We just wait for the full team to be fit and then the excuses will die.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I need to watch the interview properly. I think he said he brought mount on to BE offensive rather than say they were successfully more offensive.
In any case I'm not bothered by the words, he's not exactly going to come out and say we suck balls.
I think ETH is trying to change things with personnel but is stubbornly persistent with his formation. When I saw we were set up exactly like City it was obviously they would play through us, especially with the players available. Why not play a different way?
Would it have been crazy to play 5-3-2? I appreciate that we would lose our wing threat but we are hardly flying in those areas anyway. We could have played Maguire, Evans and Varane/Lindelof with Dalot and Reguilon pushing forward. We could potentially have dealt with the overload on Dalot's side with an extra defender and had players ahead to play the ball to. The whole game yesterday when playing out from the back died in the centre of the park from the most half-hearted press. If we had McTom, Amrabat and Fernandes to take the ball and then possibly hold it up enough to cause some trouble.
Would it work? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But trying to go toe to toe with the best team in Europe with the players we have is just stupid. We need to think of different ways to approach games with the players we have, even if some of our results are ugly and boring until we can transition into the team we want to be.
Would it have been crazy to play 5-3-2? I appreciate that we would lose our wing threat but we are hardly flying in those areas anyway. We could have played Maguire, Evans and Varane/Lindelof with Dalot and Reguilon pushing forward. We could potentially have dealt with the overload on Dalot's side with an extra defender and had players ahead to play the ball to. The whole game yesterday when playing out from the back died in the centre of the park from the most half-hearted press. If we had McTom, Amrabat and Fernandes to take the ball and then possibly hold it up enough to cause some trouble.
Would it work? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But trying to go toe to toe with the best team in Europe with the players we have is just stupid. We need to think of different ways to approach games with the players we have, even if some of our results are ugly and boring until we can transition into the team we want to be.
The logic works perfectly well, it's why CVs are a thing. In any line of work in the world, you need to be able to demonstrate you have the skills and experience necessary to do the job, by pointing to situations in your career that offer examples of you showing those skills and gaining that experience.
ETH was not an unknown quantity at all, he had achievements at Ajax that suggested he would be a good fit - he achieved success in an environment that expected success, despite not having had that success previously, with a proactive style of football. Managerial sackings aren't the random trigger pull you make them out to be, they're more often made with an eye on succession and what replacements are available.
He should. Because he knew he had limited budget to get players he wanted. And transfer fee is a big part of it.
Comparing us to probably the best side in the world isn't fair
Except we already know he does because he's already said himself it's a 50/50 decision between him and Murtough.
Which in reality translates to ETH deciding the transfer targets and Murtough having a veto power that he's too spineless to use.
They're both equally culpable but one of them is actively shit at signing the right player while the other is apathetic
Managers do not negotiate transfer fees, please stop this nonsense.
Its pretty clear that the issue is between both the manager and Murtough
Not at all, I just think that one is ludicrous given the evidence.
You are talking nonsense. By the way, if you read the conversation I am saying both have responsibility and blame, whilst @Isotope is saying it is all ETH.
Anyway 50/50 decision is on targets/positions only, not the process of signing the players and for how much (which quite obviously then affects what can be achieved)
The recruitment team start of summer would have agreed with the manager what they feel is achievable in terms of budgets etc. If they end up spending more for players than originally anticipated (as is the case with most of our signings) that then effects the other signings on the list.
We have seen this play out every summer. If they also fail to shift players the manager asks to be sold to fund upgrades and signings, that also has an effect on what can be achieved.
In that sense, you then start to have to making compromises on target etc
There is a clear and obvious issue with recruitment at the club and it extends way beyond whoever the manager is (by the way previous managers have said this exact thing)
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ETH had an unknown quantity. He had never managed in a top league. Whether he'd succeed in one or not was an open question.
