Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[IncyWincySpider]

I want him to see this season out. Let's see what kind of football we're playing by the spring. We aren't going to be winning anything but if the football improves and it looks like the squad is starting to gel I'd like him to be given another summer to keep building.

If the football is still as bad by April as it is now then it will probably never get better and he should go.

 

[spiriticon]

If he needed a DOF, or at least an advisor, why did we let Rangnick go?

There was a structure in place to help him in that regard and it went to shit before Day 1.

 

[RedUnited86]

Whatever you say about the footballing structure (and it's shit - no question) the players aren't being coached well enough - and that's on no-one else but the manager.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

He needs more than a DOF though, he (along with anyone else who would take the job) needs a structure around him that has a shared footballing vision, and the ability to identify players who would succeed with us within the style we're implementing, that goes beyond the eye test and into data. It sounds like we're finally trying to put that in place with the new regime, but it'll take time to come good.

Exactly we would get a DOF, identify a style, get a manager to suit the style. Then the DOF and scouting system would look for players who have the attributes in all positions to play that style and have good characters, then present the options found to the manager for him to choose the players he wants. Then a competent negotiating team would then do their job.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

If he needed a DOF, or at least an advisor, why did we let Rangnick go?

There was a structure in place to help him in that regard and it went to shit before Day 1.

It was apparently ETH who did not want him, which is now looking a massive mistake.

 

[RedUnited86]

If he needed a DOF, or at least an advisor, why did we let Rangnick go?

There was a structure in place to help him in that regard and it went to shit before Day 1.

ETH made it clear he didn't want him involved at all.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Whatever you say about the footballing structure (and it's shit - no question) the players aren't being coached well enough - and that's on no-one else but the manager.

It is every manager though, every single manager we have had since SAF.

 

[spiriticon]

It was apparently ETH who did not want him, which is now looking a massive mistake.

ETH made it clear he didn't want him involved at all.

Well then feck ETH honestly. He can learn to swim.

 

[Redstain]

I think we should stick by him during this rough period. We finished 3rd last season and won a trophy, I think he deserves a bit more time.

Arsenal stuck by Arteta during their rough period and look where they are now.

The problem with this idea is it remits that time guarantees a manager's success which it doesn't. For every Arteta or Klopp there's a dozen failures in-between and in the case of Arsenal and Liverpool it resulted in various years of mediocrity.

Some small distinctions between Arteta and Eth; Mikel works under a much better structure with Edu and the owners son so there's delegation amongst the three. Because of this many of the first team signings for Arsenal have been hits. They're a youth focused brand so it clarifies recruitment even further. Arteta has had a consistent identity for his team makes it easier for players to buy into his ideas. Arsenal for the overwhelming majority of the previous season played the best football in the league out doing City and rivals. It's really the performances that Arteta has galvanized with his team that has given him credence to stay on as manager. These are stark differences compared to Erik where some responsibility has reflected his own poor management and some his incompetent superior's.

Lastly I was overhearing this discussion with the gooner fans, Arsenal are not a bigger club than United, no United manager would have survived consecutive 8th placed finishes because of the club's stature. So Artetas development is really a unique one which serves as an exception rather than an example. He doesn't get that time at a Madrid, Liverpool, Barcelona.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

The problem with this idea is it remits that time guarantees a manager's success which it doesn't. For every Arteta or Klopp there's a dozen failures in-between and in the case of Arsenal and Liverpool it resulted in various years of mediocrity.

Some small distinctions between Arteta and Eth; Mikel works under a much better structure with Edu and the owners son so there's delegation amongst the three. Because of this many of the first team signings for Arsenal have been hits. They're a youth focused brand so it clarifies recruitment even further. Arteta has had a consistent identity for his team makes it easier for players to buy into his ideas. Arsenal for the overwhelming majority of the previous season played the best football in the league out doing City and rivals. It's really the performances that Arteta has galvanized with his team that has given him credence to stay on as manager. These are stark differences compared to Erik where some responsibility has reflected his own poor management and some his incompetent superior's.

