Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[eire-red]

I just want to see him try something different? Why not a midfield of Casemiro, Mainoo and Mount in midweek or something?

I know Casemiro has been off it too, but I think surrounded by legs and a proper CM, he still has a lot to offer the team.

Go to 433 and try something different. Drop Bruno and Rashford, get Garnacho in there for a run of games on the left, and Hannibal on the right or something.

If we see a similar starting 11 with the same absolute clowns next weekend, then EtH is digging his own grave.

 

[Theonas]

Thats fair enough but he actually got enough sway in the transfer market to change it If he really wanted to but he seemed to have taken easy way out . I had my concerns about him once Fernandes became Unstoppable for him and made captain that it was matter of time before it all comes unstuck.

I am just playing devils advocate here and in no way defending. But wouldn't he argue that in the abscene of a top class structure in terms of directors and recruitment department at the club, he just had to go for the obvious targets and just build on what we already had instead of a complete restructure as that's just not his job? He wanted De Jong when he came, when that didn't happen, the club did not have a list of similar, albeit lesser players that could come in and develop under his coaching so he might as well just went for experience and look to extract the best from what's already here. I mean I could see this being his argument and he could have a point but it would still beg the question, why did he take the job in the first place and what assurances did he demand from his bosses before taking over?

 

[In Rainbows]

The reasons that I will sack Erik is mainly transfer decisions and stubbornness. He set us back almost 400 million by benefiting his old club, agent and players. He insistence of playing Rashford, Bruno, McTominay and Lindeloft is amazing.

I wouldn't mind stubbornness if it came to playing the way he wants us too. It's the fact that he has no courage in that and is too pragmatic, thus leaving him to continue with players like McTominay. As it is, he's going to get sacked for results anyways. So he needs to stop being so scared and stop rolling back plans he originally had. Does Bruno and Rashford really fit the way Ten Hag wants? I would think not, but he persists with them because he's scared to drop them and because they used to be match winners. McTominay is what he wants in midfield? I would think not, but he keeps playing him now that McTominay won him some points by scoring.

Play youth if they're more willing to carry out instructions. Oh, but he can't because he's too scared. He needs results and surely the players he has now are giving him results. The guy has no balls.

 

[kouroux]

Klopp is/was a manager with a proven track record even before he touched down in Liverpool. His team struggling last season - after all he's already accomplished with them - is not the same as- ah nevermind

These "look at Klopp" posts don't apply to Ten Hag

Look at SAF, look at Kloop... You know it's desperation time from fans of ETH when they resort to that.

 

[ti vu]

Well, are you genuinely believing playing Varane rather than Evans could save us from this game?

We may still lose, but we may at least try to play our way whatever it is right now, like last season defeat at Etihad. We need an identity for ourselves. Right now not only we lost game, we look lost as what we're trying to play. Shite with possession, shite at pressing, shite at counter attacking, shite at wing play... Why play players who don't have future at the club when you have option?

It's not necessarily Ole-esque. Ole knew nothing else and could do nothing else. He just tried to do what Fergie did except he lacked the aura, charisma, leadership and much more. It's unclear to me why EtH says that, he seems to imply that it's about the players' profile and add the "also it's not in United DNA". It doesn't sound to me that he is married to the romance of it, more so that he feels it's the best we can do with the "material" as he puts it, we have.

The issue the material we have is not top quality to use it as first option to build the team around. Rashford is no where close to prime Ronaldo. Bruno game is too flawed and erratic.They're too individualist and lack the required team player element to build a consistent style that work on any opposition. Also he already bought some players, but they don't seem to complement the main ingredient in this material. Chemistry between Hojlund, Antony, Bruno and Rashford is questionable despite Hojlund is quite decent himself. Mount doesn't seem good fit playing with Bruno. That midfield can't be sustained by Casemiro alone.

 

[Strelok]

It pains me to say but this is why he won’t work at United. We needed someone to come in and mutate this supposed DNA of ours into something more modern. I genuinely thought we were finally getting a manager whose vision was to see us dominate the ball like Ajax, like Bayern, City etc and that the vision came first. Instead it seems he’s someone who has accepted us for what we are and is trying to make the most out of that where’s the truth is that what we have / are is nowhere remotely near what is needed achieve big things.