Sorry but this is really not up for debate. Being a known quantity in this context is 'having done a similar job.' He absolutely hadn't.
He could've chosen a different target than Antony like our scouts recommended. Or not prioritize Mount.
You're right, I'm sure we earmarked Antony at £90m, Mount at £55m and Martinez at £50m long before Ten Hag arrived. I bet we would have signed them regardless...
We're still blaming managers for transfer windows...
100% agreed to this. I should clarify that the fault is NOT 100% on EtH. Although for the type of players, priorities to spend, and positions to get are still 100% on him.
Didnt they hate Ralf making them train late afternoon aswell?
You cant detach setting transfer targets with their fees.
Does any new manager other than ETH agree to spend £85m on Antony in their first summer? Hell no.
Was any other club interested in spending anything north of £30m on Mount last summer? Hell no.
Agree, by the way though, who did our scouts recommend? Didn't we sign Antony very last in the transfer window, how comes we didn't sign a RW all summer since our scouts recommended such great RW signings?
Think you will find as reported, ETH was happy for the club to sign alternatives which is part of the reason we didn't sign Antony early in the window for a much reduced fee, the club failed to sign a RW and so we then had to scramble and sign Antony last minute for a crazy fee.
Mount was a poor signing. No issues with proportioning blame to all parties for that.
I’m not ETH out. It’s not looking good but there are mitigating circumstances and he still (just) has some credit in the bank. i’m just suspicious of a very enthusiastic newbie sounding like a parody of a backward looking United fan.
There's nothing really to cling on to is there? Our players all look confused about their roles in the team, only one player in our expensively assembled attack has scored a goal in the league, all of the signings have been poor, the tactics are a mess and the team selections and subs are getting more baffling with each game. Not long now until a 4-1 Watford level crisis.
If Murtough vetoed Ten Hag's targets what would you say? What would the media say?
For me it's getting scary how much he's reliant on a new, fast CB. I give him a ton of leeway on not playing with any great modern styling when I'm not sure I've ever seen as slow a back 4 as Sunday. That forces you so deep, and disconnects everything.
Shaw and AWB are miles faster than Dalot and Lindelof, and most traffic cones are quicker than Evans/Maguire.
If we get players back and still can't change the style, then I'll be truly ETH out. For a while last season we were pretty good, after all.
Shaw and AWB are miles faster than Dalot and Lindelof, and most traffic cones are quicker than Evans/Maguire.
If we get players back and still can't change the style, then I'll be truly ETH out. For a while last season we were pretty good, after all.
You are conflating matters.
The club signed Antony last minute after failing to sign ETH a RW all summer. And as I keep saying the manager does not get involved in fees.
I said this the other week. I bet he's dialled down training due to the injuries and that's why we look so out of sorts in games. They're probably just doing keepy-uppys and watching videos in training until his favourite 11 are back fit.
Who's responsibility is it to find players that the manager wants in his team?
Dropping out of form players should be an easy decision for him now. But unfortunately, given the situation we are in, he will stick with the same ones and hope somehow we can string 2-3 victories together.
You don't get to be the arbiter of what's up for debate, when moving goalposts around like this and assigning your own definitions as to what's known or unknown.
There's no such thing as an entirely known quantity, short of someone who's already managed this poorly run Man Utd. Failing that, we have to look at what experience they've had, what skills they've demonstrated, and how that could translate to the United job. In Ten Hag's case, he demonstrated a lot of the skills and experience we were looking for. It was in a lesser league, I agree, but the potential was there. Nobody in the world is hired as an unknown quantity, that's what CVs, interviews, and references are for.
The lengths people will go to in order to justify wanting a manager sacked without any idea who to replace him with is mind boggling - if that effort went into actually thinking about a replacement we'd probably have some pretty sensible suggestions rather than a threat full of reactionary "ETH out, literally anybody in" nonsense.
We have Fulham, Luton and Everton next. I reckon we will get at least 7 points. I'm expecting 9 and we'll settle down, get players back.
