Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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crossy1686 said:
Talent isn't a tangible metric, what exactly is talent? A combination of measurable metrics we call 'talent' to simplify, and that includes mentality.

They're scared to try stuff because they're scared of getting scrutinized by the fans, media and probably the manager. It's a fundamental mentality issue.
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I think its possible to overthink football and asking "what is talent" is maybe that.

I'd believe it was mentality if these players had proved beforehand they're capable of dominating the opposition. But the vast majority haven't.

Think you're right confidence to try stuff is low right now but the problems these players have right now have always been there. It isn't a temporary mentality issue.
 
More I think of where we are under ETH, the more I realise how big a job "over hauling" this club is.

From a disjointed squad, assembled from several managers worth of style, to the owners, to the structure, to the lack of leadership. Absolutely mental the state we are in.

Stadiums falling apart, the Glazers have sucked the life out of the club and we still don't appear to have a solid structure behind the scenes. That's before we even get to the playing squad!

We have so many bad characters in or around the dressing room that makes it virtually impossible for ETH to put his true authority on things. ETH is known to have specific, detailed demands of his players. But our squad is so used to failure and poor standards that not all of them can get on board with it. And ETH has to work with what he has. So he's left with a disjointed mix up of players who want to buy into his methods, and some that just cannot be arsed. And that leads to friction and problems.

The crux of it is, high standards have to be driven from the top and filter down. Right at the top we have owners who are trying to sell the club. So what's the message from all those below them? If the owners do not lay a good framework that the rest of the club can follow - cracks will show.

I think ETH is doing a good job, whilst working under the current structure we have. He is still a good few windows away from getting the players who don't fit into his vision gone and integrating his own players.

Still so many faces around that shouldn't be.

The injury crisis is carnage, hopefully that sorts itself out soon. We play with a different back 4 every single game and that is killing us, we have no stability.

I think long term, we need to be thinking of CB as a must for an upgrade. Varane cannot string regular games together that the English game requires, Lindelof is not good enough to be a starter and Maguire will never fit into what ETH wants. Even Martinez has looked a bit suspect. I dont think Varane is the answer, even if fit regularly I think we would be wise to invest in CB heavily.
 
Marwood said:
I think its possible to overthink football and asking "what is talent" is maybe that.

I'd believe it was mentality if these players had proved beforehand they're capable of dominating the opposition. But the vast majority haven't.

Think you're right confidence to try stuff is low right now but the problems these players have right now have always been there. It isn't a temporary mentality issue.
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They’re soft, they only raise to an occasion when the pressure is off. All our big performances in recent years have come when we’ve expected to get nothing out of the game. As soon as we’ve favourites or should be winning comfortably, they crumble. It’s a mentality issue, the United shirt weighs heavy on a lot of these players, except from Hojlund and maybe Antony from what I’ve seen in their ability to be unfazed by occasion.
 
crossy1686 said:
They’re soft, they only raise to an occasion when the pressure is off. All our big performances in recent years have come when we’ve expected to get nothing out of the game. As soon as we’ve favourites or should be winning comfortably, they crumble. It’s a mentality issue, the United shirt weighs heavy on a lot of these players, except from Hojlund and maybe Antony from what I’ve seen in their ability to be unfazed by occasion.
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Our absolute worst performances have come in the big games.
 
crossy1686 said:
They’re soft, they only raise to an occasion when the pressure is off. All our big performances in recent years have come when we’ve expected to get nothing out of the game. As soon as we’ve favourites or should be winning comfortably, they crumble. It’s a mentality issue, the United shirt weighs heavy on a lot of these players, except from Hojlund and maybe Antony from what I’ve seen in their ability to be unfazed by occasion.
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I was watching the Beckham documentary last night and three things stood out. The first was Neville's description of that Treble team, he said Fergie had 11 mini-me's on the pitch each game, they were all battlers who hated to lose, but they were all players who were ambitious - everyone wanted something. The second was the standards, how players were expected to perform at 100% every game, no dropping in performance levels. And you could see the pride underlying that. The third was the sheer character of players like Beckham, the sheer hard work they put in, the ability to bounce back from huge setbacks. I couldn't help but compare those players and they way played, with so many of ours, and think those are the tools you use to deal with pressure.
 
