Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

Status
Not open for further replies.
Im sick of these excuses. We got taught a lesson at home to a Brighton side depleted by sales of their top players and they made 6 changes. We lost to friggin Palace who on paper not one of thier players would get into our team even with the injuries. Plus they had their first front 3 missing. You can use these excuses against Bayern, Arsenal etc and the fans would be understanding. But you cannot use injuries as an excuse against the bottom teams
Brighton (and Brentford to a lesser extent) have done well as they’ve been owned by large gambling companies, who earn rather than lose money by scouting/ researching players. This gives them better information than our terrible scouts have.

Also depleted by sales, when the window is open and you can do something about it, is not the same as depleted by 5 defensive injuries at the same time. Next to no club could prepare for 4 simultaneous full back injuries.

But I agree we make the same mistakes over and over again due to the structure of the club:

Tiring pre season travel to earn Glaziers pocket money

Slow decision making when our rivals have planned transfers for months before the window opens.

Bring in players late with no match fitness.

Don’t go all out for key players, especially in arguably the most important position in the modern game: a complete and agile DM.

Don’t invest in infrastructure, like the stadium and training ground, which puts players off and decreases morale
 
Too soon to say anything about spurs or ange. People were raving about eth when we won the carabao. Our football post WC till europa win was sublime. Maybe we should have given up on Europa or FA cup but we lost our way somewhat.

Spurs have an advantage of focussing just on league football, smartly got knocked out of carabao as well. I hope if we miss out on CL then we completely miss out on European football and have one game per week.

Depends on your definition, but our football has never been "superb" United ETH. I would love to know how you would describe Ten Hag football?

I disagree. Spurs were in the mud and lost the best player to have ever played for their club. Agree, we don't know if it will last, but it has been very impressive so far. The results have been great and more importantly, he has got them playing his brand of football.

And its a bit too early on pointing to the fact that Spurs don't have European football because we have only played one European game this season.
 
Im sick of these excuses. We got taught a lesson at home to a Brighton side depleted by sales of their top players and they made 6 changes. We lost to friggin Palace who on paper not one of thier players would get into our team even with the injuries. Plus they had their first front 3 missing. You can use these excuses against Bayern, Arsenal etc and the fans would be understanding. But you cannot use injuries as an excuse against the bottom teams

Brighton have a system and the system is king. It doesn't matter who comes in, be it a player or a manager. They can fit into that system and they know their roles. They are judged upon how they play that role.

We buy massively expensive players, put them on high salaries and force a manager to fit them into what they want to do.

Ten Hag doesn't have a system - it is clear. He is changing his formations each week and hoping that something sticks. He would rather change the formations to squeeze in as many of his best players, than trust one system and select those who best fit each role.

We saw that v Brighton where he played an untested 442 diamond. He then went back to two holders V Bayern. Then switched again to dual 8's with Amrabat coming into midfield from LB v Palace.
What happened in all those game? We got beat.
 
Allow ETH to build his team. Sign him more players.

Great. Let's get even more wedded to Ten Hag.

Never in the history of the Premier League has a manager gone back and signed so many of his old players.

Pep didnt raid Barca or Bayern when he went to City. Didnt see Klopp signing Dormund players. Has Ange signed anyone from Celtic?
 
I'm giving ETH time despite how horrendous this start to the season has been, but I have to say that the logic that he shouldn't be sacked because we tried that 5 times before and it didn't work is a bit mental.

I don't understand this either the problem with United is they overindulge the manager but just out of interest how many managers have left United and gone on to find success at the top level ? That for me is the most interesting part. The reality is that between Moyes, Ole, Ragnick, LVG and Mourinho at the point of their careers that they were hired they have proved to be below average. The bar is incredibly low if the logic is we can't sack manager x because managers abc all had the same treatment. That's not how a business makes effective decisions.