Tbf he gotta get results else he'll be sacked. Most of our fans are very impatient and knee jerk. Very few would give a feck about vision or possession or whatever if we don't win.

Imo the problem with his kind of football is it does take a lot of time and money to get it right. Look at how many CBs and FBs Pep bought and the time it took him for example. Or Arsenal with Arteta. People keep criticising ETH for his recruitment but tbh which manager get all his transfers right? And both City and Arsenal are much better run than us. We're a simply a mess atm.

Really hope he doesn't get sacked. Let him work on fixing our half arsed culture first. Then to implement his football. But I think he will be pretty soon if the results don't improve massively. Then we'll get a new manager and the same circles continue. Hope I'm wrong though.

 

[Theonas]

Tbf he gotta get results else he'll be sacked. Most of our fans are very impatient and knee jerk. Very few would give a feck about vision or possession or whatever if we don't win.

To be fair, I really think we're the most patient fans of an elite club in the world. If you compare us to Real, Barcelona, Barcelona or the Italian clubs, we're the friendliest club to a manager. Most of our fans would blame the players or owners a million times before looking at the manager. The scrutinizing of everything in and around the club from the UK media however is like nothing any other manager in the PL experiences.

 

[city-puma]

I just want to see him try something different? Why not a midfield of Casemiro, Mainoo and Mount in midweek or something?

I know Casemiro has been off it too, but I think surrounded by legs and a proper CM, he still has a lot to offer the team.

Go to 433 and try something different. Drop Bruno and Rashford, get Garnacho in there for a run of games on the left, and Hannibal on the right or something.

If we see a similar starting 11 with the same absolute clowns next weekend, then EtH is digging his own grave.

McT gets plenty of sticks here, but playing him behind the CF could eventually turn out to be the masterpiece ETH made. We now lack the ball progression from the back and transit to high line.

 

[mav_9me]

It's not necessarily Ole-esque. Ole knew nothing else and could do nothing else. He just tried to do what Fergie did except he lacked the aura, charisma, leadership and much more. It's unclear to me why EtH says that, he seems to imply that it's about the players' profile and add the "also it's not in United DNA". It doesn't sound to me that he is married to the romance of it, more so that he feels it's the best we can do with the "material" as he puts it, we have.

He has had 2 windows to work towards his style, to get his material in, like Martinez, Onana, Antony. Why get them and then play like this....I don't get it

 

[Strelok]

To be fair, I really think we're the most patient fans of an elite club in the world. If you compare us to Real, Barcelona, Barcelona or the Italian clubs, we're the friendliest club to a manager. Most of our fans would blame the players or owners a million times before looking at the manager. The scrutinizing of everything in and around the club from the UK media however is like nothing any other manager in the PL experiences.

I'd agree with you. But Real and Barcelona have a quite different circumstance imo. They're basically the only two giants in Liga. The money they get are massively bigger than what the rest get. And yeah agree the media involved is also very different.

Imo Pep and Klopp were very wise to refuse us. Tbh my feeling is even if we managed to get them here nothing would have changed.

 

[mav_9me]

Tbf he gotta get results else he'll be sacked. Most of our fans are very impatient and knee jerk. Very few would give a feck about vision or possession or whatever if we don't win.

Imo the problem with his kind of football is it does take a lot of time and money to get it right. Look at how many CBs and FBs Pep bought and the time it took him for example. Or Arsenal with Arteta. People keep criticising ETH for his recruitment but tbh which manager get all his transfers right? And both City and Arsenal are much better run than us. We're a simply a mess atm.

Really hope he doesn't get sacked. Let him work on fixing our half arsed culture first. Then to implement his football. But I think he will be pretty soon if the results don't improve massively. Then we'll get a new manager and the same circles continue. Hope I'm wrong though.

True. But right now what's worse is not the results but the fact we look like we don't have a clue on the pitch.