Lastly I was overhearing this discussion with the gooner fans, Arsenal are not a bigger club than United, no United manager would have survived consecutive 8th placed finishes because of the club's stature. So Artetas development is really a unique one which serves as an exception rather than an example. He doesn't get that time at a Madrid, Liverpool, Barcelona.

So which manager is available. Roma might sack Jose soon?

 

[fallengt]

Well then feck ETH honestly. He can learn to swim.

Made same mistake as previous managers.
Move from non-club to mega (commercial) club. Got sold on Disneyland for adult ideology and thought they could literally buy Donald and Goofy to play fantasy football. Reality hits hard after 1 season.
Arnold was still fecking spineless for not keeping Rangsnick though. He's ETH's boss, it's not the otherway around.

 

[Cantona in disguise]

I want him to see this season out. Let's see what kind of football we're playing by the spring. We aren't going to be winning anything but if the football improves and it looks like the squad is starting to gel I'd like him to be given another summer to keep building.

If the football is still as bad by April as it is now then it will probably never get better and he should go.

I think that's key now. We need to see performances improve and football improve. I'm not desperate to see wins every week at all costs. if we can build something. That's not standards slipping that's just the reality. I'm not defending ETH he has a lot of question marks right now. Form can however change with some good performances.

Erik has to show he can get this lot playing good football otherwise we have dross football and poor results. He will be gone by Christmas if things don't improve drastically.

The mentality at the club even with the new lads is still so weak.

 

[The Hilton]

Exactly we would get a DOF, identify a style, get a manager to suit the style. Then the DOF and scouting system would look for players who have the attributes in all positions to play that style and have good characters, then present the options found to the manager for him to choose the players he wants. Then a competent negotiating team would then do their job.

Exactly, but we don't have that setup yet, we're currently in the process of establishing it, with Ten Hag being tasked with pioneering that new style. Over time we'll be able to analyse our shortcomings in implementing that style successfully, and identify players with the attributes to fill the gaps.

What I'm getting at is that the entire club has embarked on a journey of modernisation, but it's still early days really, hopefully soon we'll start to see some improvements on that side in terms of recruitment, succession planning, etc, but it'll be a decade before it resembles a well oiled machine.

Given how early we are in that journey, I think swapping out the manager would be detrimental and slow it down (and if we did the whole caretaker thing, it would set us back to square one).

 

[Skills]

Exactly we would get a DOF, identify a style, get a manager to suit the style. Then the DOF and scouting system would look for players who have the attributes in all positions to play that style and have good characters, then present the options found to the manager for him to choose the players he wants. Then a competent negotiating team would then do their job.

You people just miss the point once again.

 

[Redstain]

So which manager is available. Roma might sack Jose soon?

That's the wrong question as my post doesn't signify sacking the manager but the ABC 123 rhetoric that every manager given time is the blueprint to success which we all know isn't true. The factors for some managers succeeding differentiate from club to club as clearly highlighted with Arteta.

 

[ErikElevenHag]

Indeed.

January 2016: Real Madrid is not looking good under Benitez. They had Ronaldo, Benzema, Marcelo, Ramos, Pepe, Modric, Kroos, etc. Now, imagine them replacing all of these players and keeping Benitez! Well, they chose to appoint Zidane. The results were “not bad”: won 3 UCLs in a row and the league in 2017. He won the UCL less than 5 months after being appointed.

Except our 10s of millions of players are harry maguire, jadon sancho, martial, lindelof. They aren't very good. No manager can get a tune out of those players and whoever is manager next season will be looking to move them on.

 

[OrcaFat]

Exactly we would get a DOF, identify a style, get a manager to suit the style. Then the DOF and scouting system would look for players who have the attributes in all positions to play that style and have good characters, then present the options found to the manager for him to choose the players he wants. Then a competent negotiating team would then do their job.

