Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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This Rashford issue is important. Rashford was sensational last season, he tired, but he essentially carried the attacking threat for a massive club. Garnacho also emerged. However, Rashford's game is limited, if, if he refuses to learn and feels he may be a little too big / and or fed up at the club. I am not suggesting he is at that stage yet, and I do feel for him because he has had no one, and I mean no one to assist until Rasmus arrived.

But.. Rashford needs to play with his head... he is fixated with his own needs and abilities. He is good enough to create many goals.. he needs to develop his left foot so he can offer a threat either foot/direction; he needs to attack the ball and be a threat in the air, as he began to last season to great, great effect; and he can drop deep and get us to play (like Kane does). Rashford has the ability to do all of that. But he needs help. And he needs his manager to manage him. I don't see that right now.

And I expect to see Pellestri, Hannibal, Garnacho a lot, lot, lot more now. No excuse.

ETH could lose the changing room if he doesn't address some of these emerging issues. He seems a little lost right now, just a little.
 
BluesJr said:
Nope. You don’t need time to make changes it’s been proven time and time again. It’s the consistency that takes time and the quality etc, but actual changes shouldn’t take long at all. Ten Hag has already failed it’ll just take some of you longer to see it.
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Let me remind you then. First game we won 5-1 against Cardiff city. We won our first 5 games. But it was clearly a short term rise in level of performance. It may be or may not be the same for Ange. Give time before judging good or bad.

I am just talking about Ange. Not saying anything about ETH.
 
Cassidy said:
Maybe he is not too scared. Maybe the manager understands Rashford is his best chance of a goal at the moment
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I'm sure this is it. You take off Rashford and who do you put in? Garnacho is hit and miss. Sancho is not there. Even an underperforming Rashford is better than anyone else we have.
 
OrcaFat said:
Okay, I get you now.

Well I think I’d just as well let EtH spend it and finish the job than give it to some other guy who might not want the players we just bought.
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If the next manager feels like he needs to dump more than one of ETH's acquisitions besides Casemiro and Eriksen, then he's the wrong candidate.
 
KGBhoy said:
I'm sure this is it. You take off Rashford and who do you put in? Garnacho is hit and miss. Sancho is not there. Even an underperforming Rashford is better than anyone else we have.
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There is a real danger with this. We don't know the instructions but if it is indeed Rashford not putting in a shift in his pressing from the front, indulging him will erode his authority. He will lose the other players pretty quickly.
 
Jeffthered said:
This Rashford issue is important. Rashford was sensational last season, he tired, but he essentially carried the attacking threat for a massive club. Garnacho also emerged. However, Rashford's game is limited, if, if he refuses to learn and feels he may be a little too big / and or fed up at the club. I am not suggesting he is at that stage yet, and I do feel for him because he has had no one, and I mean no one to assist until Rasmus arrived.

But.. Rashford needs to play with his head... he is fixated with his own needs and abilities. He is good enough to create many goals.. he needs to develop his left foot so he can offer a threat either foot/direction; he needs to attack the ball and be a threat in the air, as he began to last season to great, great effect; and he can drop deep and get us to play (like Kane does). Rashford has the ability to do all of that. But he needs help. And he needs his manager to manage him. I don't see that right now.

And I expect to see Pellestri, Hannibal, Garnacho a lot, lot, lot more now. No excuse.

ETH could lose the changing room if he doesn't address some of these emerging issues. He seems a little lost right now, just a little.
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Could not agree more. I think ETH is a brilliant coach. Let's see if I'm right or wrong.
 
mav_9me said:
Let me remind you then. First game we won 5-1 against Cardiff city. We won our first 5 games. But it was clearly a short term rise in level of performance. It may be or may not be the same for Ange. Give time before judging good or bad.

I am just talking about Ange. Not saying anything about ETH.
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Rushing to judge managers on the basis of early results is a modern trend. Building a guy up to tear him down at the first setback. Comparing ETH to the current flavour of the month - Ange, in this case - serves no real purpose that I can see. ETH is not a bad manager and he made the hard call with Ronaldo. I think he deserves time and backing. Sat was ugly but it can be turned around.
 
There is no magic cure out there who can come into the current setup and click his fingers.