It's also contradictory people will praise Erik for the success of last season but then blame the players for the failures this season. The manager has just as much if not more culpability at this present time. So while Erik has firmly ruled himself out of receiving blind faith (too many inconsistencies with his management) there exists a reality where the medium is the most objective where EtH hasn't done enough to warrant the sack but the direction this team is going in he's also doing enough to suggest (which isn't a fact) he's not good enough. Many posts on here are absolving the manager of any responsibility which after a season and 400M spent is absolutely ridiculous.
 
Last edited:
I don't understand this either the problem with United is they overindulge the manager but just out of interest how many managers have left United and gone on to find success at the top level ?
The same is true of the players, really.
 
Interesting that you make the distinction between fans and "anyone who has any say in how a football club is run". Which football club do you have a say in? Or are you just a fan too, despite your condescending post insinuating otherwise?

It's funny as Arsenal are an excellent current example of how you're completely wrong, they tried chopping and changing, ended up with a mess of a squad, and so gave Arteta time to overhaul things and have been rewarded. Hopefully the folks that run our club have a similar patience and foresight.
You know what's even more funny? How all you guys talk about is Arsenal because they are the only example that you can think of. And somehow an exception proves the rule wrong.

Even the folks that run our club have more sense than to stick with something that obviously isn't working. Even them. Enough said, really.
 
Which is true but then it's the managers liability as they are the ones singing the players. It goes hand in hand.
That’s the root of the problem - managers should not have as big a say in signings as they do.

People are resigned to the fact that a new manager coming in will have the same structure and lack of expertise in place above them and make the same mistakes as ETH.

Every new manager kicks the can further down the road because their mistakes take 2 or 3 years longer to fix than they take to make.

a new manager papers over the cracks with another year or two of false dawns. We’d likely get a year of better football, a league cup and maybe a Europa league run out of it before it goes to shit again, and if that’s what people want then fair enough.
 
Great. Let's get even more wedded to Ten Hag.

Never in the history of the Premier League has a manager gone back and signed so many of his old players.

Pep didnt raid Barca or Bayern when he went to City. Didnt see Klopp signing Dormund players. Has Ange signed anyone from Celtic?

It's ridiculous I'm glad these points are being raised the writing was already on the wall for Moyes when come summer he couldn't see anything furtherfield of Fellaini and Baines. Round up a further 7 years and it's reflective of the same lack of foresight. When will the club learn, top clubs sign players even when no managers present (Madrid) because it's the club that sets the directive not the manager, the manager is simply an employee of that directive. It would be interesting to know what was said when Murtough interviewed Erik. From the evidence of how things have planned out it should have been EtH interviewing John.
 
United scouting and recruitment department is "whoever manager wants"

It didnt seem to be that for Ole, if his interview is to be beleived.

It was said in a report recently that the club and ETH both have a veto on players....

https://theathletic.com/4877364/2023/09/19/manchester-united-harry-kane-transfer-ten-hag/

...so both have to agree on a signing. The club vetoed Kane due to age and finances.

Makes you wonder who is proposing the ETH players and if any others have been vetoed by the club.

Either way, because of this system, all players will be seen as ETHs men, so he has to take full ownership if and when a player fails. And it's magnified x10 when he brings a player in from a former club.
 
Depends on your definition, but our football has never been "superb" United ETH. I would love to know how you would describe Ten Hag football?

I disagree. Spurs were in the mud and lost the best player to have ever played for their club. Agree, we don't know if it will last, but it has been very impressive so far. The results have been great and more importantly, he has got them playing his brand of football.

And its a bit too early on pointing to the fact that Spurs don't have European football because we have only played one European game this season.
Spurs are playing one game a week and don't have to contend with the injuries like us. So yes, it is too soon to say whether they are back or not.

You can disagree but our football was pretty sublime from wc to carabao win. Ironically our best time with not much injuries to deal with as well. Not a surprise our game went down once martinez varane martial eriksen were injured.
 
Great. Let's get even more wedded to Ten Hag.

Never in the history of the Premier League has a manager gone back and signed so many of his old players.