 

[Theonas]

He has had 2 windows to work towards his style, to get his material in, like Martinez, Onana, Antony. Why get them and then play like this....I don't get it

As I wrote in my previous post, what if his argument is that in the abscence of a competent team that handles recruitment, he is forced to fall back on obvious targets. If a company hires me to lead it and I find out their recruitment is subpar and doesn't provide me with a good list of candidates, I would just call on my contacts and make do with whoever I can get because what else do you do when it's not your job to hire and you have to hire? I think we can all agree that recruiting and identifying recruits is not something a modern coach should be expected to do.

 

[Irwin99]

It pains me to say but this is why he won’t work at United. We needed someone to come in and mutate this supposed DNA of ours into something more modern. I genuinely thought we were finally getting a manager whose vision was to see us dominate the ball like Ajax, like Bayern, City etc and that the vision came first. Instead it seems he’s someone who has accepted us for what we are and is trying to make the most out of that where’s the truth is that what we have / are is nowhere remotely near what is needed achieve big things.

It feels so weird to see another manager play to this "United DNA" stuff. It was alleged that Jose wrote a letter to the United hierarchy saying his football principles didn't contradict United's history and i remember him saying he could play Mata at United because we have to play more attacking football than Chelsea who used Oscar as their number 10 (that was typical Jose BS I know). We all know about Ole's philosophy, Moyes seemed to be absolutely overawed by United and following Sir Alex. Other than LVG- who everyone hated- no manager seems to be offering much in the way of a system or implementing change.

The players 'dictating the style' comment I get. The club isn't going to sell Bruno, Rashford etc and we have a hard enough time getting rid of Maguire and McTominay. But why bother with EtH in the first place if he wasn't going to implement the style of football he had success with?

 

[Theonas]

Imo Pep and Klopp were very wise to refuse us. Tbh my feeling is even if we managed to get them here nothing would have changed.

They're modern and successful managers. Like we saw with Nagelsmann recently, they ask as much from the club as the club asks of them. They want to make sure they have the structure that supports them before they commit themselves and why wouldn't they. They had the chance to join us but felt they couldn't succeed here. Makes you wonder if EtH was just too grateful because he didn't have their CV or too confident to think he can work around it, or misled by false promises.

 

[Strelok]

Makes you wonder if EtH was just too grateful because he didn't have their CV or too confident to think he can work around it, or misled by false promises.

Probably all of those.

True. But right now what's worse is not the results but the fact we look like we don't have a clue on the pitch.

Watching us atm make me feel pretty much like watching Arsenal a couple seasons ago. Clueless and a massive mess where not a single player has an idea what he's supposed to do. I'm saying this not to say ETH might change it around like Arteta has. Back then tbh I thought Arteta would never make it there and he'd get sacked very soon. But this kind of football will look like that if you don't do it right.

That's probably the biggest reason why I'd like to give ETH some more time (and money of course) to see where this would go. Getting a new manager with the same approach won't do us anything. It'll look the same none even Pep would make us tick now. And a new manager with a different approach will mean another wholesales of players. We have had enough of that shit in the last 10 years I think.

 

[Blood Mage]

Doing an impressively bad job this season. Drastically wrong in pretty much every decision and absolutely terrible coaching by the looks of it. He's imploded at this point unfortunately and I'm not sure it's salvageable anymore.

I like the bloke and I really didn't want things to go this way but it's just getting worse and worse. This might be the poorest I've seen us this decade. Well tied with Rangnick at least.

 

[In Rainbows]

Really hope he doesn't get sacked. Let him work on fixing our half arsed culture first. Then to implement his football. But I think he will be pretty soon if the results don't improve massively. Then we'll get a new manager and the same circles continue. Hope I'm wrong though.

