Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Berbaclass]

Exactly. People think just bringinf a new shiny toy will solve everything. Glazers must love our fans

Of course they do, they love the blame being shifted from them at any opportunity and people calling for Ten Hag's head are doing just that.

Fans need to back the manager and crank up the pressure on them as much as they possibly can.

 

[Shunty]

Why is this even a thread? This is what they want us to talk about! Managers make differences in clubs etc but having a healthy environment for a manager to flourish is key. Look at potter great at Brighton left and went to Chelsea utter carnage sacked, their new manager de zerbi has come in and due to that set up has flourished even more so than potter, the reason we’re in this mess is above the manager, this is systemic it comes from the top down, the glazers are happy to get forth and have zero communication with the players fans or staff, who don’t know whether they’ll be employed if and when a take over happens. How can a player staff or kit man or cleaner give it their all when they don’t know if they have a job soon. I’d rather go down than sack this manager, it’s obvious to everyone with a brain it’s not him, it comes from the top. Glazers out let’s keep saying that rather than thi bs

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Exactly. People think just bringinf a new shiny toy will solve everything. Glazers must love our fans

I can't take anybody who says "shiny new toy" seriously. It's one of the Caf's favorite thought-terminating cliches.

 

[Berbaclass]

I can't take anybody who says "shiny new toy" seriously. It's one of the Caf's favorite thought-terminating cliches.

I don't see the issue

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Has De Zerbi ever been a DOF or a Chief Scout before? I don't think he has. Because for some absurd reason, every United manager is also expected to fulfill those two roles.

Even more important then that our next manager has experience of the PL and its players such as Neto who would be my RW choice.

I guess ETH will be given until Christmas to turn things around and introduce Amrabat, Mount and Höjlund to the team. The pressure will be unbearable if we are 15 points behind top 5 by then.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I don't see the issue

It's used ad nauseam in almost every thread, whether discussing the manager or our transfer strategy, to mindlessly put down any opposing view.

 

[The Hilton]

Ajax's system under ETH and the weak Dutch league were both very different to United under Ole and the superior PL, yet we hired ETH which worked well last season. Were you opposed to hiring ETH?

Of course it is very different to manage United or Brighton for the reasons you mention. You seem to believe that de Zerbi can only be successful under a few set of conditions, whereas I think he is a top young manager who can adopt and be successful at OT. I don't think there is a tailor made manager ideally suited to our chaos. You need to be very pragmatic and slowly adapt the team to your longterm tactics.

ETH had managed in a relatively high pressure environment at Ajax, where domestic success is expected, as well as coaching at Bayern. Not quite United, but still high pressure. On joining Ajax he took over a team that hadn't won the league for a few seasons, and rebuilt them into a domestically dominant team (as well as doing very well in Europe too), which is another example of what we needed.

De Zerbi by contrast had been at a few low pressure Italian clubs, getting sacked after 2 months in one, and relegated at the next club, before staying with Sassuolo for a few years, and then moving on the Shakhtar and being their only manager to not win the league for 5 years before or any since. Doing well at Brighton for a year and a bit is pretty much the only worthwhile thing on his CV, and we've seen with Potter moving on how the manager is just one cog in the machine there.

 

[Berbaclass]

Greenwood
Sancho
Antony
Maguire
Ronaldo
Takeover
Recruitment problems

Ten Hag has had to deal with more off-the-pitch drama in one year than probably most managers get in 10.

He was brought in because he is a good football coach. The club is so dysfunctional and badly run he's having to use a lot of his time dealing with non-footballing issues.

 

[Wezzaldo]

Jesus our fan base can be as rotten as our ownership.

 

[FortunaUtd]

I cannot even believe anyone would pose this question.
Five games into the second season, after a very good first season. People need to get their heads examined.

 

[ExoduS]

Jesus our fan base can be as rotten as our ownership.

Our fan base is hurting man, hurting really badly. None of us know what to do, we only know that our team is in terrible place for a lot of years now.

