either not performing, or fitting the style of football that we're playing.
No one is absolving the directors from blame, no one that I can see in this thread anyway. But his transfer choices were poor and you're advocating he be given more time and money.
Yes, that's why Klopp came running when we reached out and he referred to us positively as being like 'Disneyland'.We're the best club to manage by far. It's like Christmas every day for the managers when the fans believe they should have years and years on top money, incredible financial backing and not expect any sort of meaningful trophies or style of football. It's like winning the lottery as a manager.
Wait, did you just say the DoF doesn't help decide how much to allocate on a player (along with thee CEO) ? You'd be pretty wrong there.Neither does the DoF. No one goes: "I'll sign Mbappe and I'll get him for £20m". You don't get to choose the player and the price. If you want a player you pay something close to the asking price of the owning club.
He's been backed more than any other manager the club has had since Fergie, he told them to get rid of Ralf they did it, he said he wanted control over transfers and he got it.
Correct. And he made the play and it wasn't the right move but it also wasn't atrocious when you consider what was achieved by the team in that year. Ten Hag wouldn't have known about the limited availability this year though. We had sponsorship issues and ownership issues and FFP issues that came to light (the club was reportedly disappointed they didn't get the consideration required during the covid years I recall).He knows his budget. He knows Antony is half of it.
Wait, did you just say the DoF doesn't decide how much to allocate on a player? You'd be pretty wrong there.
Yes, that's why Klopp came running when we reached out and he referred to us positively as being like 'Disneyland'.
Then what did you say, that Ten Hag wanted to buy 90m on Antony and he had the club bent over to do it? Be clear on what the gripe is.No I didn't say that. But good attempt.
Sorry, no coach in the world makes Maguire and Evans play like modern, quick, press resistant centre backs, Martinez and Shaw can play like that and they're injured. And guess what, he wanted to swap Maguire for Kim Min Jae or Todibo, and recruitment failed him and he got 35 yo Evans instead. And it's not his job to develop the youth system??
I'm baffled how people can't see it's the same players that failed under last 4 managers still playing in the first team, and think it's only the manager at fault.
He specifically mentioned that wasn't the deal breaker for him just that timing wasn't right then , he wasn't ready to leave Dortmund when United made the approach .Yes, that's why Klopp came running when we reached out and he referred to us positively as being like 'Disneyland'.
Yes, that's why Klopp came running when we reached out and he referred to us positively as being like 'Disneyland'.
If city or Liverpool for some reason wanted to sign the exact players we had signed, do you think they would have had to spend 400 million ?
We didn’t even get that value worth of players. The manager doesn’t negotiate transfers, we have a terrible record at doing that for every manager. Why would he want Weghorst over all other potential options? This is a super club signing Ighalo and Weghorst for their managers, if happens regularly.
ETH signed Weghorst, how often does Klopp or Pep have to sign a player who was loaned out by championship side Burnley?
With some of you, it’s only on the manager. You can’t see all the other variables that make this conversation more nuanced then “he spent 400 million and failed”.
Correct. And he made the play and it wasn't the right move but it also wasn't atrocious when you consider what was achieved by the team in that year. Ten Hag wouldn't have known about the limited availability this year though. We had sponsorship issues and ownership issues and FFP issues that came to light (the club was reportedly disappointed they didn't get the consideration required during the covid years I recall).
Also I can forgive the Antony signing if the other signings are pretty good, which they were given the fees.
What kind of strawman is this, my dude? If we had spent £300m instead of £400m and were is the same shite situation as we are now, you'd think we'd be pulling any punches from criticism of the manager?
We signed players that he wanted, yet we're playing terrible football for 7 months (of football) now and we're sliding down the table. The board takes a huge part of the blame for the financial mismanagement. EVERYONE is saying that including me. But so does the manager for failing to get this team to play any style of respectable football after signing many of his personal choices.
I'm not even gonna comment on your other post about "are all these his first targets", it's a terrible attempt at deflection.
Exactly. Worse as its been reported Anthony had been scouted before and written off. Yet the club allowed ETH to sign him. The whole thing is a messIt is atrocious. No matter how the rest of the team performed that money on Antony is as bad as it gets when you've already worked with the player. That's the key difference here between Antony and a signing like Pepe. The manager knew all about the player and was still fine with half his budget going on him.
What kind of strawman is this, my dude? If we had spent £300m instead of £400m and were is the same shite situation as we are now, you'd think we'd be pulling any punches from criticism of the manager?
We signed players that he wanted, yet we're playing terrible football for 7 months (of football) now and we're sliding down the table. The board takes a huge part of the blame for the financial mismanagement. EVERYONE is saying that including me. But so does the manager for failing to get this team to play any style of respectable football after signing many of his personal choices.
I'm not even gonna comment on your other post about "are all these his first targets", it's a terrible attempt at deflection.
So that's a strucural issue then.Exactly. Worse as its been reported Anthony had been scouted before and written off. Yet the club allowed ETH to sign him. The whole thing is a mess
You could write a United manager cycle before a manager joins. Same issues keep happening.
How is blaming managers going for you the last 10 years?
Yeah that’s fair comment. I don’t know if he’s right or not and the reason for watching the video is not to endorse the job EtH is doing but to appreciate why it’s not working at the moment and to hear a well expressed argument that what’s really needed is a root and branch overhaul (which takes time). EtH might not be the right guy but it’s not possible to conclude that based on what’s happening on the field at the moment.I’ve watched it (well most of it) and I don’t think it comes out with a really compelling argument supporting the quality of the job ETH has done and in many places echoes my sentiments.
I don’t think he was hired with the goal of being maybe slightly better than Ole at playing the same brand of football, nor do I think he’s capable of turning us into a different, better team.
