Starting to worry he isn't going to see the season out.
He's far from the biggest problem and I don't want him sacked for the record. But...yeah.
He's far from the biggest problem and I don't want him sacked for the record. But...yeah.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
- Status
And because the football structure around him is good. Klopp won 4 league games prior to February in his last season with Dortmund, even great managers like him can struggle.
ETH is handicapped by the fact the Glazers have had no interest in knowing any football people outside of the United bubble. They appoint bankers with zero sporting background and their mates to oversee everything which is why everything is so antiquated and alien as a result. It’s a farce. At least FSG and Kroenke have delegated stuff out and got structures.
Which is why it’s very important that we get a resolution to the ownership situation. The Glazers know shit outside of Sir Alex Ferguson. Every manager has been attempted to be squeezed into that SAF hole and at no point was a restructuring on the cards until almost a decade later, when they internally appointed Murtough.
Which is why it’s very important that we get a resolution to the ownership situation. The Glazers know shit outside of Sir Alex Ferguson. Every manager has been attempted to be squeezed into that SAF hole and at no point was a restructuring on the cards until almost a decade later, when they internally appointed Murtough.
We have a long injury list and he had a very good first season. He sees out the campaign for me but our style of play is pretty awful after so long in charge. Pep proved you can’t win anything with average players and doesn’t even bother trying…we have a lot of average players still, we are still buying them under this manager’s watch...personally I’ll be pretty shocked if he’s manager of the club in 2 years. Losing faith fast.
What I would say, in his defence, is that it must be tough to coach a new system into the team with so many injuries.
The problem remains that there's no real evidence he CAN coach this system into this squad.
I think its fair to say we can evaluate him properly in mid-Jan. I think by that point, he needs to have found whatever solutions he needs to find to make us look like a functioning unit.
Personally I don't accept the following...
'The players are lazy'
Some of them might be...but the majority definitely are not in my opinion. Also, that argument loses its impact when he consistently selects the laziest of them all (Rashford)
"The Glazers/the management team are letting him down"
If we're talking about competing for titles with City and/or winning Champions League titles, then I'd accept we're miles off it behind the scenes. I don't accept it as an argument for not achieving top four. It should be very doable with the current squad.
The problem remains that there's no real evidence he CAN coach this system into this squad.
I think its fair to say we can evaluate him properly in mid-Jan. I think by that point, he needs to have found whatever solutions he needs to find to make us look like a functioning unit.
Personally I don't accept the following...
'The players are lazy'
Some of them might be...but the majority definitely are not in my opinion. Also, that argument loses its impact when he consistently selects the laziest of them all (Rashford)
"The Glazers/the management team are letting him down"
If we're talking about competing for titles with City and/or winning Champions League titles, then I'd accept we're miles off it behind the scenes. I don't accept it as an argument for not achieving top four. It should be very doable with the current squad.
Very good summary, and spot on.
I would add: the GLAZERS. They’re always the problem, even we lose to teams that we should be beating.
Didn't Arsenal change their structure above the manager around the same time as getting Arteta in as well? And didn't Liverpool do something similar as well at the same time as getting Klopp?
For me, it's very difficult judging ETH knowing that the structure above him is so bad. I, for example, struggle to see the rationale in going for a high pressing style but at the same time handing out a new big contract to Rashford. But was that ETH's decision or the structure above him? If we had a proper structure it would at least be clear (heh) who to judge on what.
Yes. Quite agree. 5 different managers since the absolute greatest of all time. And what do we have to show for it. Mediocrity.
This is obviously wrong. Liverpool's owners brought proper people in above Klopp, who pushed back on his personal targets and instead gave him players such as Salah, Robertson, Wijnaldum and others. We've essentially gone with managers targets specifically for the last 10 years with very little pushback for reasoning relating to anything other than finance. I don't really see the issue with Liverpool's owners? They have backed him hugely, while continuing expansion works on the stadium and training ground.
Ljungberg was in charge for four games.
There's no trap. Dismissing managers who aren't good is commonplace for every big team in Europe who aren't named Liverpool or City. Don't get me wrong, the club has massive structural issues (literally and figuratively) but the idea of running through coaches too quickly is incorrect.
In charge for four games (
) is still in charge, we've had Carrick in charge for 4 games, it's still a short-sighted approach when we're trying to build something beyond our limited style of play for the past decade or so.As for "incorrect", that's just silly, you can get rid of managers that aren't going anywhere, but Arsenal with Arteta, Liverpool with Klopp, in both cases they stuck by a manager who was changing the culture, the style, the philosophy, and it worked out for them. I think we should do the same with Ten Hag. If you disagree, then who do you think we should bring in instead, and why would they be better for us?