 

[Berbaclass]

It's used ad nauseam in almost every thread, whether discussing the manager or our transfer strategy, to mindlessly put down any opposing view.

Just because you say it is overused (don't really have an opinion) does not mean it is not applicable in some cases.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Just because you say it is overused (don't really have an opinion) does not mean it is not applicable in some cases.

The point is that there's never an actual retort. It's just a drive-by put-down to end the conversation. "You don't like our transfer activity? I'm sorry you can't get your shiny new toys." "Reservations about the manager? You just want a shiny new toy!"

 

[RedOrange]

Yeah that’s a good post. Very well argued. I’ve said before (probably too many times!) that I like our tactics and it is the execution that is causing us problems.

I think the specific change to this narrower set-up was driven as much by the availability of players as by the opposition. If Antony and Mount were available then 4141 / 3241 would probably be preferred but, again, the execution is critical - it’s supposed (I believe) to create a box in CM with one of the back four stepping into midfield; then the onus is on the wingers to track all the way back. Erik keeps referring to “compactness” in defence but I think he just means players following their rules and getting into effective defensive positions. With the 4141 we have to press higher, of course, which is preferable if it works.

Oh I think this gameplan was definitely based on the situation, namely that both teams were missing players and Brighton's full backs and wingers aren't especially athletic, so they weren't likely to burn us too often. I'd be a bit surprised if this was used against say, Arsenal because Saka can burn almost any LB in the world.

I don't know if we'll use this against Bayern, I suspect we'll go back to the usual formation with Mount and Amrabat on for Eriksen and McTominay and Bruno on the right. Davies will probably ruin our day if he's allowed too much space on the wing.

As for the players not getting the tactic, the horizontal pressing concept isn't terribly different from pressing vertically, but you may be right about the players not knowing what to do.

 

[Berbaclass]

The point is that there's never an actual retort. It's just a drive-by put-down to end the conversation. "You don't like our transfer activity? I'm sorry you can't get your shiny new toys." "Reservations about the manager? You just want a shiny new toy!"

That's only one context.

In the context of this thread, De Zerbi is currently the 'shiny new toy' in the premier league and of course, we aren't exactly great right now. There will inevitably at some point be some clamour to get him as a replacement. Which ignores all the logic meaning that it simply wouldn't work. It would be pretty similar to Ten Hag going from Ajax to United in fact.

 

[AshRK]

The point is that there's never an actual retort. It's just a drive-by put-down to end the conversation. "You don't like our transfer activity? I'm sorry you can't get your shiny new toys." "Reservations about the manager? You just want a shiny new toy!"

It is because people don't have any reasons or expectations of why or how changing another manager would solve the issues. People who just come with the point that let us sack the manager don't bother explaining how that would make this club compete with the top sides.

 

[pascell]

Ralf as a powerful DoF would have been a good decision IMO. Ironically, it would have helped EtH. Him insisting for Ralf to leave , and the two morons in charge (Arnold and Murtough) listening him and firing Ralf, is gonna be his downfall

The role Rangnick had post caretaker manager was an advisory role, so if he stayed and shit hit the fan, his head would've been the first to roll anyway. His ideas and decisions might not have even been listened to either, not of it's, but and maybes surrounding Rangnick but his role was never going to have any authority.

 

[Sarni]

I said to friends in preseason that if I was him, I'd have walked. Club failed him massively, leaving him with 4/5 players he clearly doesn't rate or want. Ultimately I suspect it doesn't really matter who's in charge with those parasites sucking out the little lifeblood the club has left. The fans ire and anger should be directed at the top, and nowhere else.

Yeah, because the players he has signed have been so amazing for him and us that the solution to our current issues would have clearly been to allow him to sign more players.

 

[OrcaFat]

Oh I think this gameplan was definitely based on the situation, namely that both teams were missing players and Brighton's full backs and wingers aren't especially athletic, so they weren't likely to burn us too often. I'd be a bit surprised if this was used against say, Arsenal because Saka can burn almost any LB in the world.