Whatever you think of EtH as a manager...I hope we can all agree he is a better manager than Murtough is a DOF or the Glazer are as Owners.

He finished 3rd in his first season...leave the man alone haha.

Arteta finished 8th, 8th, 5th and 2nd
 
I think my biggest concern is that we are okay at setting up our initial press but the moment anyone changes anything in the game, the side cannot adapt.

City on the other side find solutions to different problems during the course of a game. I've never seen that with United.
 
So much of this is about context and perspective - the club is broken, years of Glazernomics having corroded pretty much all of its capabilities, at the same time as rivals, old and new, have developed the sort of models we struggle to compete with.

We are a very long way behind not just City, but also Arsenal and, at least whilst Klopp is still there, Liverpool.We aren't finishing ahead of any of those for the foreseeable but, more worryingly, we are at real risk of being overtaken by a bigger group of clubs: here right now, our rivals are Spurs, Newcastle, Brighton and Villa (Chelsea aren't in there for all the obvious: their ownership model is rapidly unravelling in front of us).

That's the context. Perspective is being competitive in that tier, having a decent showing in the UCL and - most importantly - showing we are starting to starting to develop a coherent, progressive model. Here, right now, that's the benchmark for ETH or anyone else.

I'm encouraged that he's made the right calls on Ronaldo, Maguire (overdue), Sancho (overdue) and DDG (very overdue...though Onana has been v iffy on what we've seen so far); worried about signings he seems to have prioritised (Anthony, Mount and, increasingly, Casemiro, all hugely expensive, all looking potentially very poor value); and getting concerned about how we are playing - or aren't playing - 12 months+ in.

But he needs to be given time and, as a fanbase, we need to accept where we are and what that means for us making progress, in a situation where we might finally rid ourselves of the owners, get rid of players where we just need to take the hit, and get in the calibre of executive leadership we've lacked for so long.
 
How can people still have 100% confidence in ETH after all we have seen over the last 6-7 months? In the 2nd half of last season we continously fell apart in the 2nd half of games after playing well in the first half and threw away points like at Spurs and Liverpool, Erik threw away the FA Cup by playing Bruno on the right of the front 3 in the final, our pre-season was completely misused, we signed Mount for 55m when our priority should have been a striker having also failed to address our lack of a number 9 last summer, our start to this season has been horrendous with the players even looking shattered against Wolves despite having 10 days off prior to that match, and his in-game management and sub usage is really poor like taking off our only Striker when 2-0 down at home and waiting until the 85th minute to bring on players like Garnacho and Pellistri who could have changed the game.
 
RedOrange said:
If this is still happening in February it could be worth questioning the manager but there are still a number of players who've had this exact problem of workrate and decision making with Mourinho, Ole and Rangnick, so I'm not sure that a different manager is going to make the difference there.
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Another lie that has been peddled here in this forum.


This was our starting 11 yesterday.


Andre ONANA 24
Diogo DALOT 20
Victor LINDELOF 2
Lisandro MARTINEZ 6
Sergio REGUILON 15
CASEMIRO 18
Scott MCTOMINAY 39
Christian ERIKSEN 14
Bruno FERNANDES 8
Marcus RASHFORD 10
Rasmus HOJLUND 11

Only Dalot, Lindelof, Scott, Rashy, Bruno have survived all the 3 managers mentioned. 6 players are new players, not under the previous managers.

Crucially, Dalot, Lindelof, Scott are understudy at United. They are not starters yet our issues have been consistent.

Rashy and Bruno have been the main stays in the team.

Last season as the season started, we lost 2 games in 5 games, now we've lost 3 games in 5 games. Same same trajectory but yet we still blame fitness, not tracking back.

Last season when Brighton beat us 2-1 in OT. Our lineup was

DDG
Dalot
Maguire
Martinez
Shaw
Scott
Fred
Bruno
Sancho
Eriksen
Rashford.

Only 6 players played that game, and yesterday's game.
The biggest indictment to ETH is even after adding 5 new players to that line-up and another 1 year of being with the other 6 the issues remain as they were on 7th August, 2022, we were outclassed completely.

Yet Brighton lost Caicedo, Mac Allister, Trossard, Sanchez, and their coach.



Probably, this is our level. Probably this is ETH level. Probably this is where we stand. We can't be blaming unknown aspects while the known aspect are being shielded.