Structure might possibly be relevant but the key is competence. We have to have the best possible people making decisions. At the moment, EtH is the most qualified person at the club to decide what needs doing and who needs recruiting. He is also fully accountable. I haven’t got a problem with it.

 

[Skills]

I see our fanbase has replaced 'Woodward commercial signings' with it's the 'clubs fault for signing the players the manager wants'

 

[VP89]

This was always going to be painful.
I just didn't expect fans to get all panicked and knee jerk after 7 games.

 

[The Oracle]

The one thing that always concerns me with Ten Hag is that he is predictable:

He always waits until at least the 60th minute of the match to make a substitution.
It doesn't matter if we are losing at half time, he will not deviate from his rigid stance on substitutions.

If I can read him, then so can every other manager he faces.
Roy Hodgson would have known yesterday at half time with his team 1-0 up against us, that Ten Hag wouldn't make any changes at the break.

I can just imagine Roy's half-time team talk yesterday:
"Listen lads, they won't make any changes until the hour mark, so keep it tight as soon as we go back out there, and keep frustrating them. By the time they make their first substitution, we'll have 30 minutes to see out to the full time whistle."

 

[Ubik]

It was apparently ETH who did not want him, which is now looking a massive mistake.

It shows how mangled the whole scenario was though, bringing in someone mainly known for being a director of football as a coach and thereby making them personally responsible for short term results, and losing out on any benefits towards long term structure because he was inevitably seen as a busted flush and something else needing to be swept away by the new broom. It's maddening from every perspective.

 

[lsd]

ETH also doesn't have the experience to identify players from outside his own sphere which is why he goes for players who have played in the Dutch league. Hojlund is a slight deviation from that. As you say he needed a DOF if he wanted one or not. Nobody had the courage or knowledge to say it.

He didn't want one so can't use it as an excuse. He forced Rangnick out and didn't listen to his own scouts about his transfer targets not being good enough.

People really need to stop making excuses for him

 

[Redstain]

This was always going to be painful.
I just didn't expect fans to get all panicked and knee jerk after 7 games.

But there's nothing of the previous season to suggest the club should have started as poorly as it has. Last season and given the managers quotes on improvement (in the cup run he mentioned the team hated losing) everything was going in the right direction. Yes the performances after winning the cup began to recline slightly but the team still had spirit. Everything suggested that this team should have kicked on this current campaign but the players look lost and void.

 

[the_cliff]

Yes, ETH wanted Weghorst over every player in the world , not because it was the only player offered to him by the club who had no money!

The same club that offered Ighalo to another manager and keeps renewing Martials contracts. The same club that signed Fellaini, who was used as a desperate makeshift forward at times.

I agree, Our forward issues are definitely that our managers keep “wanting” low quality forwards and not because the club has no proper football infrastructure or long term squad plan.

It's bollocks. There were reports all summer saying he wanted another winger. Most people on here were shocked and couldn't believe it, well because of yesterday you know why now.

 

[zaafi]

I can't take this guy serious. He complains that we're doing individual mistakes, but continues to play the players responsible for these mistakes. Why does he think something is going to change if he's not willing to take them out of the team?

In the famous words of Albert Einstein: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results".

 

[slored1]

Some thoughts on the current tactical situation:

• I think we look a bit too haphazard in midfield, all three that started yesterday are not natural ball-carriers, neither are they adept at controlling the tempo of the match. Them lacking both means that we can never really control the game. We both lack directness when needed and often play too direct, as Bruno's, Casemiro's and Rashford's desire to play quick balls into space is often too soon in buildup for our actions, meaning that we lack men in the box most of the time when the ball played in space arrives there.
• The other problem we have is a constant lack of width and unpredictability on both sides of the pitch and that is a major, major issue. Even when all players are fit and in our first eleven, there is no one that really plays unpredictably and using both feet. It infuriates me how often Antony/Rashford/Bruno/Pellistri/etc. are only able to do one single variation of a move, meaning that defenders easily read what they are about to do in the final third. The only player who does things differently is Garnacho and even he can be wildly inconsistent by doing that.
• Onana was brought in to change our buildup approach but has so far been proven ineffective. Opponents have adjusted to this quickly by starting to press us in midfield rather than in our third, as we do not have a single press resistant player playing in there (maybe Amrabat can be that), so they can quickly force turnovers from there. I would try Amrabat in Casemiro's position for a few matches to make us more solid there, maybe play a box midfield and plainly ignore the width problem by putting Bruno on the right anyway.

All in all, I think all is not lost, but this squad and its structure is very weird. Not sure if our summer signings actually massively improved the team, and I am still unsure if it can be fixed quickly. Ten Hag still has some time to do it, but the clock is ticking quickly and I don't know if he can.

 

[the_cliff]

Whatever you say about the footballing structure (and it's shit - no question) the players aren't being coached well enough - and that's on no-one else but the manager.

We've been saying this for 10 years now. You'd think at some point it would come down to the players.

 

[santeria13]

Made same mistake as previous managers.
Move from non-club to mega (commercial) club. Got sold on Disneyland for adult ideology and thought they could literally buy Donald and Goofy to play fantasy football. Reality hits hard after 1 season.
Arnold was still fecking spineless for not keeping Rangsnick though. He's ETH's boss, it's not the otherway around.

We made a huge mistake not keeping Rangnick. He was a terrible manager, yes - but we all know he's a wordclass DoF and he was 100% right about needing to overhaul the whole team.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

We made a huge mistake not keeping Rangnick. He was a terrible manager, yes - but we all know he's a wordclass DoF and he was 100% right about needing to overhaul the whole team.

I disagree but it doesn't matter anyway as Rangnick wanted to get back into management. I'm not sure how we could have kept him on as a consultant while he's managing Austria even if we wanted to do.

 

[KevinJoh]

The only reason why I am against sacking ETH is that his replacement would be even worse as it would be picked by Murtough and Fletcher. With the knowledge they have we would find the worst possible solution. Probably someone who has good PR with YouTubers and Twitter fans like they did before.

 

[ManUtd1999]

But there's nothing of the previous season to suggest the club should have started as poorly as it has. Last season and given the managers quotes on improvement (in the cup run he mentioned the team hated losing) everything was going in the right direction. Yes the performances after winning the cup began to recline slightly but the team still had spirit. Everything suggested that this team should have kicked on this current campaign but the players look lost and void.

Not true, to be honest. As some people have pointed out here: we got 35 points in the past 21 games. This year, 9 points in 7 games, and so we finished the previous season with 26 points in 14 games. Not as bad as now, but not great either. Our play in the final third or so of the season wasn’t stellar at all.

I disagree but it doesn't matter anyway as Rangnick wanted to get back into management. I'm not sure how we could have kept him on as a consultant while he's managing Austria even if we wanted to do.

If ETH wanted him to stay, at least for one more year, probably he would’ve stayed. ETH wanted to have all the power from Day 1. It was his choice.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

This was my message in April 2023. We are in October 2023.

Welcome to the party. Anyone who had eyes would see what was going on. Now the results have started to unravel.

Exactly. What I've been saying all through.

The set-up of our team is too basic and too easy to play against.
And it's not luck other teams have better controls than us, it's our midfield. It's the root cause of all our problems.

Bring Scholes and Odergaard in this team, next season without even any other signing we win the league. A midfield of Casemiro, Scholes, Odergaard as a 10 will give us balance, recycling of the football, and control of creating chances going forward.

But now we have some poster midfielders who do nothing at all to recycle or control the game, with zero physicality or higher technical ability to mask their limitations.