Pep didnt raid Barca or Bayern when he went to City. Didnt see Klopp signing Dormund players. Has Ange signed anyone from Celtic?
Eriksen was just training with Ajax to get fitness.
Licha Antony, Onana and Amrabat is what you're referring to?

He didn't have mount playing for him, or Malacia, or Casemiro, or Hojlund. His other targets this year were not ex players - Kim, Todibo, Kane, Rabiot.

You're just talking nonsense in insinuating his targets are overly weighted on his own ex players.
 
You know what's even more funny? How all you guys talk about is Arsenal because they are the only example that you can think of. And somehow an exception proves the rule wrong.

Even the folks that run our club have more sense than to stick with something that obviously isn't working. Even them. Enough said, really.

I'm hoping the folks that run our club now have enough sense to see things through, rather than subject us to the constant resetting of the past decade under Woodward. Your approach would be more of the same cycle of failure, but I guess we'll have to see where the club goes.
 
It's ridiculous I'm glad these points are being raised the writing was already on the wall for Moyes when come summer he couldn't see anything furtherfield of Fellaini and Baines. Round up a further 7 years and it's reflective of the same lack of foresight. When will the club learn, top clubs sign players even when no managers present (Madrid) because it's the club that sets the directive not the manager, the manager is simply an employee of that directive. It would be interesting to know what was said when Murtough interviewed Erik. From the evidence of how things have planned out it should have been EtH interviewing John.

We don't know the exact roles and responsibilities of Murtough. I don't think he has the direct knowledge to select players, which is why I believe he brought in Andy O'Boyle as Dept football director....

https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...nited-deputy-football-director-profile-who-is

Ten Hag came in before Andy O'Boyle, so i think by that point ETH will have negotiated the veto on players that he has.

This means that if O'Boyle, reporting into Murtough, are going to have autonomy over player recruitment, like you suggested, it will have to be post ETH.
 
Eriksen was just training with Ajax to get fitness.
Licha Antony, Onana and Amrabat is what you're referring to?

He didn't have mount playing for him, or Malacia, or Casemiro, or Hojlund. His other targets this year were not ex players - Kim, Todibo, Kane, Rabiot.

You're just talking nonsense in insinuating his targets are overly weighted on his own ex players.

Name me one manager in Premier League history that has signed more of his ex players than Ten Hag?

I will wait.....
 
It didnt seem to be that for Ole, if his interview is to be beleived.

It was said in a report recently that the club and ETH both have a veto on players....

https://theathletic.com/4877364/2023/09/19/manchester-united-harry-kane-transfer-ten-hag/

...so both have to agree on a signing. The club vetoed Kane due to age and finances.

Makes you wonder who is proposing the ETH players and if any others have been vetoed by the club.

Either way, because of this system, all players will be seen as ETHs men, so he has to take full ownership if and when a player fails. And it's magnified x10 when he brings a player in from a former club.
Both have to agree on the signing. But who comes up with the list. Does the club know what players we want and then scout players and make a list and along with ETH, sit and come up with a list that is ok for ETH and the club. Or does the club ask ETH to come up with a list and then sit and veto whom they can't bring in.

The second method will bring more and more ex-players. It is a flawed method. A manager has too much on his plate already.
 
Name me one manager in Premier League history that has signed more of his ex players than Ten Hag?

I will wait.....
Someone like Harry Redknapp would have but that's the sort of category you're talking about. You're right that I think Guardiola has signed maybe 2 players he'd previously coached over his time at both Bayern and City, I'm not sure Klopp ever has and yet we now have 3 members of the team that won the Eredivisie 18 months ago by a whopping 2 points and hope that will suffice in a much stronger league.
 
Name me one manager in Premier League history that has signed more of his ex players than Ten Hag?

I will wait.....
Who gives a feck? He hasn't overweighted ex players, and the players he did sign were good signings except for Antony so far.