Rashford Bruno are players who can't win 15 games on a bounce. They can't. They have never done it in their lives. That's our level.

Same as Arnold and John have never constructed a title winning team. That's why they give ETH all the power because they don't know how it's done.

Sadly, ETH doesn't seem to understand what it takes to win in EPL.

We've blamed Maguire, DE Gea, Lindelof, McFred, Martial for all our problems yet they don't play anymore while the issues we've had persist to date.

Even to be more brutal, we are now being overrun frequently. We have shipped in 10 goals same as Luton. - 4 is the goal difference now.

United now conceding 3 goals+ in matches is not an abnormal occurrence. We ship 4,5,6,7 goals like it's part of the script.

We are NOT coached properly. We have no plan. ETH really needs to wake up.
He has signed 10 players permanently, add the players he found here. A difference is needed in how the team plays.
 
Katy Cat said:
So much of this is about context and perspective - the club is broken, years of Glazernomics having corroded pretty much all of its capabilities, at the same time as rivals, old and new, have developed the sort of models we struggle to compete with.

We are a very long way behind not just City, but also Arsenal and, at least whilst Klopp is still there, Liverpool.We aren't finishing ahead of any of those for the foreseeable but, more worryingly, we are at real risk of being overtaken by a bigger group of clubs: here right now, our rivals are Spurs, Newcastle, Brighton and Villa (Chelsea aren't in there for all the obvious: their ownership model is rapidly unravelling in front of us).

That's the context. Perspective is being competitive in that tier, having a decent showing in the UCL and - most importantly - showing we are starting to starting to develop a coherent, progressive model. Here, right now, that's the benchmark for ETH or anyone else.

I'm encouraged that he's made the right calls on Ronaldo, Maguire (overdue), Sancho (overdue) and DDG (very overdue...though Onana has been v iffy on what we've seen so far); worried about signings he seems to have prioritised (Anthony, Mount and, increasingly, Casemiro, all hugely expensive, all looking potentially very poor value); and getting concerned about how we are playing - or aren't playing - 12 months+ in.

But he needs to be given time and, as a fanbase, we need to accept where we are and what that means for us making progress, in a situation where we might finally rid ourselves of the owners, get rid of players where we just need to take the hit, and get in the calibre of executive leadership we've lacked for so long.
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The context is us literally finishing above Liverpool 2 out of the last 3 seasons. Before he took over we had finished above Arsenal 2 out the previous 3 seasons. Fair enough we can’t win the league with City there but there’s no excuse for not getting the best out of what we have and kicking on from last season. To just sit there and list teams saying we can’t compete with them is stupid. ETH needs to do better.
 
Judas said:
Exactly. The idea of dropping Rashford right now is fanciful. We can’t afford to do that, because even at his most greedy, he’s one of our few hopes right now.
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Yep. Imagine dropping Rashford when we've had the assorted nonsense with Greenwood, Sancho and Antony.

Garnacho and Pellistri "could" be the future, but you suspect neither are anywhere near ready to be regular starters.
 
RedOrange said:
Rashford is viewed as undroppable by the board and most of the supporters. All it takes is him pulling a Sancho and the manager is out, no matter who it is. Dropping him for any reason other than some sort of automatic infraction like being late to practice will tighten the noose around the manager's neck, even a brand new one.

That being said while his effort at pressing and tracking back leaves a lot to be desired I think if we get Amrabat and Mount on the pitch together, his lack of work rate off the ball might be less of an issue.
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In our history, how many players were afforded that status?
(way too young to remember from the previous years) Busby, Cantona, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Ronaldo, Rooney.
If we want to put Rashford there, are we sure we are aiming for what we need to aim for?
 
I cant work out the thinking of going with a different set up yesterday, something we haven't seen before just after an international break, something that surely we haven't really had alot of time on the training ground to get right.

It did show aswell we looked very disorganised at times. Goes down as a mistake as me.

3 defeats from 3 tricky games so far this seasons and a little lucky to take points from the home bankers aswell. Although we have been on the wrong side of tight VAR decision in the defeats so there is that.

Way to early in the season to start talking about sacking ETH. Lets see where we are by Christmas unless the wheels compleatly fall off that is.