Glazers will be overjoyed.
Fans are not angry about our outdated infrastructure, shit fitness staff, shit recovery programs, shit nutritionists, shit base etc.
Fans are angry with yet another manager.
We don't have the basics right, literally every success we had in the last 10 years is massive overachieving.
Sack ETH, get new manager, get decent few months, watch everything turn to shit, and start again.
Fans are not angry about our outdated infrastructure, shit fitness staff, shit recovery programs, shit nutritionists, shit base etc.
Fans are angry with yet another manager.
We don't have the basics right, literally every success we had in the last 10 years is massive overachieving.
Sack ETH, get new manager, get decent few months, watch everything turn to shit, and start again.
Who on earth is even defending the manager? I just see the same posters arguing the same point against each other. There must be around 3 posters in here defending him.
The manager is a bigger problem than the owners at this point.
The point is the expectations for United should be far higher than say Arsenal or Tottenham. Getting top 4 or winning a domestic trophy should be considered a great season for Spurs for example but for United it's the bare minimum of expectations. Arsenal have been irrelevant for far longer time than United, they were irrelevant even in the last few years of their legendary manager.
The fact we're not performing to this level of standards is our issue that we need to solve, rather than dropping our standards down to suit the current underperformance.
Klopp succeeds because Liverpool recruit well. They have a proper analytics department in tune with finding the best players for Klopp's system. And they/Klopp know what works in the PL.
When they had injuries last season they struggled. Because quality of players is more important than any manager.
See, this is why I think we're doomed. People can apparently genuinely think this, after the last ten years.
The best managers will struggle here too because we’re not setup for it.
Anyone coming in has to undo all the decisions ETH has been allowed to make due to failure of the people above him.
You get ~ two years max before the fans lose faith and in that time you’ve got to get rid of a squad of overpaid players on financial terms that the board are comfortable with.
I’ve major questions about ETH but it’s just a vicious circle at this point of short term decisions that completely neuter us long term.
Arsenal have basically laid out the framework of what we should be doing - Arteta is no better than ETH. You need a long term approach and then you can switch managers easily.
I think the back to back home losses to Liverpool and City were the writing on the wall for Ole.
If we lose most of our games up to City, and then they thwack us 5-0, ETH would be under serious pressure.
Good point.
Only have to look at last season to see Liverpool won 3 out of their first 10 epl games as they also had a similar injury crisis.
But how is Rashford getting a big contract making Man United not to be able to pass the ball well, have patterns of play, or lose football, zero control. Etc
Has he been told he must play rashford? Bench him if he can't play how you want, you're the coach.
ETH job is one. Coach the team to it's best abilities. Only that. And if he can't do that, what is he doing here? If you look at us now, do we look like a coached team 18 months later?
This are just excuses.
Ferguson won with Glazers around.
United glorious team (2007-2012) for the last 40 years to date was under Glazers. Ferguson was able to formulate the best squad with Glazers approving the funds.
So money or Glazers are not the problem.
The problem is we have poor coaches, who in turn get poor players, who in turn play poor games.
You claim to not be being disingenuous in the same sentence you deliberately misrepresent my argument. That's as disingenuous as it gets. I never disagreed that we should be seeing improvement, I reject your notion that we haven't. Last season was a huge improvement on the one before. On top of that, we've seen a great improvement in attitude and application, as well as steps towards a more proactive style (which, while not the finished article yet, is still an improvement).
A good performance is as recent as the first half at Spurs, which we utterly dominated until players started making mistakes due to their unfamiliarity with our new system.
As for your final argument, if you don't have a replacement in mind and why they'd succeed where you believe Ten Hag is failing, then you can't claim to understand what's going wrong. So at that point wanting him fired is an opinion, but it's baseless and irrational.
As for your suggestions, Ange and De Zerbi both have done well in very low pressure environments since coming here. DZ in particular has slotted in to a team that already played similar to how he wanted. Eddie Howe turned Newcastle into the most timewasting negative team in the league, and it worked for them. What about any of those managers makes you think they could overhaul United, to play a more proactive style, without the problems that Ten Hag is having trying to do the same?
Who is the right manager to come in and turn the ship around and lead us to future ongoing success? Do you trust Murtough and the Glazers to get them in?