If he's objectively showing bang for buck then you shouldn't say shite about them being an ex player. Imagine getting angry at Eriksen on a free because he's an ex player :lol: or even licha or an Amrabat loan. fecking hell.
 
Both have to agree on the signing. But who comes up with the list. Does the club know what players we want and then scout players and make a list and along with ETH, sit and come up with a list that is ok for ETH and the club. Or does the club ask ETH to come up with a list and then sit and veto whom they can't bring in.

The second method will bring more and more ex-players. It is a flawed method. A manager has too much on his plate already.

No one knows.

But my guess is that it starts with a proposed list from the club. But i think ETH knows what he likes, and he likes what he knows.
 
Someone like Harry Redknapp would have but that's the sort of category you're talking about. You're right that I think Guardiola has signed maybe 2 players he'd previously coached over his time at both Bayern and City, I'm not sure Klopp ever has and yet we now have 4 members of the team that won the Eredivisie 18 months ago by a whopping 2 points and hope that will suffice in a much stronger league.
Did you count Eriksen in that? He was just training at Ajax to get fitness..
 
Did you count Eriksen in that? He was just training at Ajax to get fitness..
No, apologies you're right it's 3. I had Amrabat in my head but he coached him earlier his career. It's still true that we have signed more former Ten Hag players than has been common for the top managers but that one was an error on my part.
 
No, apologies you're right it's 3. I had Amrabat in my head but he coached him earlier his career. It's still true that we have signed more former Ten Hag players than has been common for the top managers but that one was an error on my part.
We have but I don't see that as a point to moan about. Hes clearly doing it because we have feck all structure. We literally sacked our head scouts before he joined, so now us complaining about him signing some players he personally can account for just makes me laugh. What a terrible thing to try and put him on a stake for :lol:

Even worse when you consider Amrabat is a loan, Eriksen is free, Licha is seen as a very good CB and Onana was the best keeper statistically in the CL last year.

But no, they happened to also play in Holland so feck em.
 
Typing on a phone or doing something else doesn't prevent you from reading what I put and arguing against that, rather than making up a strawman that I disagree we need to see any progress at all. Having said that, I accept that you weren't intentionally being disingenuous, it does seem like you're debating me in good faith, so we can park that.

As for your suggested approach though, I completely disagree. The "get rid of a manager, try this other one, 18 months and then try again" reactionary approach is the process we've followed for over a decade now, and it hasn't worked. I totally agree with your last point, and I don't think any amount of manager hopping will work beyond a new manager bounce until that direction, continuity, and support structure is in place. Once we do have something like that, then we can put some succession planning in place, so that when one manager goes, we can bring in another that fits the same mould and can build on what we have rather than change direction.

No worries, I don't think you're debating in bad faith either. I don't think we're as far apart as you think. I haven't totally given up on ETH, however, I have to admit, my confidence in him is waning as the weeks go by.

Overall I very much like him as a person, I really hope he can still succeed here.
 
That’s the root of the problem - managers should not have as big a say in signings as they do.

People are resigned to the fact that a new manager coming in will have the same structure and lack of expertise in place above them and make the same mistakes as ETH.

Every new manager kicks the can further down the road because their mistakes take 2 or 3 years longer to fix than they take to make.

a new manager papers over the cracks with another year or two of false dawns. We’d likely get a year of better football, a league cup and maybe a Europa league run out of it before it goes to shit again, and if that’s what people want then fair enough.

The root of the problem is that, although the managers have a big say in the transfers, they don't get much of a say in the overarching approach. Not since LvG. The guy who said that United need an "open-heart surgery" was shown the door and, just before ETH's appointment, sources from within the club leaked that United want evolution and not revolution.

Solskjaer talked about a cap in the transfers. He started off with a high pressing - high energy system that, soon after, he quickly abandoned.r. United have been a low work rate side that lives on transitional moments since 2016. If you don't want revolution, you'll have to accept that and start looking for managers who can serve this particular plan. People like Conte, Inzaghi, Simeone etc. Because that's where we are, atm. We have key players, all over the pitch, who aren't very fond of one-touch and link-up football and also believe that defensive work is beneath them.