Talks of the title were always a little fanciful this season. Top 4 again, cup runs and a noticeable change in style to a more attacking high press side were the expectations.
 
Teja said:
I think my biggest concern is that we are okay at setting up our initial press but the moment anyone changes anything in the game, the side cannot adapt.

City on the other side find solutions to different problems during the course of a game. I've never seen that with United.
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Yeah but the players are not even adapted to their basic rules yet. Later, when it’s drilled into their bones, they probably will be able to see things and adapt. We have to give the poor guys a chance to learn and develop into the players they need to be in this system. Some of them will find that they just can’t do it and will get shipped off somewhere else.
 
Longshanks said:
I cant work out the thinking of going with a different set up yesterday, something we haven't seen before just after an international break, something that surely we haven't really had alot of time on the training ground to get right.

It did show aswell we looked very disorganised at times. Goes down as a mistake as me.

3 defeats from 3 tricky games so far this seasons and a little lucky to take points from the home bankers aswell. Although we have been on the wrong side of tight VAR decision in the defeats so there is that.

Way to early in the season to start talking about sacking ETH. Lets see where we are by Christmas unless the wheels compleatly fall off that is.

Talks of the title were always a little fanciful this season. Top 4 again, cup runs and a noticeable change in style to a more attacking high press side were the expectations.
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Yeah, fair comments.
 
Longshanks said:
I cant work out the thinking of going with a different set up yesterday, something we haven't seen before just after an international break, something that surely we haven't really had alot of time on the training ground to get right.

It did show aswell we looked very disorganised at times. Goes down as a mistake as me.

3 defeats from 3 tricky games so far this seasons and a little lucky to take points from the home bankers aswell. Although we have been on the wrong side of tight VAR decision in the defeats so there is that.

Way to early in the season to start talking about sacking ETH. Lets see where we are by Christmas unless the wheels compleatly fall off that is.

Talks of the title were always a little fanciful this season. Top 4 again, cup runs and a noticeable change in style to a more attacking high press side were the expectations.
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They are looking fanciful every season now reality is hard to swallow that we are more just a team fighting for top 4 not a title winning club anymore.
 
Longshanks said:
I cant work out the thinking of going with a different set up yesterday, something we haven't seen before just after an international break, something that surely we haven't really had alot of time on the training ground to get right.

It did show aswell we looked very disorganised at times. Goes down as a mistake as me.
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The tactic was fine. Despite having lots of possession Brighton struggled to get through the midfield (especially for the first 60-70 minutes, they just scored on 3 of the 4 or 5 clear cut chances because our midfielders do not track back.
 
Shake Jism said:
My reply being slightly facetious sort of went over your head, didn't it?

And here was me thinking the :lol: would have given it away :annoyed:

I would have gone for poch over EtH in the first place, but after last season EtH deserves the chance to turn this around... but I do worry that the momentum is gathering pace in the wrong direction.
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I wasn't disagreeing, just further stating that sacking EtH right now, regardless of his shortcomings, or not, will only make things much worse.

We need Glazers and current hierarchy gone. Until that happens even if Erik loses next 10 games, sacking him is useless
 
More concerned with him getting poached once he realizes that we are not a serious club capable of challenging.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Another lie that has been peddled here in this forum.


This was our starting 11 yesterday.


Andre ONANA 24
Diogo DALOT 20
Victor LINDELOF 2
Lisandro MARTINEZ 6
Sergio REGUILON 15
CASEMIRO 18
Scott MCTOMINAY 39
Christian ERIKSEN 14
Bruno FERNANDES 8
Marcus RASHFORD 10
Rasmus HOJLUND 11

Only Dalot, Lindelof, Scott, Rashy, Bruno have survived all the 3 managers mentioned. 6 players are new players, not under the previous managers.

Crucially, Dalot, Lindelof, Scott are understudy at United. They are not starters yet our issues have been consistent.

Rashy and Bruno have been the main stays in the team.

Last season as the season started, we lost 2 games in 5 games, now we've lost 3 games in 5 games. Same same trajectory but yet we still blame fitness, not tracking back.

Last season when Brighton beat us 2-1 in OT. Our lineup was

DDG
Dalot
Maguire
Martinez
Shaw
Scott
Fred
Bruno
Sancho
Eriksen
Rashford.