In an ideal world I agree with you, but how is he supposed to solve that issue if he keeps playing the players who continue to not carry out instructions, or that are not performing? You have to at least threaten them by inserting young players, but he is too scared to do that.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

[QUOTE="Irwin99, post: 31274549, member:
It feels so weird to see another manager play to this "United DNA" stuff. It was alleged that Jose wrote a letter to the United hierarchy saying his football principles didn't contradict United's history and i remember him saying he could play Mata at United because we have to play more attacking football than Chelsea who used Oscar as their number 10 (that was typical Jose BS I know). We all know about Ole's philosophy, Moyes seemed to be absolutely overawed by United and following Sir Alex. Other than LVG- who everyone hated- no manager seems to be offering much in the way of a system or implementing change.

The players 'dictating the style' comment I get. The club isn't going to sell Bruno, Rashford etc and we have a hard enough time getting rid of Maguire and McTominay. But why bother with EtH in the first place if he wasn't going to implement the style of football he had success with?
[/QUOTE]
Hopefully it’s just an ETH thing as if it’s a club directive then we are even more fecked as every manager will have bend the knee to our incompetence.

 

[mu4c_20le]

As I wrote in my previous post, what if his argument is that in the abscence of a competent team that handles recruitment, he is forced to fall back on obvious targets. If a company hires me to lead it and I find out their recruitment is subpar and doesn't provide me with a good list of candidates, I would just call on my contacts and make do with whoever I can get because what else do you do when it's not your job to hire and you have to hire? I think we can all agree that recruiting and identifying recruits is not something a modern coach should be expected to do.

We really need to stop comparing our mundane lives with people in football.

Here Rodgers sheds some light on how the DoF works. It's different in every country.

"In Europe it happens a lot, where the director of football, along with his scouting team, will pick the players and the manager will manage and coach them.

"It's always been a wee bit more difficult to implement in Britain, purely because the notion here is that the manager is the one who has the eye for the players and can manage the players, and if you bring in a manager, you put the trust in him to develop them and choose players that fit the way you want to play. That's not to say it doesn't work, it just depends on the structures at the club.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/39011014.amp

That's how it always works. Brighton and probably City are the outliers.

 

[ElCholo]

It should be a ban to mention SAF and ETH in the same sentence

Thank you. I am not United fan, but in Argentina we respected "big man".
Can't imagine how he feels looking at his empire getting destroyed

 

[Theonas]

We really need to stop comparing our mundane lives with people in football.

Here Rodgers sheds some light on how the DoF works. It's different in every country.



https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/39011014.amp

That's how it always works. Brighton and probably City are the outliers.

I really think you live in a different reality if you believe the big clubs in England ask or allow their managers to handle the recruitment. It’s maybe 20 years now since that started to change.

 

[sglowrider]

A lot of it's relative to expectations as well.

With Jose the expectations were sky high. Much much higher than ETH has had to deal with. Losing to Sevilla in the CL was 10 nails in the coffin for Jose. Water off a ducks back for Ole and ETH.

Mourinho's best team would have kicked the current lot off the pitch, even during our best period under Erik. But same as this one, the squad was built on a bad foundation with past-it players and dodgy characters.

Was peak ETH just that one match against Barca or was there like a streak of games? I really don't remember any more. Seems like we have been playing limp, insipid football for so long I barely remember a time when we were good.

 

[christy87]

No, but there's absolutely no reason Evans should ever play ahead of Varane in an important game if the latter is fit.

100%, knowing ETH Varane probably said something he didn’t like and he dropped him.

as for the style of play you can mould players into a style look at Henderson at Liverpool, a good manager will set players up to succeed by playing to their strengths, then there’s ETH moving our most influential player around like a pawn on a chess board and that’s what Bruno has become a pawn a shadow of his real self, wouldn’t blame him if he left for a club like Bayern looking to win trophies, he has made him into the new Pogba(let’s blame him)

 

[ElCholo]

He is gone, your lot is already calling another agents and managers.
Simeone told them what he did last time.
He ain't leaving club in the middle of sessaon and he wants free reign to drop any player who is underperforming.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I really think you live in a different reality if you believe the big clubs in England ask or allow their managers to handle the recruitment. It’s maybe 20 years now since that started to change.

Not as primitive as our setup obviously, but the managers in the UK aren't always expected to sit back, put up their feet and let everyone else do the team building.