Not being funny but most people wanted ETH and Murtough got ETH. Nobody has the silver bullet answer to who will turn out to be the one to turn it around, but it'll probably be a process of elimination, which has already started. Maybe we'll find a good manager who is out there now, or maybe somewhere along the way another Pep or Klopp will arrive on the scene and we'll get them. I'm just not a fan of standing still and saying "that's it lads, we're out of ideas so let's just stick with this". You simply have to try. Somebody unexpected might surprise us. The way Howe has surprised me, for example.
One thing we can't do, as supporters, is say we're both bothered about changing things until the Glazers go. They might not go for either 10-15 years. It might not be perfect but we have to try something to see if we can make something work with what we've got. I don't think we need a genius in charge. More a good personality with good ideas.
Fergie wasn't interested in details like Pep, for example, but he knew how he wanted us to play and let the opposition worry about how to combat us. But he also connected with players and probably took people to levels they'd have not reached if they never met him. I think that's what we need right now and that'll be 80% of the battle won. But ETH doesn't have the personality or charm to connect with different players in my opinion. He's not inspiring and I also don't think he's as clever as he thinks he is tactically.
Sir Alex also needed to have the backing of those above him to not only make those decisions, but then have them acted upon. I think it is clear that if it was solely up to Ten Hag then Sancho and Maguire at least would no longer be at the club. Unfortunately with current day United, it is not that simple.
I'm starting to think that you don't rate Ten Hag very highly.
Arsenal and Liverpool have been only teams to get near City through a combination of very good management and recruitment. Our recruitment (and ability sell players) is woeful and no one other than the manager is or will be held accountable.
ETH is making mistakes and it will cost him his job if he doesn’t it round, but no manager has much of a chance when the recruitment is so bad and has been for so long.
Sir Alex converted the neutrals/his enemies to his cause. No one knows really how he came to last so long without a trophy at first, but according to some of the board, it was Sir Alex's terrific work in revamping the scouting and youth system that saved his bacon. When he arrived, we had more scouts in Belfast than in Manchester. Sir Alex reversed all that and then some.
Okay so all we need to do is find another version of the greatest manager of all time, who can control and personally delegate all aspects of the football club, and do it in the age of the oil clubs. Sounds doable.
For that, the club must know what it wants and I don't think the higher ups have a clue what they want to see on the field.
It should never be about undoing what was done, but to proceed. That's something United and its fans must understand.
No other successful club thinks in multi-year rebuilds, they all look at what they have at any given moment and try to build on it.
The current squad should be resulting in a much better team than it currently does, and that's in EtH and doesn’t need to be undone.
Same way 'they' got Ole and ETH probably, should show you they have no capabilities to know a good coach or not. Then a good player or not.
Its the same way Ole though Maguire is a good player, Sancho is well equipped for EPL or ETH thought Antony is a EPL winger..
Probably, we signed poor managers who in turn, sign off poor players to be signed. So it's a chain of poor owners then poor recruitment everywhere. Sadly ETH was choosen by the poor recruiters.
Eeeh, sad.
He did, he's the best ever. If we could get a young Alex Ferguson to come in tomorrow then sign me up. But he would still be coming in to work under Murtough and the Glazers, and they would be the ones deciding whether it is ok to spend the money on revamping the recruitment/scouting department.
I get that and I was of the same opinion. But now I reflect on our decisions and managerial appointments, and I honestly do feel like we've just got them all wrong. Moyes wasn't established enough to command respect of the players we had at that time. LVG was just the wrong appointment as his football was bland. Jose was in his depressed looking phase and not the larger than life guy he was previously. Ole never the right appointment.
With ETH I think we've just bought into a fallacy. Some opinions were given by Ajax fans at the time that were drowned out by the fan club, such in reflection, shouldn't have been ignored. They mentioned a lot of the issues he did have that have become apparent here. Some said that many of their fans were tired of him and glad to see the back of him regardless of the success. There's also been more thorough examination of his work at Ajax, particularly in the Champions League, and it actually wasn't that impressive for the most part. He was living off that one season where they had a decent run, but nobody mentioned the times they got knocked out in the group stages and then knocked out of the EL by average sides. I feel like we've backed the wrong horse again and that the signs were there if we looked hard enough. I think the club got carried away by popular opinion of the supporters, whose opinion was formed off limited knowledge in the first place.
And to be honest, I don't think I want us to succession plan based on what ETH has done. I've no appetite for seeing more of this sort of football. It's not exciting and I don't think the players are actually learning the necessary lessons that will be required to become a team that challenges in the future. I'd day Eddie Howe, De Zerbi, Ange and even Emery are coaching to a higher level and could eventually be picked up by an even better coach and took to new levels. Here they'd be starting again. But I'd rather that happened sooner rather than later.