Only 6 players played that game, and yesterday's game.
The biggest indictment to ETH is even after adding 5 new players to that line-up and another 1 year of being with the other 6 the issues remain as they were on 7th August, 2022, we were outclassed completely.

Yet Brighton lost Caicedo, Mac Allister, Trossard, Sanchez, and their coach.



Probably, this is our level. Probably this is ETH level. Probably this is where we stand. We can't be blaming unknown aspects while the known aspect are being shielded.

Rashford Bruno are players who can't win 15 games on a bounce. They can't. They have never done it in their lives. That's our level.

Same as Arnold and John have never constructed a title winning team. That's why they give ETH all the power because they don't know how it's done.

Sadly, ETH doesn't seem to understand what it takes to win in EPL.

We've blamed Maguire, DE Gea, Lindelof, McFred, Martial for all our problems yet they don't play anymore while the issues we've had persist to date.

Even to be more brutal, we are now being overrun frequently. We have shipped in 10 goals same as Luton. - 4 is the goal difference now.

United now conceding 3 goals+ in matches is not an abnormal occurrence. We ship 4,5,6,7 goals like it's part of the script.

We are NOT coached properly. We have no plan. ETH really needs to wake up.
He has signed 10 players permanently, add the players he found here. A difference is needed in how the team plays.
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Spot on, Erik has brought in his own players and still hasnt implemented any kind of playing style or game plan and we are still seeing the same issues in games that we saw under Ole and Ralf.

People are still defending Erik but how can you defend a manager that has failed to get a team playing good consistant football after 12 months in his job and trains the team so hard they always look tired and can only perforn for 45 minutes in matches after spending 450m and makes so many bizarre team selections and subs, Spurs only hired Ange last summer but are now playing good football and are unbeaten under him despite losing their best player and failing to replace him.
 
Offside said:
The context is us literally finishing above Liverpool 2 out of the last 3 seasons. Before he took over we had finished above Arsenal 2 out the previous 3 seasons. Fair enough we can’t win the league with City there but there’s no excuse for not getting the best out of what we have and kicking on from last season. To just sit there and list teams saying we can’t compete with them is stupid. ETH needs to do better.
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It's not stupid. Sure, we've finished ahead of Liverpool for 2 out of the last 3 seasons, they're not as good as they were - and for a time they were probably better than City - but, by any credible assessment, they are quite a bit better than us. A smallish squad on quality in depth, a bit suspect defensively but way ahead on attacking prowess, with an improved midfield and with a brilliant manager. Arsenal have a stronger squad, the experience of last season and momentum on an upward trajectory.

There is not much excuse for not kicking-on, maximising the best of what we've got and being competitive.That's how we judge ETH at the end of the season and that's where I agree he needs to do better. Perspective is me saying 3 other teams are just better - managers, squads, recent experience, momentum, playing style, the way they are run - and others are getting better. We should be competing, it was always going to be challenging, the first few games tell me it will be hard.
 
RedOrange said:
The tactic was fine. Despite having lots of possession Brighton struggled to get through the midfield (especially for the first 60-70 minutes, they just scored on 3 of the 4 or 5 clear cut chances because our midfielders do not track back.
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It was kind of narrow and when Brighton managed to get down the sides they caused us problems. The match was decided on fine margins but I think we have to admit Brighton had greater control and deserved to win.

Probably the tactics weren’t the main problem. Players not doing their jobs was the problem. Real shame about the Hojlund “goal” (can’t argue with the decision but upsetting, nonetheless).
 
RedPed said:
Because he hasn't been the worst player in the team by a long stretch and digging him out like that was really unnecessary and just adding more drama to an already drama-filled season. It's fine singling a player out when the team is winning. I also don't see any difference in players not doing it in training and not doing it on the pitch. So if players constantly fail to follow instructions on the pitch, all that training means jack and he should call them out too. Sancho had nothing to do with that shit show today.
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He's been anonymous his entire time here. The last 2 weeks have been his biggest impact and he's our highest earner.

If he isn't showing up in training and isn't turning up on time, ETH has to do something. He gave him about a month off last year so he's tried the carrot and I don't blame him trying the stick.