I think you're right about compactness, he likely means the players maintaining the shape and distance between each other in defence, which obviously includes

Yeah makes sense.

Just now I’m reconsidering what I said about EtH overestimating the players’ ability to grasp the tactics. I think probably he knows it’s hard for some of them but he’s willing to see it through. It’s us fans who overestimate the players tactical aptitude, perhaps!

 

[Berbaclass]

Yeah, because the players he has signed have been so amazing for him and us that the solution to our current issues would have clearly been to allow him to sign more players.

It shouldn't be his job to identify and sign players. That is the job of a functioning recruitment team, which we don't have.

When will people realise that we are behind the top teams in so many areas.

 

[OrcaFat]

That's only one context.

In the context of this thread, De Zerbi is currently the 'shiny new toy' in the premier league and of course, we aren't exactly great right now. There will inevitably at some point be some clamour to get him as a replacement. Which ignores all the logic meaning that it simply wouldn't work. It would be pretty similar to Ten Hag going from Ajax to United in fact.

I don’t think you can really put Brighton and Ajax in the same pot.

 

[Berbaclass]

I don’t think you can really put Brighton and Ajax in the same pot.

It's not a direct comparison, I was more suggesting that you are transitioning from one system and way of playing to a completely different one.

De Zerbi, thanks to Potter and the Brighton setup walked into a very structured environment like Ajax.

Ten Hag walked into the exact opposite of that.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Right, they're a good team they're going to break the tactic down a few times. The whole point of the narrow formation was to concede space down the flanks to encourage Brighton to play the ball there, then seal off the pitch vertically and press them against the touch line. I made some images:




Here's how they lined up when Brighton started. Brighton typically try to bait a press from this position, opening up space in the middle of the pitch and then exploiting that for quick attacking moves. United instead went narrow and blocked the middle of the pitch. Rashford and Hojlund made curved runs toward the centre backs to push them to move the ball down the flank. I'm not totally sure where Brighton's central forward players were because the camera didn't really show them that much, so I'm mostly guessing here. Onana also wasn't this high up the pitch, so you can ignore that bit. The diagram represents the shape, not the exact area of the pitch this usually happened.



(Forgive me, I made this image first and only figured out how to change the keeper's colours afterwards, and I'm too lazy to go back and redo it)

Once the ball was played into the wide area, United would attack the ball in a press like this, sealing the pitch off to one side in a vertical line. This worked pretty successfully and United stole the ball from them pretty frequently, especially in the first 70 minutes of the match. The goals occurred when this press failed, at which point the midfielders needed to track runners back, which they didn't do.

BTW this is not a particularly outside the box tactic, lots of teams do a mid/high press like this from narrow formations. IIRC Rangnick used this kind of 4-3-3/4-1-2-1-2 formation sometimes. Every single tactic is going to leave weak spots for the opponent to exploit, that's just the nature of football, and that's where the importance of work rate and situational awareness comes in (i.e., you need to track the fecking midfield runners). The opponent breaking your tactic a few times is just part and parcel of football and something you have to be able to deal with to win matches.

I am pretty sure that McTominay would have interfered the pass to Welbeck if he was sprinting not jogging. Very annoying that McTominay doesn't realize he is playing due to his pace and stamina.

 

[Tom Cato]

I will come back to this topic by the end of the season.

Unless the team finds their inner 2013-2014 Barcelona when the momens are at their darkest, Ten Hag wont last another 5 games.

The team relies on Rashford to score goals. No Rashford, no vibe.

 

[Appletonred]

So are we 1 other manager away from becoming title challengers? Absolutely ludicrous that Ten Hag is being ridiculed, he's the right man for the job, let the manager manage, and hopefully sooner than later we all get fit and proper custodians of the club who bring a far better culture for the manager to do his job, even if it gets far worse in the weeks and months ahead, we need to trust him to navigate through this uncertainty and instability without adding anymore to it by turning on a manager who took us to 2 cup finals and 3rd in the league, believe me, the problems at the club are far bigger than just the manager.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

He won’t come back for losing 3 out of his first 5, terrible performances, buying the wrong players, 7-0 Liverpool, 4-0 Brentford, 3-0 Sevilla, two seasons in a row with massive fitness issues at the start of the season, incoherent tactics, serious issues with pressing coordination and intensity and the players clearly not working for him.