Well, that's what Murtough gets paid for, to bring success to the club. And that includes bring in the right players at the right price whatever it takes (include overruling manager's choice).
16 minute is nail on the head for some whingers in here.
You can't rebuild a club of our stature and complexity on the pitch in a short term. And we are stuck always looking to fix ourselves short term to manage the next fixture. This predates ten hag.
You have to suffer if you want a long term fix. So deal with it.
His job is to back the manager and if he didn't you'd all lose your shit that the Glazers stooges are keeping their grubby mitts on the money. I'm sure there were many chats with Ten Hag about the price of the players they were signing and how much budget would be left after doing so, Ten Hag went ahead with those buys anyway because his knowledge of any other league is piss poor.
I dont want us to sack ETH, primarily because we have seen the same issues under multiple managers and things never seem to improve. When 4 managers have had the same problems if cant be just manager, it has to be factors beyond just them. Arteta had a horrid couple of seasons, yet he was backed and was allowed to bin some big names. He was allowed to bring in his players, instill his policy and now see how arsenal plays. My only and biggest criticism of ETH will the Mount and Antony transfers. But again, a competent board and DOF couldve easily sorted that mess out by bringing in other options.
Pep hit the nail on the head yesterday when he said "The entire club has 1 goal and 1 ambition". They have a competent board, people who know football. They have a style of play and go get players who suit it. Any player who is distracted or fails to live upto their standards is shipped out.
In stark contrast - We have a scatter gun approach in transfers. Every new manager comes in and wants 'his' players. No direction in the market, no philosophy , no style. Just noise. We are now the noisy neighbors. Our players want to do anything BUT play football. Whenever a contract renewal is near , they suddenly find form and our fanbase laps it up. as soon as pen is put to paper - boom, same old mediocre performances.
Pep hit the nail on the head yesterday when he said "The entire club has 1 goal and 1 ambition". They have a competent board, people who know football. They have a style of play and go get players who suit it. Any player who is distracted or fails to live upto their standards is shipped out.
In stark contrast - We have a scatter gun approach in transfers. Every new manager comes in and wants 'his' players. No direction in the market, no philosophy , no style. Just noise. We are now the noisy neighbors. Our players want to do anything BUT play football. Whenever a contract renewal is near , they suddenly find form and our fanbase laps it up. as soon as pen is put to paper - boom, same old mediocre performances.
Murtoughs job isn't to blindly back the manager. Hes there to support him but veto targets which are out of reach or doesn't fit the standard.
Don't try and claim ten hag just snaps his fingers and Murtough turns up and asks "oh how should I back you sir?"
I don't think anyone would be disappointed if Murtough brought in 10 players of his own and 8 of them were ragging success, by overruling manager's choice, wouldn't we?
it's his own choice to go with manager's, so he has to take responsibility for it.
This seems a bit contradictory.
So what transfers do you think Murtough should have vetoed seeing as Ten Hag wanted these players?
We'd all lose our shit if Mourtough started spending the managers money on players he thought would improve the team and the manager didn't have a say in it.
I have no issue with this, I don't expect to challenge for top titles in the next few years, and am happy to give ETH time. One thing he absolutely can control, are tactics, and substitutions, and what we seen yesterday was genuinely worrying. he's not doing himself any favours playing mctominay as a 10, bruno out right and leaving varane on the bench to let Evans play.
Only Antony.
Im actually fine with all the others, Mount included. I think the bad transfers argument is a poor stick to beat ten hag with. But while we are using it let's not forget there is a structure needed to support the manager. And that structure doesn't mean blindly saying yes and overpaying for transfers there isn't a unanimous agreement for.
There's zero trust in the management above the manager for most United fans. If Murtough spent any of the money and the player wasn't amazing within weeks, people would want him sacked instantly so he's not going to start telling the manager who he should and shouldn't buy.
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