nickm said:
I was watching the Beckham documentary last night and three things stood out. The first was Neville's description of that Treble team, he said Fergie had 11 mini-me's on the pitch each game, they were all battlers who hated to lose, but they were all players who were ambitious - everyone wanted something. The second was the standards, how players were expected to perform at 100% every game, no dropping in performance levels. And you could see the pride underlying that. The third was the sheer character of players like Beckham, the sheer hard work they put in, the ability to bounce back from huge setbacks. I couldn't help but compare those players and they way played, with so many of ours, and think those are the tools you use to deal with pressure.
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Yeah the Beckham documentary really showed what is lacking today. Especially when you look at players like Sancho and then see posters on here defending him and having a go at EtH for "publicly calling him out" for not training properly.
 
Considering Man utd finally won a trophy under ETH after so many years, he sure can move things faster and better than his predecessor.
 
CM10 said:
I don't even think it's necessarily about the mentality of the players. Some of them might need to apply themselves more, but Ten Hag doesn't seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of even his key players. He's asking Casemiro to push up when he's playing an already isolated role and his legs are going. The defence is hotchpotch due to the injuries and there's no protection in front of them to help them out.

The best managers hide the flaws of their players and team but the way we've set up this season has only exposed ours. The signings Ten Hag has made don't make sense either if this is the style of play he wants to adopt. This team shouldn't be anywhere near as bad as it is.
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I find it hilarious how many people praise ETH's coaching abilities now compared to Ole during his tenure. Say what you will about Ole, but the man had the team playing very pragmatically using the strengths at his disposal. Yeah he failed at cementing a style and team that actually could have us win the title but Erik is failing just the same and given his transfers I see nothing to suggest he's going to turn that around.
 
Genuinely hope ETH and the staff have used this break to plan for the team effectively because another loss in the next few fixtures will throw the manager and club back into the frying pan.
 
It supports the notion,

  • We run alot this season.
  • We press alot this season.
  • We win the ball high up the field more

But. But. But.

  • We lose the ball almost immediately
  • We lose concentration in matches and the defence is unable to bail us out. - - all this are pointed out by the fact all our games are like basketball game.


 
As inconsistent as we have been this season I’m still seeing those stats as positive. Injuries have killed us, as has the poor form of top players. However with players back and maybe finding form I can see high pressing and better turnover in the final third leading to more goals and all that comes with that.

Our defence definitely improved with Martinez the leader for me and our issues back there came once he got injured last season. The high line he allowed us to play would have helped the midfield turnover stat too as he often played the ball through the lines to the forwards.

Im just looking for stability over the next few games, hopefully some chemistry builds and we can start to develop again. We have the coach who can do that given time.
 
Those stats are backing up my opinion that last season was all about top four. He didn’t think he could implement what he wanted with De Gea and other players, so went against how he would usually instruct teams to play.

This season he’s obviously tried to change this and we’re facing the usual struggles that teams do in year one of these projects. It also explains the injuries to an extent. Newcastle for example haven’t had so much of an issue as the system is fairly defensive.

The problem with this is that he now has season two expectations, so not getting Champions League next season will be a disaster. We’re a long way off that situation yet though.
 
So we've improved as a pressing team but regressed in every other area. Personally I'd rather watch us play good football than press like madmen and get nowhere with it.
 
I'd rather watch us actually create a style, follow along with it and fill in the correct players for said style.

This takes time and patience. Something the internet is obviously lacking, thanks God actual match going fans have very supportive attitude.
 
The injuries have played a massive role in the start of this season along with the poor form of rashford, a suspect CM group and having no real other threat in the attacking group of players(sancho, garnacho, martial, antony).
 
ForeverRed1 said:
I said the same but it’s probably down to his illness of recent years. You just always imagine him around the club. True legend.
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Yep. Felt like the camera would have panned to him tonight, but he’s been seen less and less in recent years.
 
I'm sorry but we aren't winning anything of note with this manager, I always forget how bad we are. Only been 10 mins and a ravaged Sheffield look miles better
 
He has to be throwing here, I cannot understand what we are even doing on the pitch? Barely any possession against the mighty Sheffield United.
 
L1nk said:
He has to be throwing here, I cannot understand what we are even doing on the pitch? Barely any possession against the mighty Sheffield United.
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This game is no different to any of his others. Same old moments football.
 
It's been over 10 years since we had a good midfield.
 
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