Hardly dramatic. It’s just a matter of when now.

Nonsesne, what about all the good things he's done, whilst having to sort out all rubbish he has had thrown at him since he's been here. It's a crazy coversation to have at this point.

No one can yet say with any authority that Ten Hag isn't good enough for us.

 

[Sarni]

It shouldn't be his job to identify and sign players. That is the job of a functioning recruitment team, which we don't have.

When will people realise that we are behind the top teams in so many areas.

I have no idea what we agreed with him when he joined but he seems to have a free rein in picking targets and uses it to the maximum. We’ve spent close to £200m to sign his former players alone.

It is baffling that we have allowed a manager with zero idea about squad building to build a squad, but there are many things baffling about this club. To suggest we would have been better off if he’d simply been allowed to replace more players is however a bit naive when you consider the quality of our recruitment. Selling Maguire or McTominay would have simply resulted in spending even more money on inadequate players.

 

[Alvaro Maestre]

People already thinking about sacking? Are we Chelsea now?

 

[Berbaclass]

I have no idea what we agreed with him when he joined but he seems to have a free rein in picking targets and uses it to the maximum.

It is baffling that we have allowed a manager with zero idea about squad building to build a squad, but there are many things baffling about this club.

I agree of course and that is down to people like Joel Glazer or Richard Arnold. We are doomed to repeat past failures until we make a commitment to implementing the correct structure at the club.

 

[RedOrange]

Yeah makes sense.

Just now I’m reconsidering what I said about EtH overestimating the players’ ability to grasp the tactics. I think probably he knows it’s hard for some of them but he’s willing to see it through. It’s us fans who overestimate the players tactical aptitude, perhaps!

I honestly don't know. This may be controversial but suspect the best way to instill the kind of work rate, concentration and adherence to tactics required is pretty heavily based on the number of squad options the manager has. Most people aren't naturally inclined to doing things at this high a level of intensity. You need a lot of those kinds of players in the squad so the ones who aren't naturally inclined are forced to work hard and compete for a spot.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

People already thinking about sacking? Are we Chelsea now?

I don't think we should sack him, but this is not the argument you think it is. Almost every single sacking Chelsea made turned out to be the correct decision.

 

[jesperjaap]

ETH had managed in a relatively high pressure environment at Ajax, where domestic success is expected, as well as coaching at Bayern. Not quite United, but still high pressure. On joining Ajax he took over a team that hadn't won the league for a few seasons, and rebuilt them into a domestically dominant team (as well as doing very well in Europe too), which is another example of what we needed.

De Zerbi by contrast had been at a few low pressure Italian clubs, getting sacked after 2 months in one, and relegated at the next club, before staying with Sassuolo for a few years, and then moving on the Shakhtar and being their only manager to not win the league for 5 years before or any since. Doing well at Brighton for a year and a bit is pretty much the only worthwhile thing on his CV, and we've seen with Potter moving on how the manager is just one cog in the machine there.

This is a good point. Of coruse it doesnt mean either manager is or isnt the answer. If anything it alludes to the point a lot of people are making about ths importance of how the club is being ran and the position it is in at the time.

It seemed Potter was a fantastic manager but he failed at CHelsea....Guariola as good as he is I could never see winning the league breaking domestic dominance and in Europe with a team like Fergson did, again doesnt mean he is or isnt a better manager.

For me, I dot think Te Hag has done so well in the transfer windows and that goes for last season, but again the club has failed to raise moey through sales and we have seen from previous managers that they were not always able to get there primary or secondary targets at times.

I think Ten Hag did well last season, not brilliantly but well, still not convined either way as think he has done good things and others not well at all (again is that all on him or the club though).