And if we bring De Zerbi, or whoever, and tell him he'll get three major signings to evolve the side, guess what, he'll choose to plug holes instead of building something new. I think ETH's so-called "pragmatism" last season should ring a bell. And when he will finally try to take a little step forward, the sulking, the wrong "body language" and the leaks in the press will begin again. And De Zerbi will turn from a Messiah to a scapegoat whose job was nothing more than "to get the best out of his squad".

Does it mean that the manager shouldn't shoulder the blame? Absolutely, not. As Solskajer said, you may have grievances in the end, but you know what you are signing up for. But it goes beyond that. Both Klopp and Pep teach very demanding systems. It's not just the transfer budget that makes them successful. It's the feeling in the dressing room that, if you don't comply with the instructions, you'll be the one in trouble and not them.

United's modus operandi makes that nearly impossible. The manager at United can't survive Arteta's first years at Arsenal. We want CL qualifications at all costs, Arsenal said enough is enough: The task ahead is to build, not to fix. We can keep ETH, hire De Zerbi or whoever, but, before we do, we need to understand this. If it's not what we want, i mentioned it in another thread: Conte is available and can come here tomorrow.
 
Who gives a feck? He hasn't overweighted ex players, and the players he did sign were good signings except for Antony so far.

If he's objectively showing bang for buck then you shouldn't say shite about them being an ex player. Imagine getting angry at Eriksen on a free because he's an ex player :lol: or even licha or an Amrabat loan. fecking hell.

Everyone will give a feck if ETH gets the boot and the next man is left with "his players". It is one thing a new manager coming in with the last managers signings, but its amplified when those guys were picked from his previous clubs or were his recommendations.

Mount - on loan at Vitesse Arnhem, the 18-year-old's free-kick led to his side's third goal as they beat ETH's Ajax 3-2 in March 2018.
Amrabat - Utrecht player under ETH. And he is on a loan to buy, so we are buying him next year. He is only on loan this year for FFP.
Malacia - Wanted him at Ajax after impressing ETH at Feyenoord - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...y-erik-ten-has-has-made-tyrell-malacia-first/
Onana - Ajax
Anthony - Ajax
Mathenez - Ajax
Ericksen - Former Ajax and trained with Ajax under ETH.
Casimiro - Panic signing because Frankie De Jong, ETHs golden boy, did not wanted to leave Ajax.

And you say bang for buck? There isnt much value if the players we signed so far. Club see that United are focusing in on ETHs guys and up goes the price.
 
I'm hoping the folks that run our club now have enough sense to see things through, rather than subject us to the constant resetting of the past decade under Woodward. Your approach would be more of the same cycle of failure, but I guess we'll have to see where the club goes.
I don't even want ETH out. My "approach" is literally how 99.9% of clubs operate because they have to and because it only makes sense. It is only at United that we hear about these "give him 4 years" and "give him new players" ideas. Like where in the world does a manager have such luxury? It's absolutely wild to me that people consider a "manager's team" an entire new starting 11.

If sticking with a manager is the recipe for success, which manager we should have stuck with? We're still trying to get rid of Ole's expensive mistakes. Surely it can't be Moyes. Who then? LVG or Mourinho?
 
Everyone will give a feck if ETH gets the boot and the next man is left with "his players". It is one thing a new manager coming in with the last managers signings, but its amplified when those guys were picked from his previous clubs or were his recommendations.

Mount - on loan at Vitesse Arnhem, the 18-year-old's free-kick led to his side's third goal as they beat ETH's Ajax 3-2 in March 2018.
Amrabat - Utrecht player under ETH. And he is on a loan to buy, so we are buying him next year. He is only on loan this year for FFP.
Malacia - Wanted him at Ajax after impressing ETH at Feyenoord - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...y-erik-ten-has-has-made-tyrell-malacia-first/
Onana - Ajax
Anthony - Ajax
Mathenez - Ajax
Ericksen - Former Ajax and trained with Ajax under ETH.
Casimiro - Panic signing because Frankie De Jong, ETHs golden boy, did not wanted to leave Ajax.