Ps - in case it wasn't obvious enough, in not defending our structure. I just find the notion that eth or other managers cannot succeed in this environment to be absurd.

 

[ti vu]

We really need to stop comparing our mundane lives with people in football.

Here Rodgers sheds some light on how the DoF works. It's different in every country.



https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/39011014.amp

That's how it always works. Brighton and probably City are the outliers.

I don't think it's that . Brendan Rodgers was well known for his push to gain more power as the manager. Many of Liverpool's awful signing under him was due to him refused to listen to their recruitment team which later struck gold after gold under Klopp, someone who is more open to this recruitment board and head coach work relationship. He sounds quite thankful to them

Scottish, Irish, English have been stuck with the old manager model for long, and have been playing catch up, as PL teams have been transiting to that DoF head coach manager model more and more. It's unsustainable to expect manager to have all the skills to manage all aspect of the clubs.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

I genuinely can’t believe he started Maguire and Jonny Evans against Erling Haaland…

Wtf is he doing!?

 

[Strelok]

In an ideal world I agree with you, but how is he supposed to solve that issue if he keeps playing the players who continue to not carry out instructions, or that are not performing? You have to at least threaten them by inserting young players, but he is too scared to do that.

Tbh I don't think our players don't want to play for him or intentionally to not carry out his instructions. They just can't. Our younger players are pretty much from the same school with our senior players. So tbh I don't think there would be a massive change if we play the youngsters instead.

At least with the senior players we'd get their individual 'brilliant moment' because tbf those senior players are much better than our younger ones. Many fans would like to think our youngster are better than our senior players because of the hype and the 'unknown' but imo it's rather simply not true.

A player has trained for years from a very young age and that process has made what he tend to do in a certain situation became natural/ muscle instinct. The body react even before the brain does. That's why we keep seeing players keep making the same mistake/error even if they had made those in the past. Or moves that didn't work. It's very hard to fix those habits. Retraining a player into a new position usually take a year at least and the successful rate is still not very high.

Now we're talking about changing the habits of multiple players at the same time in order to play a new kind of football. Obviously it'll look like a mess. Some might make it. Some don't and we'll have to replace those. I don't know if we'd ever make it but one thing I'm sure about is it'll take time. Until then we'll unfortunately look like a mess I think.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I don't think it's that . Brendan Rodgers was well known for his push to gain more power as the manager. Many of Liverpool's awful signing under him was due to him refused to listen to their recruitment team which later struck gold after gold under Klopp, someone who is more open to this recruitment board and head coach work relationship. He sounds quite thankful to them

Scottish, Irish, English have been stuck with the old manager model for long, and have been playing catch up, as PL teams have been transiting to that DoF head coach manager model more and more. It's unsustainable to expect manager to have all the skills to manage all aspect of the clubs.

I agree it's the way forward, but many clubs aren't quite there yet. It's usually the club adapting to the manager style rather than the other way around here.

 

[sglowrider]

Play youth if they're more willing to carry out instructions. Oh, but he can't because he's too scared. He needs results and surely the players he has now are giving him results. The guy has no balls.

Thats the thing Ajax fans said about ETH. He has no Plan B


Why not play the kids? They are more likely to carry out his instructions if there are some.

Arteta's fortunes changed after the 2nd season when he got rid of the older players (albeit brought in under the first full season of his management.) He figured out that it wasn't working and decided to take a different tact.

 

[DSG]

Wow. This entire season we’ve looked like a poorly coached team. We all had hopes that ETH would take us to the next level, but we look a lot worse than last year.



At this point, I think the team needs new energy. We need to sack him.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

In an ideal world I agree with you, but how is he supposed to solve that issue if he keeps playing the players who continue to not carry out instructions, or that are not performing? You have to at least threaten them by inserting young players, but he is too scared to do that.

Instead he’s resorting to Jonny Evans ffs.

 

[ti vu]

I agree it's the way forward, but many clubs aren't quite there yet. It's usually the club adapting to the manager style rather than the other way around.