This thread is way too reactionary....BUT, we have seen a couple of managers have a great first season and lose the dressing room, have a terrible second season and lose there jobs. I still think we have a decent first eleven and that things will improve....but not drastically, before the season started I had little confidence we finish in the top four with our transfer business compared to others, so the pressure could be on him in a few months

 

[OrcaFat]

It's not a direct comparison, I was more suggesting that you are transitioning from one system and way of playing to a completely different one.

De Zerbi, thanks to Potter and the Brighton setup walked into a very structured environment like Ajax.

Ten Hag walked into the exact opposite of that.

Oh, I totally misunderstood, sorry.

 

[Sarni]

People already thinking about sacking? Are we Chelsea now?

Virtually all top clubs sack their managers when they don’t deliver the results they expect. If anything we’ve been too slow doing that which has held us back since Fergie.

Not saying it’s the case here, at least not yet. This club is such a mess that I wouldn’t expect any manager to really deliver great results here but at least seeing a direction and improvement should be the minimum.

 

[JuriM]

 

[bstb3]

I agree of course and that is down to people like Joel Glazer or Richard Arnold. We are doomed to repeat past failures until we make a commitment to implementing the correct structure at the club.

This is why I dont understand what people think will change with a new manager. Structurally all the issues will remain. They won't be fully backed with regards to getting their first choice targets, or at least we will likely mess it up, and the squad will have even more players not suited to the new manager (or so we will say). What magically fixes all this with a new manager?

Root and branch change is needed to get us out of this perpetual cycle of hope and despair. That's not happening under the Glazers, so the only way out is when they go and hopefully, hopefully, the new owners care more for us as a football team than a financial asset. Everything else we do, every manager change, every new signing, is just tinkering around the edges and will never patch the hole the leeches have allowed to grow at the heart of MUFC. Sooner or later they need to be forced out, and I am very much worried the only way that happens at present is if the value is tanked by a really bad season or two - which they won't allow and ETH or whoever else is in charge at the time will be sacrificed to get the new manager bounce.

 

[OrcaFat]

I honestly don't know. This may be controversial but suspect the best way to instill the kind of work rate, concentration and adherence to tactics required is pretty heavily based on the number of squad options the manager has. Most people aren't naturally inclined to doing things at this high a level of intensity. You need a lot of those kinds of players in the squad so the ones who aren't naturally inclined are forced to work hard and compete for a spot.

Yeah, competition is essential. We actually will have fairly decent competition when the injured guys come back.

Implementing the tactics requires work rate and concentration. Having a good player after your place does focus the mind (or it should do). It’s annoying that some of them aren’t “professional” enough to do it anyway but, yes, human nature is a powerful force. We have to coerce them into applying themselves by instilling a healthy fear of losing their place.

 

[Berbaclass]

Interesting video.

I've seen people suggesting we got 'dominated' and 'dismantled' but I never really felt like that was the case too.

 

[Berbaclass]

This is why I dont understand what people think will change with a new manager. Structurally all the issues will remain. They won't be fully backed with regards to getting their first choice targets, or at least we will likely mess it up, and the squad will have even more players not suited to the new manager (or so we will say). What magically fixes all this with a new manager?

Root and branch change is needed to get us out of this perpetual cycle of hope and despair. That's not happening under the Glazers, so the only way out is when they go and hopefully, hopefully, the new owners care more for us as a football team than a financial asset. Everything else we do, every manager change, every new signing, is just tinkering around the edges and will never patch the hole the leeches have allowed to grow at the heart of MUFC. Sooner or later they need to be forced out, and I am very much worried the only way that happens at present is if the value is tanked by a really bad season or two - which they won't allow and ETH or whoever else is in charge at the time will be sacrificed to get the new manager bounce.

https://youtube.com/shorts/YyncMl85BDk?si=5zUjQMPBwP5kPAOW

 

[bstb3]

https://youtube.com/shorts/YyncMl85BDk?si=5zUjQMPBwP5kPAOW

I think he wasn't wrong, but look what happened after he said it. He was probably optimistic on the timeframes though.