Every game is a transition game.
Midfielders who can't hold the ball more than 5 seconds when pressed, either they fall over or get disposed or misplace a pass.
Midfielders who can't dribble, or run with the ball.


Our midfield doesn't offer ball progression, nor game control, nor pressing game, nor football recycling nor physicality/athleticism then you wonder why we get overrun everytime, it's just pure delusions from us the fans.

It's incredible that others can't see how obvious our midfield issues is the main problem we have had ever since.

My take on Ten Hag capabilities will be during summer, if he doesn't sign 2 competent midfielders then his obituary as a United manager will be short.

Football game is 90 minute affair, you need to get a plan (tactics) of how you will control the game for that long. If it was 10 minutes game then fair game, then be transition team but 90 minutes you need players and ways of how you will remain with the ball for most of the time, then use it effectively.

 

[BluesJr]

The success will begin when we don’t allow managers to get autonomy on signings.

 

[VP89]

But there's nothing of the previous season to suggest the club should have started as poorly as it has. Last season and given the managers quotes on improvement (in the cup run he mentioned the team hated losing) everything was going in the right direction. Yes the performances after winning the cup began to recline slightly but the team still had spirit. Everything suggested that this team should have kicked on this current campaign but the players look lost and void.

He did have a feck ton of injuries up until the last game, so I'd assume that provides some big context to the poor start. Wolves aside of course, where we had a good XI.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

If ETH wanted him to stay, at least for one more year, probably he would’ve stayed. ETH wanted to have all the power from Day 1. It was his choice.

Rangnick may have wanted to but I'm not sure the club would've felt comfortable with his main focus being the Austria job and his role at United being secondary.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Rangnick may have wanted to but I'm not sure the club would've felt comfortable with his main focus being the Austria job and his role at United being secondary.

I think the bigger problem would have arisen when Rangnick would rather lie down on the tracks than let them sanction 100M for Antony on his watch.

 

[Castia]

The owners and directors have a lot to answer for and the quicker the club is sold the better

But in this case ETH has to shoulder the blame. These are obviously his signings, it's his tactics, it's his team he's spent a lot of money on former colleagues that look terrible he cannot have any complaints

 

[NLunited]

Arteta gets five years to get it right, Ten Hag won‘t get that. The one thing that won‘t work is firing managers.

Things are shiit right now, but I don‘t want MU to become a carrousel for managers.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

6 month ago I said this.

There is nothing new to add. ETH refused to bin Bruno. He made him a captain. What to expect now.

With a changed midfield on Carabao cup midweek , it was full, of running, football recycling, simple passes, dynamism, attacks we even scored 3 goals..

Now Rashford is looking like another big big problem.
So ETH has 2 big problems to solve.

I had said, if ETH doesn't sort out the midfield structure and stability during the summer, results will unravel and he will be sacked. True to it, results have started to unravel this season even, not yet next season but you see how 4-6 results can unbalance a team going concern.

It is extremely vital, crucial, that he finds a way of our midfield being 3 man midfield, with DM (Case) + A press resistant dribbler, recycler + A Odergaard clone who recycle the football and has eye for a assist. This coupled with a striker hitting 20 league goals, we will have solved 90% of our problems.
A goalkeeper, if money permits would be added advantage.

Anything else apart from 2 genuine midfielders and 1 elite striker, we will be going round in circles blaming a new player every week. Maguire + McFred are no longer there to be blamed or accused but we still play badly. Yesterday Casemiro, Eriksen, Antony, Malacia, Weghorst all ETH players started the game but our play was no different from anything in yester years. It was tragic.

I will still say it, if ETH doesn't change our system to 433 he won't finish next season as United coach. Results will unravel and he will be under immense pressure and the screw will be turned. This 2 man midfield is the cause of our problems.

 

[RuudTom83]

The success will begin when we don’t allow managers to get autonomy on signings.

True...but sadly the club is miles away from having a good setup behind the scenes for that to happen.

Which is also something I don't see changing under the current owners.