Biggest problem is Murtough. He is to blame for all this mess. Especially for this year. He is the one who sanctioned spending/wasting 200 mil on wrong players this summer.
I am not saying that Erik is blameless but when manager allows player to not run for example, who will you blame more for that? Manager or a player?
Same situation here. Manager just took an opportunity here. DoF gave him 100% control over recruitment and manager said; "Wow, great. I am playing FM in real time".
No other club thinks in multi year rebuilds because they’re making long term decisions in the first place. That’s the entire point of making long term decisions - you don’t need major rebuilds every few years.
We’d need one rebuild if done right and the correct structures were put in place.
Eth has made some terrible decisions in the transfer market that will likely define his time here, but it says everything about the club and how we operate that ultimately he shouldn’t have been able to make them in the first place.
You realise when people reply to your posts, they're generally typing on a phone and/or doing something else at the same....they're not ever supposed to be taken as rock-solid philosophical discourses and/or personal attacks, in which we pour over semantics and the meaning of each sentence...nobody is trying to be "disingenuous", I'm just telling you what my opinion is.
If you think we've improved and we're heading in the right direction then that's absolutely fine. Nobody is denying your right to think that. I happen to think we haven't improved much, if at all, certainly not tactically. I think the team spirit is better and the application is better, but are we PLAYING better...I'd argue not really. Again, in my opinion.
I also am sticking to my guns when I say that posters don't need to have a clear idea on a replacement to say the current manager needs to be doing much better. There's 1000s of football managers across the planet. The idea that we should stick with a given manager until an obvious standout candidate with absolutely no potential downsides becomes available doesn't sit right with me. If the current manager doesn't show signs of improving performances by Christmas, we can try De Zerbi, or similar...and...if they don't work after 18-months, we try again.
I think something we all agree on is that we'd find it easier to change the coach if there was continuity and clear direction amongst the senior leadership team. That for sure is a fair argument.
I've been disappointed by him and his choices frequently, moreso this season but I am 100% behind him as clearly despite us changing managers the same problem persists, the variable is the manager and changing it yields nothing but short term change. We need to get the backroom staff out as they are the fixed element in this scenario, they have seen all this mediocrity, been a part of it and remained in place to repeat the process.
They focus too much on their own interests, commercial side of the game and don't focus on the football side and it shows, players like Rashford and their brand are promoted beyond that of players of the same nationality who have achieved far more in the game like Kane, they have a power that the manager cannot touch other than dropping for the odd game, that in turn discourages players beneath them and this ripples outward and will always result in the same end effect.
The only way for change is a sale and restructure, replacing Ten Hag will do nothing.
They focus too much on their own interests, commercial side of the game and don't focus on the football side and it shows, players like Rashford and their brand are promoted beyond that of players of the same nationality who have achieved far more in the game like Kane, they have a power that the manager cannot touch other than dropping for the odd game, that in turn discourages players beneath them and this ripples outward and will always result in the same end effect.
The only way for change is a sale and restructure, replacing Ten Hag will do nothing.
This is the first reasonable, consistent, and well articulated post I've seen on the side of that I can remember. I don't necessarily agree, but I respect the post.
However, I think your suggested replacements are terrible. Howe has Newcastle playing awful football, they managed to timewaste so much last season that the rules got changed to prevent it. Emery is famous for his negative football, and while we'd likely be dangerous on the counter under him given that the squad is still well built for mid-block football, we'd just get stuck again in the cycle of allowing opponents to dominate the ball and matches.
De Zerbi is at least stylistically heading in a good direction, but his CV is much poorer than Ten Hags, having been sacked after 2 months as Sassuolo, and got Benevento relegated. The only thing of note he's done is "play nice football with Brighton", in which he came into a team already playing nice football and on an upward trajectory. Nothing there suggests he could come into the huge pressure environment at United, and get a team that's been uncomfortable in possession for years to suddenly be good at it.
We have noticeably changed our style since ETH took over. The changes from last season to this season is clearly not working at the moment and of course ETH has a lot of blame for that even though there are mitigating circumstances.
I can guarantee that the first job of ETH in the eyes of the management is short term success in the form of CL football, because money comes first for our beloved owners. A new approach and structure for long term success would be second, at best.
Honestly, I don't mind if we change the manager or not. I just don't think it will make a difference for the medium to long term. We'll probably get a slightly better 1-1,5 years and then it will turn to shit again.
I don't know but we will never know if we don't try appointing the right man for the job instead of sticking with the wrong men for the job. They will get it right eventually, not because they're competent but simply because you have more chance of getting it right if you just try something else when the thing you're currently trying isn't working.
- Status