Perhaps at lower level or in different leagues. It's about half of with the like of like Arsenal, Liverpool, City, Brighton, Aston Villa, Newcastle, City, Chelsea has been transiting to. They don't merely get Premier League proven managers to find their feet like over a decade ago when their recruitment plan can get some decent managers to accept their offer when they build a decent team with the financial advantage PL has over other league.

For example, Aston Villa didn't build their team for Dean Smith or Gerrard. Their director may get it wrong with Gerrard appointment, but the team they assemble is quite decent, and getting Emery brought out more of. He didn't need to spend a year to assess the squad and build his own.

Out of desperation, clubs would depend on manager like Crystal Palace, West Ham, Everton. Unless a new SAF appears, the ceiling is not that high, so too clubs don't pretty much moved/ are moving away from that model.

Back to us, we're not exactly adapting to our manager, are we? I meant we're a big club that even supposed previous top manager like Mourinho would bemoan the sheer amount of responsibility he has shoulder our side of his main priority as first team head coach. You can't expect, Moyes to step up and fill SAF shoes. LVG to revamp the whole club in 3 years. Ole who hasn't had a proper top flight CV to become our new SAF, nor ETH coming from background with a different model to to able to do it all by himself. We make a lot of noise in the media about structure change, but evidently we're running the same by making ETH doing everything, and it seems it goes south right now.

 

[Micky Targaryen]

If I see "United way/DNA" one more time...

Apparently it's supposed to mean "Free flowing football with exciting wingplay" or some cringey bs like that.

Well guess what? It's every top club's DNA then. Win football by any means. Stop all this philosophical crap.

I'm not on rival clubs' forums, but are other fanbases like these as well? Does rival supporters keep spouting "Liverpool or City or Spurs DNA/Way" ??

 

[Pyro19]

If he doesn't drop Bruno and Rashford after these performances, Not only is he a terrible coach but he's a pussy aswell.

He literally has nothing left to lose now except his job. This is the time to try new players and new ideas. I'm afraid he knows he's already a dead man walking and is reacting appropriately

 

[In Rainbows]

Win football by any means. Stop all this philosophical crap.

He thought the league was going to be easy. We’d have been better off appointing Gary O’Neil instead of a bloke that has only ever managed in Holland.

It's the exact opposite of what you say. He's overestimated it and his pragmatism is costing him the only thing that made his coaching desirable. We hired him for the football he displayed in Holland. He's far too pragmatic to achieve it when he's indulging in players like McTominay, and refusing to not start Rashford and Bruno. Any sign of trouble and his courage is found wanting.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I wanted Ajax ball from him. Wtf is this United DNA shit. He’s basically trying to implement a style that’s even new to him. Explains a lot actually

 

[sglowrider]

If I see "United way/DNA" one more time...

Apparently it's supposed to mean "Free flowing football with exciting wingplay" or some cringey bs like that.

Well guess what? It's every top club's DNA then. Win football by any means. Stop all this philosophical crap.

I'm not on rival clubs' forums, but are other fanbases like these as well? Does rival supporters keep spouting "Liverpool or City or Spurs DNA/Way" ??

To me, the United Way is about building a club based on the academy or young players. Styles of play change like fashion but that ethos should always remain constant.

 

[Strelok]

To me, the United Way is about building a club based on the academy or young players. Styles of play change like fashion but that ethos should always remain constant.

Imo I don't think ETH was talking about that. He was talking about our football philosophy imo.

Our football has always been direct. So same goes for our recruitment and academy. Before ETH we've never recruited or taught our senior players or our youngsters to play possession football not like in Ajax or Barca or City where they've been doing that for years.

Imo he would have a much easier time to implement his football if he manages Barca or City for example instead of us.

 

[Ahmer Baig]

He doesnt play Sancho because the player did not apologize to him yet he doesnt drop Rashford and Bruno for being piss poor. If he wants to be a hard man he should be with all the players and not pick and choose. And also when has he criticized referees for wrong decisions going against the team. Look at Liverpool and Klopp and the hue and cry they raised and now they dont get decisions against them.