And you say bang for buck? There isnt much value if the players we signed so far. Club see that United are focusing in on ETHs guys and up goes the price.
Kind of a hilarious one to bring up. Yeah, god, would really suck if we'd signed Frenkie de Jong.
 
You can disagree but our football was pretty sublime from wc to carabao win.
This is exactly the rashford purple patch period.

It was good period but saying sublime it's not true.

It was 11 games period.

Nottingham - win 3-0
Wolves win 1-0
Bournmouth win 3-0
City - win 2-1
Palace. draw 1-1
Arsenal lost 1-3
Palace win 2-1
Leeds. draw 2-2
Leeds win 2-0
Leicester win 3-0
Liverpool. lost 0-7

The sublime football as you say and the following is the end products of that period.

7 wins
2 losses
2 draws.

20 goals scored.
15 goals conceded.

The only big team we beat during this time was City at home. We all know it was a dubious equalizer but we take it.

Putting it into perspective, if this is the sublime period in the eyes of many then you see why and how we are here now. We have been average throughout the ETH period. Yes the league was not strong last term. But this season it's considerably tough thus our form.
 
This is exactly the rashford purple patch period.

It was good period but saying sublime it's not true.

It was 11 games period.

Nottingham - win 3-0
Wolves win 1-0
Bournmouth win 3-0
City - win 2-1
Palace. draw 1-1
Arsenal lost 1-3
Palace win 2-1
Leeds. draw 2-2
Leeds win 2-0
Leicester win 3-0
Liverpool. lost 0-7

The sublime football as you say and the following is the end products of that period.

7 wins
2 losses
2 draws.

20 goals scored.
15 goals conceded.

The only big team we beat during this time was City at home. We all know it was a dubious equalizer but we take it.

Putting it into perspective, if this is the sublime period in the eyes of many then you see why and how we are here now. We have been average throughout the ETH period. Yes the league was not strong last term. But this season it's considerably tough thus our form.
I specifically mentioned till carabao win and you for some reason sneak in the Liverpool game.

Also, your list doesn't include our win against Barca and pretty good performances in carabao.

Point again is it was a good period where we play some good football.
 
I don't even want ETH out. My "approach" is literally how 99.9% of clubs operate because they have to and because it only makes sense. It is only at United that we hear about these "give him 4 years" and "give him new players" ideas. Like where in the world does a manager have such luxury? It's absolutely wild to me that people consider a "manager's team" an entire new starting 11.

If sticking with a manager is the recipe for success, which manager we should have stuck with? We're still trying to get rid of Ole's expensive mistakes. Surely it can't be Moyes. Who then? LVG or Mourinho?

Literally 99.9% of clubs? That's a lot of hyperbole.

Anyway I think we're getting wires crossed here. I'm not saying teams don't fire managers when there aren't signs of progress, I'm saying that doing so without proper succession planning is a terrible idea. Most clubs nowadays have a shortlist of managers who can take over and build on what exists, rather than drastically changing direction, and that's the model we have to follow if we decide to part ways with Ten Hag. I don't think that's warranted yet, as I see signs of big progress that I think will translate into results in the relatively near future.

As for a managers team, an entire new 11 isn't always necessary. Pep at City only needed to replace all the full backs as the squad had been built with the idea of him joining for years beforehand, but if you gave him the Wimbledon crazy gang he'd need an entirely new XI plus subs, the point being that context is required when determining if a manager has been able to make a team their own.
 
Kind of a hilarious one to bring up. Yeah, god, would really suck if we'd signed Frenkie de Jong.

Previous poster saying the club were not just going for ETH players. We chased one for months when he was never leaving Barca. Then panic buyed Casemiro, who came here for his pension.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.