Sancho wasn't at fault for yesterday's shit show but he's responsible for all his non-performances.
 
Has some goodwill in the bank. Plus there’s clearly a toxic culture issue here. I’ve said in the Sancho thread. Wouldn’t surprise me if he outlasts Hag. That’s the issue, player power. Most players outlast our managers.

It would’ve been great to put Ralf upstairs and all the players who disrespected him was flogged.
 
Berbaclass said:
More concerned with him getting poached once he realizes that we are not a serious club capable of challenging.
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Exactly my thoughts. He's just about the only positive I see at the club just now. I'm glad he's the man that's trying to manoeuvre is through the mess. I'd love to see what he could do free of all the crap going on around him.
 
Andy_Cole said:
Has some goodwill in the bank. Plus there’s clearly a toxic culture issue here. I’ve said in the Sancho thread. Wouldn’t surprise me if he outlasts Hag. That’s the issue, player power. Most players outlast our managers.

It would’ve been great to put Ralf upstairs and all the players who disrespected him was flogged.
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Ralf as a powerful DoF would have been a good decision IMO. Ironically, it would have helped EtH. Him insisting for Ralf to leave , and the two morons in charge (Arnold and Murtough) listening him and firing Ralf, is gonna be his downfall
 
Keep him.

I don't know what exactly is at the heart of our problems as a club. It clearly comes from the top but it feels like anything we touch turns to shite.

Regardless I think hes a good manager and dont see anyone available out there id trust to do better. I honestly think any manager would struggle here.

Question is - why can the likes of De Zerbi and Potter plug into Brighton and do well? I don't think they're any better than ETH. It's a structural issue.
 
just 5 games in and already 9 points off top spot. We should beat Burnley but I doubt we will beat Palace. We look like a mid table team.
 
Erik ten Hag is one of the best coaches Ajax ever had. Problem is: don’t make him responsible for the transfers as well!! At Ajax he had Overmars to do this. That was a great combo, those 2. Why does ETH have such a big influence on the transfers at Manchester? Or do you have a technical director for this? Btw I am fan of Ajax and Manchester. Terrible times for me.
 
Stack said:
just 5 games in and already 9 points off top spot. We should beat Burnley but I doubt we will beat Palace. We look like a mid table team.
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Burnley is away. Never bank on us winning away games under Ten Hag.
 
OrcaFat said:
It was kind of narrow and when Brighton managed to get down the sides they caused us problems.
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Right, they're a good team they're going to break the tactic down a few times. The whole point of the narrow formation was to concede space down the flanks to encourage Brighton to play the ball there, then seal off the pitch vertically and press them against the touch line. I made some images:




Here's how they lined up when Brighton started. Brighton typically try to bait a press from this position, opening up space in the middle of the pitch and then exploiting that for quick attacking moves. United instead went narrow and blocked the middle of the pitch. Rashford and Hojlund made curved runs toward the centre backs to push them to move the ball down the flank. I'm not totally sure where Brighton's central forward players were because the camera didn't really show them that much, so I'm mostly guessing here. Onana also wasn't this high up the pitch, so you can ignore that bit. The diagram represents the shape, not the exact area of the pitch this usually happened.



(Forgive me, I made this image first and only figured out how to change the keeper's colours afterwards, and I'm too lazy to go back and redo it)

Once the ball was played into the wide area, United would attack the ball in a press like this, sealing the pitch off to one side in a vertical line. This worked pretty successfully and United stole the ball from them pretty frequently, especially in the first 70 minutes of the match. The goals occurred when this press failed, at which point the midfielders needed to track runners back, which they didn't do.

BTW this is not a particularly outside the box tactic, lots of teams do a mid/high press like this from narrow formations. IIRC Rangnick used this kind of 4-3-3/4-1-2-1-2 formation sometimes. Every single tactic is going to leave weak spots for the opponent to exploit, that's just the nature of football, and that's where the importance of work rate and situational awareness comes in (i.e., you need to track the fecking midfield runners). The opponent breaking your tactic a few times is just part and parcel of football and something you have to be able to deal with to win matches.
 
Who would come in and do better? Players, Managers, anyone we touch for a while now crumbles at our club. I'll cling to hope that we can rid ourselves of those american parasites and turn around one of these days.
 
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