Ultimately I think his recruitment has let him down and brought him to a point where I don’t see how this finishes well.
I do strongly agree with the concept of having a manager here that can bring long term change and would gladly support him through growing pains. If what we were seeing right now was a team full of young players who can build a foundation for the future, playing different brand of football to what we already know doesn’t work in the long run, and shrewd, well though gradual improvements to the team that can support this growth, I wouldn’t actually mind a season or two of poor results. This seasons issues are not about results as they haven’t even been that terrible, we are still relatively close to top 5.
However what we have seen for virtually entirety of this season is the same group of players, that I am absolutely certain will not improve much, putting in the same performances. We got players like Mejbri coming in, playing well and then being sent back to obscurity by McTominay and Eriksen. We have Rashford badly out of form and Garnacho getting 15 minutes a game. We got Bruno struggling and a £55m younger signing that could potentially at least try to temporarily fill in for him glued to the bench and then coming on to play in unfamiliar position. There’s very little that has happened in the last 3 months that has given me any sense of long term direction. It all screams desperation and short term fix.
I just don’t think ETH is the one to trust with the rebuild. I don’t think he has the talent, the knowledge, the tools to make it happen. I was very much in favor of appointing him and was impressed with some of the performances we were able to put together last season but he has shown to be lacking in so many areas since (it’s not just this season but also the second half of last year) that my belief in him is completely gone.
I fear the longer we persist and the more money we give him to buy his players on top of what he has already got, it just puts him us further and further behind. The signings we have made under him have set us back more than any other manager.
The romanticism of Fergie and the concept that any, literally any manager will come good if they are given plenty of time is only going to set us back further. There are managers who are worth giving time but ETH is not one of them.
Then what did you say, that Ten Hag wanted to buy 90m on Antony and he had the club bent over to do it? Be clear on what the gripe is.
That’s another way to look at it, yes.I'll offer you a different perspective as a Real Madrid fan.
The club fired managers more often back when the level was lower. Now that the level is higher, we don't. The club is more patient now, not less.
The challenge of getting to that high level, is that sometimes you have to say "this is good, but it's not going to get us where we want to be. If we want to get there, we need a change."
To me that's the problem with "long-term plans." They can become an excuse to never make that assessment. To wait until you've reached the wrong destination instead of changing course.
Onana completely fits the Ajax style, so there's another one for the list. That leaves Casemiro and Mount, Ten Hag clearly thinks he can mould Mount into a certain player, so that essentially leaves Casemiro as someone he's bought for a considerably amount that doesn't really fit.Casemiro, Mount and Onana dirt cheap?
You could write a United manager cycle before a manager joins. Same issues keep happening.
How is blaming managers going for you the last 10 years?
I disagree with this and the underlying sentiment.I've watched the whole video and had no profound realisation.
For those who can't be bothered to watch here's the summary of what they said :
a) He abandoned his style 4 games into last season
b) He signed players to suit the way he played at Ajax, but he's not even trying to play that way any more
c) He's doing the Ole style football (hoof it, then press) slightly better than Ole... but with 0 actual arguments offered as to why it's better under Ten Hag (it factually isn't).
d) Like previous managers, he's caved to the pressure of chasing short term results by doing what has somewhat worked before, not what he would like to implement.
e) United need to take short/medium term pain by trying playing the right way if it doesn't yield results at the start.
Now onto your post. No one has the "deluded idea that we are at the same level as Real" that's a complete strawman, argument. Secondly there are 0 compelling arguments made in your post or in the video to keep Ten Hag.
What is the point in keeping with the manager when:
a) he can't coach the style he wants remotely well enough in pre-season to even survive the start of the season (we got absolutely battered at start of 22/23). I mean, Postecoglou has just done it
b) he changes his approach at the first sign of trouble
c) there is no structure behind the manager to identify and make the right signings and to shoulder the responsibility of the squad rebuild
I'm sorry, but what is the point of Ten Hag then? Yes, Arsenal did protect Arteta and had Edu was in charge of squad rebuild. But did Arteta change his approach to football to suit short term? And if you don't have an Edu to shoulder the rebuild, while your coach is proven to be useless with transfers, is there a point in sticking with the coach? Given the lack of a decent football structure, what is the point of persisting with a manager who's messed up the transfers and has given up on the desired football almost immediately?
Might as well get rid to get a new manager bounce and save the toxicity. And prey and hope you land a manager who might manage to instil the right style in a time-frame ETH evidently couldn't. I think we'd all like the right structure at the top, but we have to take it as given that for now, under the Glazers, it's not happening. So again, what's the point of sticking with Ten Hag then? Just more money and time wasted, while the situation in the stands and dressing room deteriorates?
So if you recall the saga, Antony was a name early on. And reportedly the price wasn't always as high as it was. Our incompetence in pursuing targets led us to chasing him to the end of the window, where his price was higher. Also ten hags decision making at that time is probably "well yes feck it il take him, given the windows about to close anyway".The main gripe for that scenario, is that he chose to sign Antony. He's a very limited player with a bad temperament to boot. His ability to judge players who can make it at this level is immediately extremely suspect.
The second is that he sanctioned the buy, considering the cost. He would have been told how much Ajax were asking for and what huge a part of his budget he would be. He shares that responsibility with the DoF who signed it off, of course. But let's not act that he wasn't made aware of the cost and doesn't share part of the blame for the expenditure. At some point the DoF would have certainly told him "Ajax are holding out for 90m, are you sure this lad is worth it or should we go for another option? This will impact how much we can spend on other players".
In another club the DoF would identify the players and Antony would not have even entered the discussion, never mind for 90m. But at United, managers get big say over the transfers. That means the players and their cost are partly their responsibility.
